129 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaldaen]

PS: This approach will also mean needing really good audio and cutscene people... so if anyone knows any... let me know.

[SusanStoHelit]

Jaldecir wrote...

So I'm not exactly sure what your point is.

My point was, from memory, that the suggested origin would not be the only one that had some knowledge of darkspawn, or that had some sort of investment (emotional or personal or whatever) in ridding Ferelden of them. In fact, that's the very reason I found this origin the most compelling. It has emotional depth. The others have much less of it.

In fact, the city guard one has very little of it - I find it 'meh' and boring and lacking in 'oomph' compared to the other two as they now stand. I have no interest in playing a 'cop'. Denerim holds little or no appeal to me as a setting/origin. It would give a new origin to allow another playthrough, and that's good. But the others are just more compelling - in my opinion.

[PatT2]

The human commoner origin ended up in a secret graveyard! lol I am looking for a thread about items you don't find until your 7th playthrough...like the human origin graveyard

[Jaldecir]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

My point was, from memory, that the suggested origin would not be the only one that had some knowledge of darkspawn, or that had some sort of investment (emotional or personal or whatever) in ridding Ferelden of them.

Human noble: about Howe-Cousland
Mage: about Harrowing/Jowan
City Elf: about Vaughan and getting married
Dalish Elf:  about human and being sick
Noble Dwarf: about the family affair (king, and princes)
Dwarf Commoner: about running errands for the big bad boss

If you see all origins, there's nothing that is directly related to the darkspawn at all. Why? Because the origin is meant to show the introduction about who you (main character) are in your normal life before you become a Grey Warden which changes your life because by then, you'd start dealing with darkspawns which you previously didn't.

In fact, that's the very reason I found this origin the most compelling. It has emotional depth. The others have much less of it.

It's totally fine that you have a different preference than me. My point has never been that this story is better than that story or whatnot. My point is simply comparing the involvement of darkspawn itself during the character origin. For me, the origin is about the normal life, not about the darkspawn. If you (and/or Jaldaen) felt differently, that's fine with me, and I have no problem with it.

I just disagree that normal life that doesn't involve darkspawn to have lack of emotional depth. Playing as a Cousland to see pretty much the whole household being slaughtered definitely has emotional depth. Playing as a Mage to see your friend pretty much revealing that he's a blood mage also has emotional depth.And so on.  Emotional depth is created from the story itself, not just whether it's related to the darkspawn or not. The psychological battle for the city guard to be good or corrupt, and the whole being framed can be very very emotionally deep if done correctly.

In fact, the city guard one has very little of it - I find it 'meh' and boring and lacking in 'oomph' compared to the other two as they now stand. I have no interest in playing a 'cop'. Denerim holds little or no appeal to me as a setting/origin. It would give a new origin to allow another playthrough, and that's good. But the others are just more compelling - in my opinion.

I have no problem with you having different preferences than me on this either, but I disagree with the comment about city guard being meh and boring. To me, the fact that it's unrelated to the darkspawn actually adds more depth to it, just like the original Bioware made origins.

Compare the following:
1. Human noble  -> you want to beat the darkspawn AND there's something personal against Howe
2. Dwarf noble -> you want to beat the darkspawn AND there's something personal at Orzammar (and Bhelen)
3. City elf -> you want to beat the darkspawn AND there's something personal at Denerim Alienage
4. City guard -> you want to beat the darkspawn AND there's something personal against Howe (or whoever framed you)
5. Blight Refugee and Militia Man -> you want to beat the darkspawn AND nothing else. Just the darkspawn.

See what I mean? Both Blight Refugee and Militia Man focused only on the darkspawn and have nothing else on the side. And with the game offering little to no interaction with the darkspawn themselves, there's little to no room to bring depth to the interaction between the main character and the darkspawn other than just killing each other.

Now this is not to say that you aren't allowed to like Refugee or Militia ideas. I have zero problem with you liking them more than the city guard idea. I'll emphasize that it's totally up to you what you like and not like, but my main disagreement is your  reasoning about how empty the city-guard is while it's actually the one that has the most depth if done correctly by Jaldaen. By not including the darkspawn in the origin, there's more room to explore because of way more character interaction between humans, and the freedom available outside the darkspawn plot line.

[Ryanubet]

gota say city guard that bribe money will be good for starting equipment

[SusanStoHelit]

I see what you mean, I did in the first place, I was just tired and it probably didn't come across quite the way I meant it, which was kinda tongue in cheek.

I've played all the origins - most of them 2 or more times. I know what I found compelling and what I didn't in them. And in which cases that initial impetus lasted - and in which it didn't. They each have something to recommend them. Several somethings usually. But I didn't find those ties you're looking for either compelling (for the most part), or that they took up much game time.

For instance, once you get out of the human noble origin you never see your brother until the post-coronation scene. You don't go back to highever. You can't even talk about your family to anyone, or look for your brother, only tell a few people he's missing. And as for Howe, apart from a few cutscenes where he appears that have nothing to do with you, you get to kill him in a two minute fight. Big deal. So the AND was the origin - kill Howe - see Fergus at end.

I suppose, then, my point is that the Origin gives you a motivation (yes) but there is very little in the way of tying it into the story as a whole. Most people you meet don't know who you are, except that you're a Grey Warden, and when they find out (if they find out) they brush it aside as being unimportant next to being a Grey Warden. I know why this has to be so, imagine trying to include all the possible dialogue variations to make each origin intricately intertwine into the story. But since that is the case, the fact that there's no AND doesn't bother me much.

I would prefer an origin that is completely different to any existing one. Something that gave an entirely different setting AND that gave me a valid reason for wanting to fight the darkspawn. Most of the DAO origins have you not actually WANTING to fight them - you are forced to become a Grey Warden to save your life, or escape imprisonment, or oppression, or whatever. The human noble does it to live - and to get revenge on Howe. I'd like an origin where your character actually WANTS to kill darkspawn, defeat the blight, stop the Archdemon, for personal reasons. Not because they have no choice. Since almost all of the story and game is focused on doing those things, why not have an origin that allows you to roleplay that?

I hope I've put it more clearly this time?

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 08 janvier 2010 - 08:09 .

[devilsgrin]

the dalish origin is actually the only one where the Darkspawn are a direct influence upon your character and they are the key instigator of your character becoming a Grey Warden.

[Maximus741000]

@Jaldecir, in my ealier post concerning the milita origin scenario, I suggested that the Darkspawn were captured by agents of Loghain, and wanted to assinate an Arl who was commanding officer of your infantry group and coould have potentially toppled Loghain's rule, but did not want to make it look like any of his agents' men did it, (take Howe's attack on Highever). I installed the character of Ser Cuathrien as the commoner PC's personal goal.

The idea I had was that she was a recruiter for Cailan when you first meet her, and later she uses a horde of captured or possibly diverted darkspawn to make it appear that this particular Arl was killed by darkspawn, whilst using her own men to kill any survivors, including the Human Commoner. The PC later find's Cuathrien and challenges her, but she escapes and kills your brother. I justified the idea by saying that Loghain was taking desperate measure to ensure his enemies were killed, plus I never liked Cauthrien.

[Jaldecir]

For instance, once you get out of the human noble origin you never see your brother until the post-coronation scene. You don't go back to highever. You can't even talk about your family to anyone, or look for your brother, only tell a few people he's missing. And as for Howe, apart from a few cutscenes where he appears that have nothing to do with you, you get to kill him in a two minute fight. Big deal. So the AND was the origin - kill Howe - see Fergus at end.

I fully agree with this, and this is also why I personally think that Bioware dropped the ball on this part. However, when we related to Jaldaen's mod, we're simply talking about concept, because the mod hasn't been made, and therefore, there is no execution yet. So in human noble's case, I will say that it has great concept with tons of potential, but poor execution in how Bioware made that depth to become so shallow by pretty much making Howe and Fergus redundant.



Had Bioware made things deeper when it comes to Howe and Fergus as human noble (maybe add a unique mid-game quest depending on origin?), then the execution would've been as great as the concept.



Now we go back to Jaldaen's mod, the execution hasn't been done yet. Of course he has ideas and the in-game voice will play a part as well in determining what can/not be done by Jaldaen. But speaking on concept itself, the potential to add more depth is definitely there due to the non-darkspawn related origin. It's a case of Jaldaen's execution of the mod that matters to determine whether the city-guard origin fall to the same shallow "AND" part as Bioware's or not.



Also, while Bioware made the AND part to be so little, is having no AND part actually better? I'm not sure that I can feel that way. To me, a little bit of AND part is still better than having none at all. But again, that's probably just me.

Most of the DAO origins have you not actually WANTING to fight them - you are forced to become a Grey Warden to save your life, or escape imprisonment, or oppression, or whatever. The human noble does it to live - and to get revenge on Howe. I'd like an origin where your character actually WANTS to kill darkspawn, defeat the blight, stop the Archdemon, for personal reasons. Not because they have no choice

I disagree a little on this part. You are right that becoming a Grey Warden was more like a "way out of the trouble" instead of something personal. But it is meant to be the event that made the Warden and Duncan to have an important bond between them. Duncan, to the Warden, is very important because he pretty much saves your life. Thus, when the darkspawn killed Duncan at Ostagar, it became personal. You do want to end the blight and kill the darkspawn because they killed your savior (Duncan). The event at Ostagar was the turning point from you as "I don't really want to be a Grey Warden" into someone who is like "Let's go kill darkspawns and end the Blight because now I'm ready to really be a Grey Warden". If you've already wanted to kill the darkspawn from the start, the event at Ostagar will lose a bit of its value.

Since almost all of the story and game is focused on doing those things, why not have an origin that allows you to roleplay that?

This is actually quite questionable too. While the game is about the Blight, I actually find the game to put way more emphasis on non-Blight related stuff. If people are honest enough to themselves, they will easily see that the game is mainly about finding allies (with their non-Blight related problems) and bringing down Loghain (who is easily the main villain of the game instead of the Archdemon) with ending the Blight as the side story that only shows up at the beginning and the very end.



I guess in the end we'll just have to agree to each other that we simply have different preference to consider whether something is good or not. I'm fine with that, and it has been quite enjoyable to see things from different perspective =)

@Jaldecir, in my ealier post concerning the milita origin scenario, I suggested that the Darkspawn were captured by agents of Loghain, and wanted to assinate an Arl who was commanding officer of your infantry group and coould have potentially toppled Loghain's rule, but did not want to make it look like any of his agents' men did it, (take Howe's attack on Highever). I installed the character of Ser Cuathrien as the commoner PC's personal goal.

If this is included in the mod, I'd definitely like the Militia Man more than before. I think Ser Cauthrien is a character that very underused by Bioware. She could've been so much more important but somehow left with so little to do in the game. Adding her as a "target" is an interesting thing to have for me. Though on the flip side, I've always had a soft spot for her because I can understand a bit about her mostly blind loyalty to Loghain. Not that I agree with her, but I understand if she did what she did.



Putting Ser Cauthrien as the target for the main character of Militia Man will definitely bring an even more grey color to her being a villain. I totally love grey villains. Of course, at the same time, I also see the potential of including Ser Cauthrien for the "one who framed the city guard" role too if needed to be.

[Gtacatalina]

All 3 sound great. For me I'd love to play as the blight refugee.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Maximus741000 wrote...

@Jaldecir, in my ealier post concerning the milita origin scenario, I suggested that the Darkspawn were captured by agents of Loghain, and wanted to assinate an Arl who was commanding officer of your infantry group and coould have potentially toppled Loghain's rule, but did not want to make it look like any of his agents' men did it, (take Howe's attack on Highever). I installed the character of Ser Cuathrien as the commoner PC's personal goal.

The idea I had was that she was a recruiter for Cailan when you first meet her, and later she uses a horde of captured or possibly diverted darkspawn to make it appear that this particular Arl was killed by darkspawn, whilst using her own men to kill any survivors, including the Human Commoner. The PC later find's Cuathrien and challenges her, but she escapes and kills your brother. I justified the idea by saying that Loghain was taking desperate measure to ensure his enemies were killed, plus I never liked Cauthrien.

Weaksauce. The very idea that they could capture and control enough darkspawn OR would go to such trouble. Easier to just use your own troops to attacsk that Arl (possibly using darkspawn weapons). After all, who is gonna know? Also, trying to turn Cuthrien into some kind of villan is a bad move IMHO, goes agasint her character.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Jaldecir wrote...

I disagree a little on this part. You are right that becoming a Grey Warden was more like a "way out of the trouble" instead of something personal. But it is meant to be the event that made the Warden and Duncan to have an important bond between them. Duncan, to the Warden, is very important because he pretty much saves your life. Thus, when the darkspawn killed Duncan at Ostagar, it became personal. You do want to end the blight and kill the darkspawn because they killed your savior (Duncan). The event at Ostagar was the turning point from you as "I don't really want to be a Grey Warden" into someone who is like "Let's go kill darkspawns and end the Blight because now I'm ready to really be a Grey Warden". If you've already wanted to kill the darkspawn from the start, the event at Ostagar will lose a bit of its value.

If you bothered to read the forums, you'd notice that quite a few peopel hate duncan, because tehy don't look at this as "saving".
So no, wanting to kill darkspawn from te start doesn't cause Ostagar to losoe it's emotional value.

[Jaldecir]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If you bothered to read the forums, you'd notice that quite a few peopel hate duncan, because tehy don't look at this as "saving".
So no, wanting to kill darkspawn from te start doesn't cause Ostagar to losoe it's emotional value.

What you're saying just doesn't make sense. So what if "a few people hate Duncan"? What about those who don't hate Duncan? What about those who consider Duncan as "saving" the Warden (Elf City would be in jail/dead, Mage would be jailed, Cousland would die, etc). The act itself isn't exactly intended to save the main character. After all, Duncan is in it to recruit people, not to do charity.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AGain, how does that deminish the emotional impact of Ostagar? If anything, it enhances it. you loose even more to the Blight.

[Maximus741000]

Lotion Soronnar wrote..


Weaksauce. The very idea that they could capture and control enough darkspawn OR would go to such trouble. Easier to just use your own troops to attacsk that Arl (possibly using darkspawn weapons). After all, who is gonna know? Also, trying to turn Cuthrien into some kind of villan is a bad move IMHO, goes agasint her character.

 I did have doubts about the darkspawn before, and I considered the greater possiblitity of the use of mercenaries wielding darkspawn weapons and depositing darkspawn corpses on the field.

The reason why I wanted Cauthrien to be the Coomner's enemy is becuase she's not only on of Loghain's allies, but she is genuinely a nasty person. Ultimately it's a her blind loyalty to Loghain which allowed her to carry out some of is worst deeds. What's to say that she couldn't be conviced by Loghain that the fictional Arl was becoming greedy and decided to mutiny when Ferelden's distracted by war, as there are many men who would use even the occasion of a Blight to further their own ambitions.

[SusanStoHelit]

Loghain and his clique are a side issue - they must be dealt with and punished. As must Howe, Bhelen, whoever. But, if you are a Grey Warden, you should be about protecting Ferelden from the darkspawn and the blight. That's what your hero Duncan keeps saying.

So it would be nice if ONE origin actually let us play that way. Explicitly. That character would have a closer bond with Duncan than any other - a oneness of purpose, a joint goal, a shared vision of a Thedas free from the darkspawn forever - or we'll damn well die trying!

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 08 janvier 2010 - 11:06 .

[Khayness]

City Guard is really neat! Great potential for the "I didn't even want to be here in the first place!" RP stuff. Sometimes it isn't good to be a hero

[twintalons]

I like the Blight Refugee, mainly because it seems quite different from all the origins we already have. It would be nice to want to join the grey wardens, rather than to HAVE to join to save your life for once!

[Tekbear]

the city guard sounded the best to me. although i miss a bit of dramatic katharsis in there.

[Jaldaen]

Jaldecir and Susan,



Thanks a bunch for your civilized conversation/debate about why you like the City Guard or Blight Refugee origins better. As stated by both of you, both of these origins offer something unique and this is one of the reasons I'm having a hard time choosing between them. There are pros and cons to both approaches and ultimately I'll have to weigh them all out and make a final decision. However, I am grateful for all your feedback because your comments make clear what people are looking for from this mod and that will be helpful going forward.



Thanks,

Joseph

[Jaldaen]

Maximus,



On my first play through I hated Cauthrien, too... and killed her on sight in the Arl Howe's Estate. However, on my second playthrough I realized that although she believed in Loghain and put her trust in him, she didn't actually agree with all his methods. I hadn't noticed that it was her who questioned his decision to pull out of Ostagar and leave Cailan to his death. Also in my second playthrough I allowed myself to be captured by her to avoid unnecessary bloodshed and when I arrived at the Landsmeet Cauthrien confronted me and instead of fighting her I talked to her and discovered her doubts about Loghain and in the end she let me past in order to save Loghain from himself. Since really gave me a lot of insight into her character... she seems like a person who is loyal to her lord, but has her doubts. Still, at the beginning of the game, she could probably be convinced that a particular arl was a traitor that needed to be dealt with.

[Maximus741000]

Thank you for the clarification, I admit I didn't see Cauthrien as having as many redeeming aspects as I first thought. I also concede to not killing her out of practical technicalities, the capture quest was easy and fun. And the fact that she is one of the hardest bosses in the game comparable to the High Dragon and the Archdemon, may have also contributed in some way to my frustration.



But ultimately it's you decision on what you want to do.

[Dapliran]

I certainly don’t want to step on the OP toes with this post, but the refugee scenario put forth sort of got the creative juices flowing. Feel free to use any, all or none of this.  I have the PS3 version, so at this point, I couldn't do anything with it anyway.
 
First off, I think that this would be a good origin to allow the player to be able to pick any of the three classes (the player could have been a mage raised in secret). I’m thinking that the scenario would play out something like this:
 
It would start in the player’s village on a normal day. You’ll get a nominal quest or 2 from your wife (or someone from your family). After completion of these quests, there is an attack on the village by darkspawn. You want to stay and fight for your home, but your father (your mother was already dead a long time ago) makes you leave with your wife and kids to see them to safety, while he stays and delays the darkspawn while you escape. As you leave the village you look back and see him get an arrow through the chest and the town burning.
 
It’s been a few days since the attack and the caravan is on the road towards Lothoring. You and a few other capable refugees are off in the woods looking for food. During the hunt you meet Duncan, the Grey Warden, who you tell of your plight and flight and he tells you of the Wardens and how he looking for recruits. After what happened at your village you are exceedingly tempted to join up, but your love and duty to your wife and children win out. 
 
After the meeting and the successful hunt. You return to the caravan. During the night, the caravan is attacked by bandits. After a frantic fight, you go back to your family to find them just killed by the head bandit and his Lts. You then fight.
 
After the battle, you collapse from exhaustion and grief. You are woken by Duncan who says that he saw and heard signs of battle and came as quickly as he could but arrived only during the battle with the leader. He tells you that you are the only survivor of the entire caravan and was very impressed with your abilities.
 
In a very Luke/Obi-Wan type of scene you make reference to the fact that there is nothing in the world for you, that you want to help in the fight against the darkspawn, plus others that would do harm and if he would consider you as a recruit. Duncan seeing talent agrees to your request at being a recruit. It’s then off to Ostagar.

[Jaldaen]

Dapliran,



Thanks for the ideas, I've added them to my story notes.

[Jaldaen]

Update: I'm almost through compiling all of duncan's dialogues into one handy word document. Hopefully, I will finish up with the Ostagar dialogues tomorrow. I should be able to cobble together Duncan-based conversations (and an origin intro) from the dialogues I have, but it'll be difficult to do. There are only so many unique words Duncan uses in his dialogues and so I'll be limited to those when building conversations. This means that Duncan's lines won't be the most ground-breaking ever, but they should be serviceable. However, one thing is clear to me... I will need a really good sound editor/splicer for this mod to work. So if you are one or know one who would be interested, then please let me know.

Thanks,

Joseph