300 réponses à ce sujet

[Kileyan]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Pedrak wrote...

I agree.

Not as annoying as the "combat-triggering conversations break your party formation in spite of the fact that you wanted your mage to be on the other side of the room", but still a pretty lame design choice.

Yeh this is a mainstay of Bioware games since way way back. You ever tried to play a stealth character or a mage who stays behind his two stout warriors and cleric? LOL cutscene, you are now visible and standing in front of the bad guy chatting. What you were stealthed, cast invisibily, silence and invis 10' radius, nice plan, haha.

Sometimes its worth the chat breaking up your plan for story, but as cutscenes became more common, it became just plain silly the number of insignificant encounters that trigger the ruination of any stealther because of chat chat chat scenes, that again, only have one outcome, the fight that you wanted to start on your terms.

[thats1evildude]

One could argue that this is a viable tactic of bosses, as part of the challenge in defeating them is that they choose the battlefield and terrain that suits their needs.

The Ancient Rock Wraith gains nothing by letting you flee to other parts of the Primeval Thaig where it cannot move as easily. So why shouldn't it close off your escape routes?

Besides, I'll fight you on whatever terms you like. My reaction to being unable to escape is not so much "Oh no I can't run away" as it is "I'm not trapped in here with you! You're trapped in here with ME!"

Crib from the greats, gentlemen.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 11 décembre 2012 - 01:59 .

[GloriousDame]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If you want an encounter to be difficult, fine, but achieve that difficulty without changing the rules of the game world arbitrarily.  Having an encounter be unexpectedly trivial is better than having an encounter be arbitrarily nonsensical.

Very well said, OP.
Not only do games that do this lose credibility, but although it is such a small detail, it cheapens the playability of the game itself because it seems like a cop-out to finding other ways of making the game more difficult.

[AppealToReason]

I think it has to do with AI pathing of sorts. I noticed that in ME specifically there would be invisible lines enemies couldn't cross when fighting in longer hallway-ish type sections versus rooms where the enemies would go everywhere. I only found this out as a Vanguard since I was charging and it made some parts super easy

[Herr Uhl]

thats1evildude wrote...

One could argue that this is a viable tactic of bosses, as part of the challenge in defeating them is that they choose the battlefield and terrain that suits their needs.

The Ancient Rock Wraith gains nothing by letting you flee to other parts of the Primeval Thaig where it cannot move as easily. So why shouldn't it close off your escape routes?

Right, then convey that it locks the door, collapses a tunnel or whatever. That is the point.

[thats1evildude]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Right, then convey that it locks the door, collapses a tunnel or whatever. That is the point.

I don't think that's his actual point. I think Sylvius' argument is that he should be able to retreat to a point where the bad guys either can't follow or have a hard time following and he can snipe them at his leisure.

Which is exactly why the bosses close off your escape routes.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 11 décembre 2012 - 02:16 .

[TheRealJayDee]

Yeah, I think it's about having a good reason in the context of the game's world not being able to move around freely in such situations. "Being able to move around freely" does of course include the option to use the enviroment to gain advantage in combat.

[Sylvius the Mad]

thats1evildude wrote...

One could argue that this is a viable tactic of bosses, as part of the challenge in defeating them is that they choose the battlefield and terrain that suits their needs.

We should we presuppose the existence of boss fights at all?

The Ancient Rock Wraith gains nothing by letting you flee to other parts of the Primeval Thaig where it cannot move as easily. So why shouldn't it close off your escape routes?

If it can, it should.  But those routes should not close merely for gameplay reasons.  Note my extensive use of the word "arbitrarily".

My concern here is that the doors close merely because the designers want the combat encounter to unfold in a certain way - they want to enforce a specific gameplay experience upon the player - and they're willing to break the rules of the setting to do it.

That's never okay.  Every aspect of the game should be subservient to the coherence of the game's setting.  The lore comes first.  The mechanics are part of the lore.  No aspect of gameplay or narrative should ever violate the lore.

[Sylvius the Mad]

thats1evildude wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Right, then convey that it locks the door, collapses a tunnel or whatever. That is the point.

I don't think that's his actual point. I think Sylvius' argument is that he should be able to retreat to a point where the bad guys either can't follow or have a hard time following and he can snipe them at his leisure.

If the rules of the setting prior to that encounter would allow such a tactic, then yes, I should be able to do that.

How we defeat any given enemy is none of the developers' concern.

There is no justification for an incoherent setting.

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
If the designers actually did think that we wouldn't use chokepoints, then they would have no reason to lock the doors behind us.

The idea, I think, is to force players to use aggro.

d4eaming wrote..
I must be playing wrong,
because my party always ends up all over the place, mobs chasing the
rogue across the map, three smashing on the mage, one dps knifing
another mob in the back, and the tank holding only one enemy to himself,
and typically not even the strongest one.

Always run back to a choke point. You want to be have enemies funelling at you. Put your back against a wall, and then you can basically let lose. A lot of skills (as I recall) buff you when your party is close. Always have hold on.

Wulfram wrote..
Also, the advantage you gain in DA2 by
avoiding the inconvenient spawns behind you is something of an exploit
IMO. There's no good reason why the enemies would choose to jump down
from the rooftops at the same place even though you're not fighting
there any more.

But even if they jumped into your party, you could still handle that. It would be, of course, even sillier if they fell from the sky to break your formation (in the DLCs they came from clear pathways), but there's absolutely no reason that a tactical retreat to a chokepoint shouldn't be possible.

thats1evildude wrote...
The Ancient Rock Wraith gains nothing
by letting you flee to other parts of the Primeval Thaig where it cannot
move as easily. So why shouldn't it close off your escape routes?

That fight was stupid because it was all about guessing the AoE range of it's slow-moving arm. Least favourite boss fight ever (in a Bioware game).

[Fredward]

This can be easily explained.

The pixies did it.

[The Hierophant]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

This can be easily explained.

The pixies did it.

Close but no cigar, as it was Resident Evil's former night shift janitor. Remember how the bodies of the monsters in the first 4 games would miraculously disappear after you left an area?

Well his only source of income now is locking the doors behind would be adventurers after Capcom laid him off due to the new monsters evaporating before the players eyes.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 11 décembre 2012 - 05:50 .

[Sir JK]

I wonder if this issue isn't less about how fights are designed/level design and more about pathfinding and AI. That the game sipmly cannot challenge you properly if you do this because it simply cannot handle you blocking it's pathfinding. I recall one game where the most effective tactic involved crossing an invisible line on the floor over and over since it sent all melee opponents running around the entire chamber for pathfinding reasons.I suspect that similar issues could occur with doorways, that the mobs suddenyl have to take enormous detours (while being shot by you), gatheering up in huge group that block one another's access, just plain sitting there and letting themselves get hit and similar.

That the closed doors isn't as much there to stop you from leaving as much as to prevent the enemy from ruining itself in "difficult" terrain.

Just speculation though.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If the designers actually did think that we wouldn't use chokepoints, then they would have no reason to lock the doors behind us.

The idea, I think, is to force players to use aggro.

Why do they care how we play?

That fight was stupid because it was all about guessing the AoE range of it's slow-moving arm. Least favourite boss fight ever (in a Bioware game).

I didn't like it because it was based entirely around realising that the AoE burst attack was blocked by environmental features, something that had never been true of any other AoE attack in either game.

I learned the physics of Thedas: AoE effects are always of consistent shape and size, regardless of obstacles.  Spells can easily pass right through walls, doors, pillars, and mountains.  And then the Rock Wraith encounter doesn't work like that.  Really?  Was that encounter designed by someone who had no knowledge of the game's mechanics at all?

[Kidd]

So basically, Sylvius, you don't dislike the idea of doors locking in themselves. What you dislike is there being no excuse for it in the setting, right?

Does this mean you were totally fine with the scene in Mark of the Assassin, where your path backward (and forward as well) was stopped by the sudden appearance of portcullis as activated by those you're about to fight?

This has never been a problem for me immersion-wise, but I like when it's done like in MotA regardless. I guess it's one of those things where I'm so used to games not doing it perfectly that I excuse them for not giving an excuse for the event, yet when I do get it it's really nifty.

[Shelondias]

Varric wants his portrayal of Hawke to be as bad-ass as possible.
Bad-asses don't flee.
If they do it's only once and no one minds because damn, said badass just wasted a giant made of corpses and a psychotic templar queen with reaper beams and a golden army.

Modifié par Zondergrod, 11 décembre 2012 - 08:49 .

[Uccio]

Pedrak wrote...

I agree.

Not as annoying as the "combat-triggering conversations break your party formation in spite of the fact that you wanted your mage to be on the other side of the room", but still a pretty lame design choice.

Agreed. regarding those discussion videos, I allways enjoyed games like IcewindDale where the approaching npc would talk to the nearest character be it the pc or some partymember. And the one who was talked to would do the talking.

[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If the designers actually did think that we wouldn't use chokepoints, then they would have no reason to lock the doors behind us.

The idea, I think, is to force players to use aggro.

Why do they care how we play?

I trimmed the portion about the boss fight, because wanting internal consistency is perfectly understandable.

Caring about how your players overcome your challenges, however, is an integral part of challenge design. Good challenge design will allow a player to overcome any given challenge in multiple ways, particularly with permutations along any given avenue, but ultimately, it is on the designer to anticipate how a player might go about overcoming the challenge to appropriately gauge the difficulty of that challenge.

This also ties into ensuring that the player learns the critical skills necessary to complete further challenges. Using choke points is an easy method to trivialize encounters that permit it in both Dragon Age games, but does nothing to prepare the player for the vast majority of encounters they will face. However, proper threat management is intended to be a critical player skill, so an encounter that breaks versimilitude but forces the player to develop that skill is better designed than an encounter that preserves the verisimilitude of the environment but allows the player to abuse a tactic that will not serve them in further gameplay.

That being said, an encounter that both requires the development of critical player skills and preserves the versimilitude of the environment is a much, much better designed encounter, and certainly possible. And the aforementioned Ancient Rock Wraith encounter fails to do either - it encloses you in an arbitrarily defined arena, and the primary skill necessary is to be able to identify safe havens during its AoE attack, which is never used again.

Obviously, just my take, and it is almost 4 a.m. as I'm posting this. But hopefully it's some food for thought.

[Orian Tabris]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Encounters in games do this a lot.

See this people! Even Sylvius knows how to spell "a lot"! And he's... you know...
!

[Wulfram]

In Exile wrote...

But even if they jumped into your party, you could still handle that. It would be, of course, even sillier if they fell from the sky to break your formation (in the DLCs they came from clear pathways), but there's absolutely no reason that a tactical retreat to a chokepoint shouldn't be possible.

It's an unintended strategy that the game can't handle probably and therefore makes the combat much easier than is intended.  That's a reason for it not to be possible.

It also may not make sense in the story.  It's kind of silly if the heroes burst through the door to stop the villains villainous villainy, and then, after exchanging a few barbs, they immediately run out of the room again.  The AI, being dumb, will just charge after the PC into the convenient chokepoint, but the villains should really just shrug and get back on with villaining.

[labargegrrrl]

i think if they explain the blocked exit through the plot in some way, then it would be fine.

for example, the deep roads and the fade in both games (as well as some of their dlc's) actually give you some explanation for your being trapped somewhere. we all got that was just part of the plot.

even if that's a level, rather than an area, i think the principle could still apply to those smaller zones. they could even use something as simple as a minion visibly shutting a door or blocking an exit when a fight starts, rather than just the magical doors-all-shutting-for-no-reason.

i certainly would swear at my screen a little less, and that's never a bad thing.

[nightscrawl]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If the designers actually did think that we wouldn't use chokepoints, then they would have no reason to lock the doors behind us.

Yes, I thought this too. It seems like there are two reasons for this restriction: (1) to restrict the player from using the environment too heavily to their advantage (chokepoints), and (2) what I imagine is a technical limitation of wanting the fight to be contained in a single area where the devs can account for all variables of player and NPC (read: the boss) movement.

Let's take the Deep Roads final boss, the Ancient Rock Wraith. That fight is specifically designed so that you make use of the pillars to block his huge AOE ability. They want you to fight in that room so that you use those pillars, and so the boss can be manipulated by the game to go to specific areas and do his stuff. In that fight the entrance/exist are blocked off by a force field. Now, imagine that it wasn't there and we were able to kite the boss to wherever. There would be pathing issues, the boss might get stuck in a wall, and so on.