190 réponses à ce sujet

[Jay Leon Hart]

Jiovanie- wrote...

Jay Leon Hart wrote...

Jiovanie- wrote...
Flamer works much like Tactical Cloak, you don't pay for the entire cooldown just because you flash fired it now do you? Tactical cloak doesn't directly damage anything; it's used to boost the damage of your attacks while being somewhat "cloaked" from the enemy's radar. It's nothing like any of the other powers to make it perform under the same conditions. It's an entirely unique power compared to others, and it was already nerfed. I

Invalid comparison - using TC for any length of time then using an ability and/or firing grants the full damage bonus.
Flamer only grants its full damage if it is fully maintained, the damage isn't automagically applied once I stop using it.

Well I'm wrong then. I apologize for the invalid comparison.

No need, it's only a game 

[Cyonan]

Feneckus wrote...
The fact that the nerfs were targeted at the GI/TGI doesn't mean the other infiltrators are balanced. 

The MQI is as broken as the GI. He has a much better debuff and can annihilate spawns in seconds with his nades.

The SI has roughly the same damage output as a GI and he's durable thanks to energy drain. He has literally no weaknesses.

The FQI and HI are somewhat underwhelming compared to the other infiltrators but they still have a lot going for them. The FQI is the only character who can use Sabotage. The HI kinda makes the Female Quarian Engineer obsolete, although the FQE is a lot better at killing swarmers, I'll give her that.

That's nice and all that you think that, but it doesn't actually have anything to do with what I was responding to.

I'm sure the QFE cries herself to sleep at night over how her Cryo Blast got nerfed because of the big mean Human Infiltrator, though.

Feneckus wrote...

Infiltrators are balanced because :

1) One specific class can kill something faster with a few select weapons
2) Other classes can exploit glitches.

That makes sense.

and yet again you reply with something that has little to do with what I was actually responding to. If I didn't know better I'd say I was having a discussion with a broken record =P

Oh, and it's more than a select few weapons, and it's more than just the Human Soldier.

[Poison_Berrie]

Jay Leon Hart wrote...

Invalid comparison - using TC for any length of time then using an ability and/or firing grants the full damage bonus.
Flamer only grants its full damage if it is fully maintained, the damage isn't automagically applied once I stop using it.

Well Flamer has some interesting mechanics that do make quitting early on smaller targets beneficial damage wise.
The DoT stacks and flaming until the target is dead means you wasted that stack.

But that just means it's less comparable to TC.

[Alstod]

After reading this, it seems that the problem could be mostly solved by eliminating the cooldown reduction after Cloak Cancelling. Since you are still getting the full damage boost for the full duration, even if you say that Tac Cloak is intended to boost damage, you should have to pay the full cooldown. I think that if you break cloak with a power, you should have to pay the full Tac Cloak cooldown plus half the cooldown of whatever power you used, which would help offset using debuff powers to Cloak Cancel. Admittedly, this overlooks the TGI, but I think he should have had Havoc Strike instead of Stim Packs in the first place. Then they could have balanced the TGI and Havoc by nerfing or buffing Havoc Strike as necessary.

EDIT: tl;dr Making Infiltrators pay the full cooldown for TC every time they use it would balance it.

Modifié par Alstod, 11 décembre 2012 - 09:32 .

[GreatBlueHeron]

COLZ7R wrote...

Not really, the first time there was mibbies 20-30 people spamming the same thread over and over, this time its only a couple of self entitled ****s at it, thay are rather loud though and really full of themself.
Funny really, same as last time, they dont care that most people are happy and want things changed to how they believe the game should be played

I'll stop calling for nerfs to TC when Bioware stops nerfing shared powers.  Those nerfs don't hurt the infis.  

[COLZ7R]

Oh diddums!!! Bad inf at it again. Your tears are sweet

[RGFrog]

theillusiveman11 wrote...

 I discovered that BSN had forums during the "Tactical Cloak Crisis." I don't remember the exact week. I remember it being around June/ July. But there where constant threads on Tac Cloak and how it should be "balanced." Then the nerf came and BSN lit up like a 50 foot Christmas Tree. 

This led to a... less than good first impression of what the ME3 MP sub-forum was about because it was just constant bickering and drama over Tactical Cloak. I'm starting to see this happening again, although this time around it seems more civil. 

So are we in the midst of our second Tactical Cloak Crisis?

only if threads keep bringing the unecessary topics to the top of the list...

TC crisis... It's all Sally Struthers up in here.

[tahhotep]

I think peoples wanting to nerf TC is cause that is does so much for one power.
here a look at a just a evol 3 TC.

pros
damage buff for 1 sec after first shot or power
survivability gain cause of stealth
mobility gain cause of stealth
extra ability use with sometimes lower CD
all for 5 secs

cons
no shield regen

now lets look at what other abilities give the same gains what evol is needed. damage buff is like AR on evol 1. Survivability Ar again in evol 4. the closest for mobility is AF in evol 5 not the same but it is a mobility gain. extra ability is only in Ar and is evol 6, but you still have to wait for Ar to end and the CD to use another. the closest you get to that con is HM with the 50% shields.
While AR is better DPS your locked in DPS(and tank if evoled) For its duration. with TC you can dps or run or something utility wise. and do it again quickly. I don't think TC need a nerf, but some new types of stealth so a nerf to one does effect the whole class. I feel the same way about biotic charge but have no ideas on either. the only i can think of is make so the damage buff only goes to weapons or powers per stealth, based on which was used first in stealth

Modifié par tahhotep, 11 décembre 2012 - 09:36 .

[billy the squid]

@Tahhop. Yes and no. Tac cloak has some legitimate issues, but does it need an outright nerf? No.

I've already talked about some problems with it, none of which relate to the level of damage, rather it's universal application. Other people have in principle agreed and suggested how Tac cloak could be re worked rather than simply nerfing the damage, which is dumb. (I linked to it earlier in this thread)

The biggest problem is that it would have to be patched and redone entirely as a power. On top of that Cyonan already pointed out it hits the HI and FQI harder than the top tier inf, such as the Ghost and Geth. While I don't think it's out of the question that could it be patched and completely redone as a power it would require significant number buffs on other powers across the board to different classes. It would certainly fix the shared power and Tac cloak issue. But, I don't see Bioware undertaking that level of work.

At the moment Tac cloak is fine as we have it now, it's not the best, but actually dealing with the issue properly, not just nerfing, is going to take a lot of work, which I don't think we're going to get.

[UKStory135]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Jiovanie- wrote...

cgj wrote...

Jiovanie- wrote...

Think about that for a second; if I use tactical cloak for but a second, why do I have to suffer an entire 3 second cooldown? Let's go with my N7 Shadow for instance, both her SS and ES have a cooldown of about 2.46 seconds, but my TC makes me suffer the cooldown of 3 seconds(let's assume I didn't spec into bonus power.). Why do I have to use a long cooldown when I only used 1 second of that power's benefits? 

Flamer works much like Tactical Cloak, you don't pay for the entire cooldown just because you flash fired it now do you? Tactical cloak doesn't directly damage anything; it's used to boost the damage of your attacks while being somewhat "cloaked" from the enemy's radar. It's nothing like any of the other powers to make it perform under the same conditions. It's an entirely unique power compared to others, and it was already nerfed. I

the first one wasn't a serious suggestion, but  you could still say you have to wait the full CD cause you broke cloak out of your own free will for a damage boost, your post makes it clear that you only think of cloak as a damage boost while it should have never been its primary function
it's kinda like when i use marksman for just 2s, why do i need to sit through the duration and the coolddown to use proxy mine.  doesn't make sense to me either
but needing a bonus power evo to use powers from cloak should have
always been there just like it should have been there on marksman too

Marksman =/= Tactical Cloak, you seem to be ignoring the fact that Marksman applies more buffs than Tactical Cloak can. It's not just a damage boost; it's also there for utility and when you use the entire cloak you suffer the entire cooldown. Marksman works like Adrenaline Rush, so it cannot be compared to Tactical Cloak. Only Flamer can, but I don't see anyone asking for a Flamer nerf despite Flamer being more useful than Tactical Cloak damage wise.

You can't toss out a Proximity Mine while Flamer, Marksman, or Adrenaline Rush are active...

You can spam Concussive Shot during AR.

[capn233]

billy the squid wrote...

On top of that Cyonan already pointed out it hits the HI and FQI harder than the top tier inf, such as the Ghost and Geth.

Except that in order to accept this, you must first accept several assumptions, the top of which being that you are prevented from modifying Sticky Grenades, Cryo Blast and Sabotage in the future.

UKStory135 wrote...

You can spam Concussive Shot during AR.

You can fire one CS or one Carnage during the duration of Adrenaline Rush.  To spam CS, you need to use it outside of Adrenaline Rush.

Modifié par capn233, 11 décembre 2012 - 10:06 .

[billy the squid]

capn233 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

On top of that Cyonan already pointed out it hits the HI and FQI harder than the top tier inf, such as the Ghost and Geth.

Except that in order to accept this, you must first accept several assumptions, the top of which being that you are prevented from modifying Sticky Grenades, Cryo Blast and Sabotage in the future.

I wouldn't have thought so.

I linked to a thread earlier in this one, which seperated Tac cloak evolutions into power, weapon damage and duration. The actual level of damage and duration remained. But the each evolution created a choice between the three rather, granting greater freedom of selection, than making a binary choice between universal damage and duration.

I also said if this was patched in there is no reason that the seperate powers couldn't be buffed on the various classes, as the Tac cloak is not a universal damage booster, if one boosts power it is at the expense of weapon damage. I think it'd make Inf far more interesting and varied.

I did say the only deciding factor is whether Bioware would be willing to put in the work involved to patch and then apply the balance changes to bring those powers back up again. Which I don't think is likely.

[capn233]

billy the squid wrote...

I did say the only deciding factor is whether Bioware would be willing to put in the work involved to patch and then apply the balance changes to bring those powers back up again. Which I don't think is likely.

I agree with the premise that the design of Tactical Cloak, including the evolution choices, is the heart of the issue.

I disagree that you cannot work in the existing framework of a weekly balance change, and I am dismissing balance injustice to the QFI and HI as excuses rather than an actual reason to avoid attempting to modify Tactical Cloak via a weekly balance change.

[Cyonan]

capn233 wrote...

I agree with the premise that the design of Tactical Cloak, including the evolution choices, is the heart of the issue.

I disagree that you cannot work in the existing framework of a weekly balance change, and I am dismissing balance injustice to the QFI and HI as excuses rather than an actual reason to avoid attempting to modify Tactical Cloak via a weekly balance change.

If they buff all non GI/TGI Infiltrators to near that level first, then I'll take back my argument and say nerf TC to bring them all down, but it has to be buffs first.

The last time we suggested doing something like this, they nerfed evo 6 on TC and took months to buff up the Sniper Rifles, so I'm staying on the side of caution this time =P

Modifié par Cyonan, 11 décembre 2012 - 10:44 .

[sandboxgod]

DarkseidXIII wrote...

It wont be civil if I can help it. Unless its civil war. I hate all nerfducks. I hate all balance whiners. I hope Bioware stops paying attention to this game and works exclusively on M.E. 4. Then I can play in peace.

Amen brother! A kindred soul 

edit- I must say thats what I loved bout Halo 3. When I purchased that game and played online I felt like it was a done deal. No nerfing. it was bliss. This game has been a balance nightmare. Feels like its in beta! Waiting for release!

Modifié par sandboxgod, 11 décembre 2012 - 10:46 .

[capn233]

Cyonan wrote...

If they buff all non GI/TGI Infiltrators to near that level first, then I'll take back my argument and say nerf TC to bring them all down, but it has to be buffs first.

The last time we suggested doing something like this, they nerfed evo 6 on TC and took months to buff up the Sniper Rifles, so I'm staying on the side of caution this time =P

I am on the side of apathy this time, for the most part.

It is good to see you admit Tac Cloak is OP though.

[Cyonan]

capn233 wrote...

I am on the side of apathy this time, for the most part.

It is good to see you admit Tac Cloak is OP though.

It isn't all by itself =P

But the result is an OP character when you have 3 very powerful abilities that can all work together in perfect synergy, due to how few characters actually have that. Ideally they would actually redesign everything else to that their abilities are all powerful and have good synergy within the kit.

but that's more of a thing for ME4 at this point.

[billy the squid]

capn233 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

I did say the only deciding factor is whether Bioware would be willing to put in the work involved to patch and then apply the balance changes to bring those powers back up again. Which I don't think is likely.

I agree with the premise that the design of Tactical Cloak, including the evolution choices, is the heart of the issue.

I disagree that you cannot work in the existing framework of a weekly balance change, and I am dismissing balance injustice to the QFI and HI as excuses rather than an actual reason to avoid attempting to modify Tactical Cloak via a weekly balance change.

This would be the thread I was refering to. If something like that was implemented in or proposed by the devs, then I would definately support it, compared to the current version of the cloak. But I do think it would require it to be patched, which would be beyond the scope of weekly balance changes. (I agree on at least the premise rather than the figures.)

At the moment I don't know that boosting and decreasing damage and cooldowns would do more than fiddle at the edges of the problem, rather than getting to the heart of the issue.

Modifié par billy the squid, 11 décembre 2012 - 11:03 .

[sliverofamoon]

CWG07 wrote...

Tactical Cloak is nothing more than a false security blanket. It never works, and is a false sense of hope. Every mob in multiplayer can see you from across the map, specially geth and cerberus turrets.

And Husks, Seeker Swarms, Cerberus Turrets..... Did I leave anything out? Oh yeah... pretty much all bosses.....

[Zjarcal]

CWG07 wrote...

Tactical Cloak is nothing more than a false security blanket. It never works, and is a false sense of hope. Every mob in multiplayer can see you from across the map, specially geth and cerberus turrets.

Clearly we are playing a completely different game.

[SOMETHING_FOR_NOTHING]

Jay Leon Hart wrote...

SOMETHING_FOR_NOTHING wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

 the only people that make a 'crisis' out of anything are a bunch of crybabies on the forums when they should just get on and play this co-op game.  Biotics are just as powerful as any weapon class - including infiltrators, the best teams generally have a mix of classes/abilities. The real problem is people not knowing how to play properly, spec their character and most grievous: don't use (correct) mods.

what i dont get is

they cry OP but YET EVERYONE HAS THE SAME set of kits so they can play the same OP class as you.....only reason why they cry so dam much is by now everyone has a favourite character that they go to and always play...and if there god chosen character isnt as OP as your favorite character becuase they dont care for anything else they want it nerfed.


It is the general feeling i am getting from the forums, which is god dam stupid and dumb....in a co-op game.

Question - do you like missile glitchers?

why do i get the feeling that like no matter the answer i am going to get some sort of philosophical BS