190 réponses à ce sujet

[UKStory135]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

I'm of the opinion that it isn't Tactical Cloak or Infiltrators per se, but rather careless character design. As some people have mentioned, you give any character three outstanding powers and they all have synergy with one another, it's going to be an extremely powerful character. It becomes a balance issue when a single class seems to have more of these characters than any other.

Keep in mind though that Tac Cloak gives the player the ability to cast a second power from within cloak and share a common cooldown with cloak. You're essentially getting two powers for the price of one. Because of this, BioWare really should have been more careful in the powers they assigned to characters with Tac Cloak. Infiltrators really shouldn't be getting upper-tier powers that they can cast for free from Tac Cloak. These powers should have been relatively weak, or should have had less synergy.

BioWare made a design error by giving the Infiltrators too many outstanding synergistic powers.

So characters with power synergy are a bad thing?  If every character had synergy like the Vorcha Hunter, Balance wouldn't be the problem, the lack of a player base would be.

[Jebel Krong]

 the only people that make a 'crisis' out of anything are a bunch of crybabies on the forums when they should just get on and play this co-op game.  Biotics are just as powerful as any weapon class - including infiltrators, the best teams generally have a mix of classes/abilities. The real problem is people not knowing how to play properly, spec their character and most grievous: don't use (correct) mods.

[cgj]

Cyonan wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

The Infiltrator class puts a cap on how powerful and effective weapons can be on non-Infiltrators. When balancing weapons, part of what BioWare has to consider is the highest possible amount of damage a weapon can do when used with particular classes, builds, and mods. They're not going to have a weapon that can one-shot an Atlas with the right build, for example. Because of this, Infiltrators limit the strength of weapons in the game, and they indirectly make the overall pool of weapons weaker than they would otherwise be.

As I've pointed out multiple times in the past, Adrenaline Rush allows for much higher damage spikes than Tactical Cloak does and yes, that includes Sniper Rifles. If Tactical Cloak's damage alone is being considered broken then Adrenaline Rush should be considered really broken.

You should see what the AT-12 + Marksman does to an Atlas while playing off-host =P

I've fired off 7 shots in a row with that setup. Add in piercing and it gets a tad insane.

was gonna say that
but the thing is that, i think, it's not cloak's damage that bugs them
it's the damage + the synergy + 2 other great powers (the HS lacks)

make cloak always get a full cooldown and
make it so you can't shoot powers while cloaked but with a bonus power evo  instead of the duration evo (and undo the nerf to duration)
and infiltrators will be dealt with

[Cyonan]

cgj wrote...
was gonna say that
but the thing is that, i think, it's not cloak's damage that bugs them
it's the damage + the synergy + 2 other great powers (the HS lacks)

make cloak always get a full cooldown and
make it so you can't shoot powers while cloaked but with a bonus power evo  instead of the duration evo (and undo the nerf to duration)
and infiltrators will be dealt with

Well that was in response to specifically the "they need to limit weapon potential because of TC". In reality they don't because AR spikes higher than TC alone does =P

The problem with those nerfs is that again, the TGI and GI will just shrug it off and at worst become roughly on par with other characters. Meanwhile the balanced Infiltrators will begin to struggle because you just nerfed them when they didn't need it to begin with. What this means for my QFI:

> I have to drop 25% multiplicative sniper damage just to be able to use my mediocre damage ability, Sabotage.
> I still do smaller damage spikes than my Human Soldier, only now it's less frequent than my Human Soldier as as well.

I would have very little reason to take my QFI over my Human Soldier, other than the fact that I really like Quarians.

[Feneckus]

Cyonan wrote...

As I said in your thread, let's not pretend that it's the entire Infiltrator class that's doing it here. Doing that would be just as laughable at claiming that the GI/TGI have had no negative impact on the game as a whole =P

The fact that the nerfs were targeted at the GI/TGI doesn't mean the other infiltrators are balanced. 

The MQI is as broken as the GI. He has a much better debuff and can annihilate spawns in seconds with his nades.

The SI has roughly the same damage output as a GI and he's durable thanks to energy drain. He has literally no weaknesses.

The FQI and HI are somewhat underwhelming compared to the other infiltrators but they still have a lot going for them. The FQI is the only character who can use Sabotage. The HI kinda makes the Female Quarian Engineer obsolete, although the FQE is a lot better at killing swarmers, I'll give her that.

Cyonan wrote...

As I've pointed out multiple times in the past, Adrenaline Rush allows for much higher damage spikes than Tactical Cloak does and yes, that includes Sniper Rifles. If Tactical Cloak's damage alone is being considered broken then Adrenaline Rush should be considered really broken.

You should see what the AT-12 + Marksman does to an Atlas while playing off-host =P

I've fired off 7 shots in a row with that setup. Add in piercing and it gets a tad insane.

Infiltrators are balanced because :

1) One specific class can kill something faster with a few select weapons
2) Other classes can exploit glitches.

That makes sense.

Modifié par Feneckus, 11 décembre 2012 - 07:05 .

[Poison_Berrie]

UKStory135 wrote...

So characters with power synergy are a bad thing?  If every character had synergy like the Vorcha Hunter, Balance wouldn't be the problem, the lack of a player base would be.

I think the point isn't against synergy, it's against being mindful to understand the synergy between powers. 
In other words Tactical Cloak has a lot of synergy with any damaging abilities, because it can be cast during cloak and benefit from it.
Or giving a character with TC several damage increasing powers (GI has Passive, Hunter Mode, Proximity Mine along side TC).

[SOMETHING_FOR_NOTHING]

Jebel Krong wrote...

 the only people that make a 'crisis' out of anything are a bunch of crybabies on the forums when they should just get on and play this co-op game.  Biotics are just as powerful as any weapon class - including infiltrators, the best teams generally have a mix of classes/abilities. The real problem is people not knowing how to play properly, spec their character and most grievous: don't use (correct) mods.

what i dont get is

they cry OP but YET EVERYONE HAS THE SAME set of kits so they can play the same OP class as you.....only reason why they cry so dam much is by now everyone has a favourite character that they go to and always play...and if there god chosen character isnt as OP as your favorite character becuase they dont care for anything else they want it nerfed.


It is the general feeling i am getting from the forums, which is god dam stupid and dumb....in a co-op game.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

UKStory135 wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

I'm of the opinion that it isn't Tactical Cloak or Infiltrators per se, but rather careless character design. As some people have mentioned, you give any character three outstanding powers and they all have synergy with one another, it's going to be an extremely powerful character. It becomes a balance issue when a single class seems to have more of these characters than any other.

Keep in mind though that Tac Cloak gives the player the ability to cast a second power from within cloak and share a common cooldown with cloak. You're essentially getting two powers for the price of one. Because of this, BioWare really should have been more careful in the powers they assigned to characters with Tac Cloak. Infiltrators really shouldn't be getting upper-tier powers that they can cast for free from Tac Cloak. These powers should have been relatively weak, or should have had less synergy.

BioWare made a design error by giving the Infiltrators too many outstanding synergistic powers.

So characters with power synergy are a bad thing?  If every character had synergy like the Vorcha Hunter, Balance wouldn't be the problem, the lack of a player base would be.

Of course not.  I would love for all characters to have the power synergy of a GI.  But the fact remains, we're no where near this.  Characters with synergy across all 3 powers are the exception rather than the norm.

[doozerdude]

I'm just bored with the ability, all it's simply a damage booster. Boring...

Would like some stealth mechanics implemented in ME3 MP

[Gylukios]

SOMETHING_FOR_NOTHING wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

 the only people that make a 'crisis' out of anything are a bunch of crybabies on the forums when they should just get on and play this co-op game.  Biotics are just as powerful as any weapon class - including infiltrators, the best teams generally have a mix of classes/abilities. The real problem is people not knowing how to play properly, spec their character and most grievous: don't use (correct) mods.

what i dont get is

they cry OP but YET EVERYONE HAS THE SAME set of kits so they can play the same OP class as you.....only reason why they cry so dam much is by now everyone has a favourite character that they go to and always play...and if there god chosen character isnt as OP as your favorite character becuase they dont care for anything else they want it nerfed.


It is the general feeling i am getting from the forums, which is god dam stupid and dumb....in a co-op game.

Plenty of people do not and never will have a Turian Ghost, or whatever specific character you mention.

[Maria Caliban]

Crimson Vanguard wrote...

A summary for Tactical Cloak Crisis:

The Tactical Cloak Crisis was a period of major turmoil and armed conflict, fought between the Empire of Infiltrator and the Planes of Nerf, and encompassing the events of the Nerf of Stimpak, the Nerfers Invasion of BSN, the Battle of Hunter Mode, and the Battle of the Stimpak. The Tactical Cloak Crisis is noted as being a significant event in Mass Effect 3 history, as it marks the close of the Infiltrator Era and the end of the Infiltrator Dynasty. The Crisis affected nearly all parts of BSN, however the bulk of the fighting occurred within the province of Balance Suggestion.

The Tactical Cloak Crisis happened long before the Turian Havok and Ghost appeared, and was in fact brought about by the great Battle of Krysae.

[TheLastAwakening]

<.< the nerfers are sneaky. They are trying to nerf TC before Drell inf is released...that is the great  crisis.

Modifié par TheLastAwakening, 11 décembre 2012 - 07:23 .

[cgj]

Jiovanie- wrote...

Think about that for a second; if I use tactical cloak for but a second, why do I have to suffer an entire 3 second cooldown? Let's go with my N7 Shadow for instance, both her SS and ES have a cooldown of about 2.46 seconds, but my TC makes me suffer the cooldown of 3 seconds(let's assume I didn't spec into bonus power.). Why do I have to use a long cooldown when I only used 1 second of that power's benefits? 

Flamer works much like Tactical Cloak, you don't pay for the entire cooldown just because you flash fired it now do you? Tactical cloak doesn't directly damage anything; it's used to boost the damage of your attacks while being somewhat "cloaked" from the enemy's radar. It's nothing like any of the other powers to make it perform under the same conditions. It's an entirely unique power compared to others, and it was already nerfed. I

the first one wasn't a serious suggestion, but  you could still say you have to wait the full CD cause you broke cloak out of your own free will for a damage boost, your post makes it clear that you  think  cloak's boost  is its primary function when it should have never been its primary function

when i use marksman for just 2s, why do i need to sit through the duration and the coolddown to use proxy mine.  doesn't make sense to me though

but needing a bonus power evo to use powers from cloak should have
always been there just like it should have been there on marksman too

Modifié par cgj, 11 décembre 2012 - 07:35 .

[cgj]

Jiovanie- wrote...
Marksman =/= Tactical Cloak, you seem to be ignoring the fact that Marksman applies more buffs than Tactical Cloak can. It's not just a damage boost; it's also there for utility and when you use the entire cloak you suffer the entire cooldown. Marksman works like Adrenaline Rush, so it cannot be compared to Tactical Cloak. Only Flamer can, but I don't see anyone asking for a Flamer nerf despite Flamer being more useful than Tactical Cloak damage wise.

sorry i edited my previous post before yours before cause my english fails me when trying to make serious posts
i wasn't really trying to compare marksman to cloak either

cloak should be utility before damage boost
so when you break cloak for the damage boost you get the full cooldown

i don't have the words to explain it properly, i'm sorry,

try to think of it as converting your remaining seconds of cloak into a damage boost, it then makes sense that you used your entire cloak and should get the entire cooldown


edit: oh yeah and as you may have guessed if you understand my vision of things (sorry i'm so bad a expressing my ideas)

i also think that it would nice if the damage boost from cloak scaled
as in

the sooner you break cloak the better the damage boost is

Modifié par cgj, 11 décembre 2012 - 07:47 .

[Red Panda]

DarkseidXIII wrote...

It wont be civil if I can help it. Unless its civil war. I hate all nerfducks. I hate all balance whiners. I hope Bioware stops paying attention to this game and works exclusively on M.E. 4. Then I can play in peace.

I'd be amused if this forum got closed too.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Jiovanie- wrote...

cgj wrote...

Jiovanie- wrote...

Think about that for a second; if I use tactical cloak for but a second, why do I have to suffer an entire 3 second cooldown? Let's go with my N7 Shadow for instance, both her SS and ES have a cooldown of about 2.46 seconds, but my TC makes me suffer the cooldown of 3 seconds(let's assume I didn't spec into bonus power.). Why do I have to use a long cooldown when I only used 1 second of that power's benefits? 

Flamer works much like Tactical Cloak, you don't pay for the entire cooldown just because you flash fired it now do you? Tactical cloak doesn't directly damage anything; it's used to boost the damage of your attacks while being somewhat "cloaked" from the enemy's radar. It's nothing like any of the other powers to make it perform under the same conditions. It's an entirely unique power compared to others, and it was already nerfed. I

the first one wasn't a serious suggestion, but  you could still say you have to wait the full CD cause you broke cloak out of your own free will for a damage boost, your post makes it clear that you only think of cloak as a damage boost while it should have never been its primary function
it's kinda like when i use marksman for just 2s, why do i need to sit through the duration and the coolddown to use proxy mine.  doesn't make sense to me either
but needing a bonus power evo to use powers from cloak should have
always been there just like it should have been there on marksman too

Marksman =/= Tactical Cloak, you seem to be ignoring the fact that Marksman applies more buffs than Tactical Cloak can. It's not just a damage boost; it's also there for utility and when you use the entire cloak you suffer the entire cooldown. Marksman works like Adrenaline Rush, so it cannot be compared to Tactical Cloak. Only Flamer can, but I don't see anyone asking for a Flamer nerf despite Flamer being more useful than Tactical Cloak damage wise.

You can't toss out a Proximity Mine while Flamer, Marksman, or Adrenaline Rush are active...

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 11 décembre 2012 - 07:56 .

[shodiswe]

Tactical cloak isn't overpowered.

Stimpack on the TGI might be tough. But on the other hand, while I do enjoy playing the TGI it's not like I feel it's all powerful. And as sugested the Harrier is a good weapon for the TGI since it stacks with their assaultrifle bonus to their special cloak, and turians get extra gun stability meening they can easily line of a hail of headshots. The Harriers are terrible at ammo management however, especialy if there is more than one harier person playing at the same time, and on Platinum it would be a serious issue.
Nevermind if there are more grenade users in the game

As for Hunter mode on the GI, it needs a reductio to the shield penalty imo, 50% decrease in shields makes it squishier than a Volus and with no shield boosts And both has got a cloak (the Volus cloak allowes for normal shield regeneration while its active btw And no powerreuse issues )

[Feneckus]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

You can't toss out a Proximity Mine while Flamer, Marksman, or Adrenaline Rush are active...

Why do you even bother talking to a guy who thinks Flamer is more useful than Tactical Cloak ?

[Jay Leon Hart]

SOMETHING_FOR_NOTHING wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

 the only people that make a 'crisis' out of anything are a bunch of crybabies on the forums when they should just get on and play this co-op game.  Biotics are just as powerful as any weapon class - including infiltrators, the best teams generally have a mix of classes/abilities. The real problem is people not knowing how to play properly, spec their character and most grievous: don't use (correct) mods.

what i dont get is

they cry OP but YET EVERYONE HAS THE SAME set of kits so they can play the same OP class as you.....only reason why they cry so dam much is by now everyone has a favourite character that they go to and always play...and if there god chosen character isnt as OP as your favorite character becuase they dont care for anything else they want it nerfed.


It is the general feeling i am getting from the forums, which is god dam stupid and dumb....in a co-op game.

Question - do you like missile glitchers?

[Jay Leon Hart]

Jiovanie- wrote...
Flamer works much like Tactical Cloak, you don't pay for the entire cooldown just because you flash fired it now do you? Tactical cloak doesn't directly damage anything; it's used to boost the damage of your attacks while being somewhat "cloaked" from the enemy's radar. It's nothing like any of the other powers to make it perform under the same conditions. It's an entirely unique power compared to others, and it was already nerfed. I

Invalid comparison - using TC for any length of time then using an ability and/or firing grants the full damage bonus.
Flamer only grants its full damage if it is fully maintained, the damage isn't automagically applied once I stop using it.