341 réponses à ce sujet

[Xena_Shepard]

Shinnyshin wrote...

Actually, there's a perfectly reasonable explanation that many people have already mentioned: commitment to the match.  Not having consumables is an indicator (not a 100% true symptom, but indicator) of not being committed, not being willing to burn stuff.  And I think we can ALL come up with pages of anecdotal evidence on how that one guy (often the one with a weak loadout) doesn't bring consumables, underperforms, doesn't use resources and supplies, and makes a gold run hell.

At the lobby, we have no way of knowing what kind of player you are.  So even if you're 1000x better than we are, you coming in with a setup that screams: "Lolol have fun carrying me for the next 35 minutes"...  Well even if that's not how things actually are, giving off that impression will earn you no friends.

Actually, it has earned me friends. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I proved a guy wrong who thought I was a noob simply because I didn't put any gear on, and he's been my buddy ever since.

Earning friends through a display of actual talent is far more meaningful than slapping on consumables...

[Tarelgeth]

Shinnyshin wrote...
I think you'll find a disproportionate % of leechers, moochers, and people who make gold runs absolutely no fun use no consumable equipment.

And if asked, almost all of them will say the same thing as the OP

[Shinnyshin]

Xena_Shepard wrote...

Shinnyshin wrote...

Actually, there's a perfectly reasonable explanation that many people have already mentioned: commitment to the match.  Not having consumables is an indicator (not a 100% true symptom, but indicator) of not being committed, not being willing to burn stuff.  And I think we can ALL come up with pages of anecdotal evidence on how that one guy (often the one with a weak loadout) doesn't bring consumables, underperforms, doesn't use resources and supplies, and makes a gold run hell.

At the lobby, we have no way of knowing what kind of player you are.  So even if you're 1000x better than we are, you coming in with a setup that screams: "Lolol have fun carrying me for the next 35 minutes"...  Well even if that's not how things actually are, giving off that impression will earn you no friends.

Actually, it has earned me friends. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I proved a guy wrong who thought I was a noob simply because I didn't put any gear on, and he's been my buddy ever since.

Earning friends through a display of actual talent is far more meaningful than slapping on consumables...

Performing well in a match and being a pleasant surprise will definitely earn you goodwill.  I've never said otherwise. If you read what I actually said, it's that giving off the impression in the lobby that you're being simultaneously incompetent and rude will never earn you friends.

That you manage to redeem yourself after giving that impression does nothing to change that fact.  Ya still started at a negative and the other players in the lobby, given their limited information, were perfectly justified in that negative impression.

Modifié par Shinnyshin, 11 décembre 2012 - 08:51 .

[BACON4BREAKFAST]

My philosophy is to smoke em if you got em, and I got em.

Also, I'm willing to bet that every player who is worth his/her salt uses consumables most of time.

[Dilandau3000]

Stop calling it "consumable gear". Gear is not consumable, other types of equipment are. So either call it consumable equipment or just plain consumables. Calling it consumable gear is just confusing.

Not using any consumable equipment on gold is a sign that either you think you're good enough to do without, or you're not taking gold seriously. Even if it's the former, the number of people I've met in PUGs that are actually good enough to do without is small. Therefore, if I see a lobby with people who I don't already know are good and they're not using equipment, then I tend to doubt how useful that person is going to be. Sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised, but usually I'm not.

To put it simply: someone can be very good without consumables, but in a PUG the odds are against it.

[Kogia]

Xena_Shepard wrote...

Kogia wrote...

OP you've gone down a wrong path with your view on consumables, they are no more a crutch for players to rely on than setting up a character with certain skills, gear & weapons. All are different ways to build up a character to play with. Otherwise there's no difference between what you say and someone else who thinks if you choose to use a Harrier over an Avenger you're using a crutch that doesn't reveal your true skill.

As for what people think (or kick) based on consumables in lobbies, I generally don't bother to kick on it, but in my experience someone who doesn't put on consumables for gold matches, also doesn't want to use medigels & rockets, etc. As others have said, by not putting any on you're displaying not a measure of skill, but a measure of care and commitment to the success of the match.

I don't quite see why people keep referring back to this. In no way are supplies and consumable equipment the same.

You can get enough supplies for a single match from a 33K pack. Level I consumable gears are non-factors, not even worth using, so you're talking about going up into the III or IV which aren't as readily availible as supplies... So, really, anybody that thinks no consumable gear = no supply use just doesn't have any idea.

As I said, you have created a difference, you have decided one is different from the other in terms of how one should set up and play. You are telling others to not judge you because for some personal reasons you have decided they are not warranted, but you are making generalisations ('crutch') about others for using, or expecting their use.

You created a topic stating a view, most people have disagreed with you and given many reasons why, rather than just defiantly sticking to what you initially stated, why not take a few games to try what was possibily a mistaken belief. There is no shame in changing your view from a web forum, otherwise what's the point of posting?

Modifié par Kogia, 11 décembre 2012 - 08:55 .

[Kogia]

doubled

Modifié par Kogia, 11 décembre 2012 - 08:55 .

[Xena_Shepard]

Kogia wrote...

As I said, you have created a difference, you have decided one is different from the other in terms of how one should set up and play. You are telling others to not judge you because for some personal reasons you have decided they are not warranted, but you are making generalisations ('crutch') about others for using, or expecting their use.

You created a topic stating a view, most people have disagreed with you and given many reasons why, rather than just difiantly sticking to what you initially stated, why not take a few games to try what was possibily a mistaken belief. There is no shame in changing your view from a web forum, otherwise what's the point of posting?

I have played games with consumable gear... they weren't very fun. It's no fun to play in a competitive environment (if the game wasn't competitive, there wouldn't be a scoreboard) all the while knowing I'm not really earning the score, my consumable equipment is.

I posted because I was genuinely curious, I wanted to assess the community opinion on it. This is purely a discussionary thread I just felt like making. If anything, I was hoping to change a few minds myself.

Ultimately I'm not affected by these people who think I'm a noob for not using gear. I've been kicked from a lobby maybe twice because of it, and whenever people say anything I state my lack of caring of their opinion of me and proceed to out-perform them. Other people's opinions on my level of play matter little to me.

As I said, purely a discussionary topic.

[Kogia]

Xena_Shepard wrote...

Shinnyshin wrote...

Actually, there's a perfectly reasonable explanation that many people have already mentioned: commitment to the match.  Not having consumables is an indicator (not a 100% true symptom, but indicator) of not being committed, not being willing to burn stuff.  And I think we can ALL come up with pages of anecdotal evidence on how that one guy (often the one with a weak loadout) doesn't bring consumables, underperforms, doesn't use resources and supplies, and makes a gold run hell.

At the lobby, we have no way of knowing what kind of player you are.  So even if you're 1000x better than we are, you coming in with a setup that screams: "Lolol have fun carrying me for the next 35 minutes"...  Well even if that's not how things actually are, giving off that impression will earn you no friends.

Actually, it has earned me friends. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I proved a guy wrong who thought I was a noob simply because I didn't put any gear on, and he's been my buddy ever since.

Earning friends through a display of actual talent is far more meaningful than slapping on consumables...

I think you missed their point, it's not about your specific instance of making a friend by showing them you weren;t as bad as they thought were going to be, it's about displaying a sense of team play before you begin. Playing online games you rarely make 'friends', but you do create lots of initial impressions.

[Xena_Shepard]

Kogia wrote...

I think you missed their point, it's not about your specific instance of making a friend by showing them you weren;t as bad as they thought were going to be, it's about displaying a sense of team play before you begin. Playing online games you rarely make 'friends', but you do create lots of initial impressions.

To me, being a team player is how you act in-game, not some artificial "team playe" by putting on equipment. Team players to me are those that rez when they can (or if you're me, go out of your way to rez) and stick with objectives. That's a team player to me.

[count_4]

Xena_Shepard wrote...
In my opinion, it's quite the opposite. Consumable gear is just a crutch that helps people with no skill limp through a match...

Honestly, this attitude is just as stupid as the 'no equipment = kick' one, cause both of 'em show a lack of understanding the game.

[Kogia]

Xena_Shepard wrote...

Kogia wrote...

As I said, you have created a difference, you have decided one is different from the other in terms of how one should set up and play. You are telling others to not judge you because for some personal reasons you have decided they are not warranted, but you are making generalisations ('crutch') about others for using, or expecting their use.

You created a topic stating a view, most people have disagreed with you and given many reasons why, rather than just difiantly sticking to what you initially stated, why not take a few games to try what was possibily a mistaken belief. There is no shame in changing your view from a web forum, otherwise what's the point of posting?

I have played games with consumable gear... they weren't very fun. It's no fun to play in a competitive environment (if the game wasn't competitive, there wouldn't be a scoreboard) all the while knowing I'm not really earning the score, my consumable equipment is.

I posted because I was genuinely curious, I wanted to assess the community opinion on it. This is purely a discussionary thread I just felt like making. If anything, I was hoping to change a few minds myself.

Ultimately I'm not affected by these people who think I'm a noob for not using gear. I've been kicked from a lobby maybe twice because of it, and whenever people say anything I state my lack of caring of their opinion of me and proceed to out-perform them. Other people's opinions on my level of play matter little to me.

As I said, purely a discussionary topic.

Okay let's do some discussionary questions then:

What do you do with your consumables?

What do you think the games developers intended them to be used for?

Is there a difference between using a consumable that makes the game easier and using a gun like the Harrier instead of the Avenger, which also makes the game easier?

If in peoples gaming experience when they start a match with someone who doesn't put on any consumables, those people typically also don't use medigels & rockets, etc, how should they view you differently?

[Shinnyshin]

Xena_Shepard wrote...

Kogia wrote...

I think you missed their point, it's not about your specific instance of making a friend by showing them you weren;t as bad as they thought were going to be, it's about displaying a sense of team play before you begin. Playing online games you rarely make 'friends', but you do create lots of initial impressions.

To me, being a team player is how you act in-game, not some artificial "team playe" by putting on equipment. Team players to me are those that rez when they can (or if you're me, go out of your way to rez) and stick with objectives. That's a team player to me.

And I think you'll find that more people with consumable equipment on tend to be the kind of player you described.  Whereas those without tend more often to be undesireables.

I don't know you.  I'm not going to google your name for videos of you clearing gold.  I'm not going to look up your stats.  All I have to judge from is what you're bringing to the table in the lobby and from my own history of carrying (or failing to carry) the unfortunately common sort of player that doesn't bring consumables.

This isn't about us being buddy-buddy or artificial team player stuff.  This is about you showing up for a job without a full set of tools and expecting everyone else to be perfectly fine with the possibility that you're not going to pull your weight and are going to knowingly and intentionally mooch off of everyone else.  You can't expect everyone to be cool with you being "that guy".

Modifié par Shinnyshin, 11 décembre 2012 - 09:10 .

[tutzdes]

Kogia, medigels, rockets also make game easier! Crutches everywhere!

[Xena_Shepard]

Kogia wrote...

Okay let's do some discussionary questions then:

What do you do with your consumables?

What do you think the games developers intended them to be used for?

Is there a difference between using a consumable that makes the game easier and using a gun like the Harrier instead of the Avenger, which also makes the game easier?

If in peoples gaming experience when they start a match with someone who doesn't put on any consumables, those people typically also don't use medigels & rockets, etc, how should they view you differently?

1. I let them sit. I've actually heard from a couple people that there's an artificial in-game "limit" to where the game stops giving you consumables and will defer back to actual gear. That's not the only reason, but I've never used consumable equipment anyway, so all the more reason to if that's the case.

2. To me, somewhat. I typically look down on people that use OP kits like that and think they're really good because of it. To clarify, I don't get in a fight with people over it (I'm not a moron) but if I see a kroguard with an AP reegar who thinks he's all that, if I don't say something, I'll just think it. Specifically about the Harrier: yeah, it actually annoys the hell out of me when I see people use the Harrier on everything. It's like... use a little imagination, people. I use the Harrier on... one character. And I don't even play that character very often. I have a friend who stopped using the Harrier entirely, precisely because he said, "it makes the game too easy."

3. As long as I'm not kicked from the lobby I don't really care how they view me. But, honestly, I don't even know where that idea comes from, I've played with loads of people who used equipment and wouldn't gel/rocket either.

[BleedingUranium]

Xena_Shepard wrote...

To me, using consumable gear is like taking HGH in sports.

Honestly, there's more skill in knowing the base limitations of your character and personal gear. What happens if you get used to using your consumables, then your caught with your pants down when you run out of that particular consumable? I like to know my performance will be consistent, and not using consumables forces me to work on my own skills as an individual rather than being dependent on an aid.

Those are my feelings on the matter too. I have enough consumable gear that I'll use some even on Silver if I feel like it, but most of the time I don't.

Xena_Shepard wrote...

1. I let them sit. I've actually heard from a couple people that there's an artificial in-game "limit" to where the game stops giving you consumables and will defer back to actual gear. That's not the only reason, but I've never used consumable equipment anyway, so all the more reason to if that's the case.

2. To me, somewhat. I typically look down on people that use OP kits like that and think they're really good because of it. To clarify, I don't get in a fight with people over it (I'm not a moron) but if I see a kroguard with an AP reegar who thinks he's all that, if I don't say something, I'll just think it. Specifically about the Harrier: yeah, it actually annoys the hell out of me when I see people use the Harrier on everything. It's like... use a little imagination, people. I use the Harrier on... one character. And I don't even play that character very often. I have a friend who stopped using the Harrier entirely, precisely because he said, "it makes the game too easy."

3. As long as I'm not kicked from the lobby I don't really care how they view me. But, honestly, I don't even know where that idea comes from, I've played with loads of people who used equipment and wouldn't gel/rocket either.

I also second this as well, and also use the Harrier in one kit.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 11 décembre 2012 - 09:17 .

[sonofabumdooda]

Crimson Vanguard wrote...

Look how badass I am. I play without Gear

XXX

Awwww give the lady a break
its nearly christmas and those smg amp II's make great presents for the grandparents.
might even be able to save enough for next year too.
not to mention giving them away as prizes on a tombola.
Also pop them in your cereal...a suprise gift and they make a healthy snack too.

[Grammaton Dryad]

I'm not saying you're wrong at all, but for me it's more of a "why not?" sorta thing. I have a ton of consumables, so why not use them. Saving them does me no good. (If I somehow ever feel like I want/need more of a challenge, then I could go equipment-less).

But if you're just starting out then you do not really have stockpiles of equipment. That could be remedied though if you bought only JEPs for one week/weekend though. *shrugs* Time & place I suppose, but I don't see why I shouldn't use them.

[Computron2000]

The last game i went naked with only a gear and gun mods because the entire lot had 0 equipment, the match at reactor/collectors took 37 minutes and i was the lone survivor. So was it a grand display of skill? No it was a waste of time.

Of the literally thousands of matches that i gave 1, 2 or 3 peeps the benefit of the doubt that they can handle it without equipment, only 1 person using a fury stacked up to par. A large percentage stay on and bleed out. A smaller but still large percentage will drop out, some earlier, some later. All this tells me that people who put no equipment on will probably suck + bleed out or run off.

Are there exceptions? Yes, that 1 fury. Will i see such people commonly? No. What are the odds? 1 person vs few thousand randoms, so less than 0.1%

[count_4]

Xena_Shepard wrote...
2.  use the Harrier on... one character.

So you only use crutches on one character. How does that make you superior to those players who use crutches more often?

[Xena_Shepard]

Grammaton Dryad wrote...

I'm not saying you're wrong at all, but for me it's more of a "why not?" sorta thing. I have a ton of consumables, so why not use them. Saving them does me no good. (If I somehow ever feel like I want/need more of a challenge, then I could go equipment-less).

But if you're just starting out then you do not really have stockpiles of equipment. That could be remedied though if you bought only JEPs for one week/weekend though. *shrugs* Time & place I suppose, but I don't see why I shouldn't use them.

Yeah, I mean I don't really care if people use equipment. All I stated was my opinion on the use of it (didn't declare it as fact) and I didn't call people who use them noobs either (or kick them from my lobbies).

Computron2000 wrote...

The last game i went naked with
only a gear and gun mods because the entire lot had 0 equipment, the
match at reactor/collectors took 37 minutes and i was the lone survivor.
So was it a grand display of skill? No it was a waste of time.

Of
the literally thousands of matches that i gave 1, 2 or 3 peeps the
benefit of the doubt that they can handle it without equipment, only 1
person using a fury stacked up to par. A large percentage stay on and
bleed out. A smaller but still large percentage will drop out, some
earlier, some later. All this tells me that people who put no equipment
on will probably suck + bleed out or run off.

Are there
exceptions? Yes, that 1 fury. Will i see such people commonly? No. What
are the odds? 1 person vs few thousand randoms, so less than
0.1%

To be fair to the Fury, it's a class that requires skill to play correctly.

count_4 wrote...

Xena_Shepard wrote...
2.  use the Harrier on... one character.

So you only use crutches on one character. How does that make you superior to those players who use crutches more often?

First, the Harrier is a permanent item of gear and not what I'd classify as a crutch (though I still find the overuse of it distasteful). Second, I never claimed to be superior to anyone (and if I did in any form it was accidental).

Modifié par Xena_Shepard, 11 décembre 2012 - 09:23 .

[Grammaton Dryad]

Xena_Shepard wrote...

Grammaton Dryad wrote...

I'm not saying you're wrong at all, but for me it's more of a "why not?" sorta thing. I have a ton of consumables, so why not use them. Saving them does me no good. (If I somehow ever feel like I want/need more of a challenge, then I could go equipment-less).

But if you're just starting out then you do not really have stockpiles of equipment. That could be remedied though if you bought only JEPs for one week/weekend though. *shrugs* Time & place I suppose, but I don't see why I shouldn't use them.

Yeah, I mean I don't really care if people use equipment. All I stated was my opinion on the use of it (didn't declare it as fact) and I didn't call people who use them noobs either (or kick them from my lobbies).

Word.

Yeah, like N7, CP, and a bunch of other stuff. It's an "indicator" of things. Just I always prefer the old fashion observation to make my judgements.

I'd rather the people I play on higher difficulties to use equipment, but it's not a necessity. Some people suck with level 3/4 stuff and others amazing without it. So whatevs. Carry on folks.

[Shinnyshin]

Xena_Shepard wrote...

Grammaton Dryad wrote...

I'm not saying you're wrong at all, but for me it's more of a "why not?" sorta thing. I have a ton of consumables, so why not use them. Saving them does me no good. (If I somehow ever feel like I want/need more of a challenge, then I could go equipment-less).

But if you're just starting out then you do not really have stockpiles of equipment. That could be remedied though if you bought only JEPs for one week/weekend though. *shrugs* Time & place I suppose, but I don't see why I shouldn't use them.

Yeah, I mean I don't really care if people use equipment. All I stated was my opinion on the use of it (didn't declare it as fact) and I didn't call people who use them noobs either (or kick them from my lobbies).

That's fine.  I'd be totally cool with you saying you believe the Earth is made out of peach-flavored legos.  That's your perspective, your belief, your point of view.  Your self-contained belief doesn't hurt anyone.

Implicit in this thread and your statements, however, is an additional belief: that other people should be completely fine with what you do and should accept your intentionally suboptimal loadouts into their games because you think you're good.

They are under no such obligation.

Modifié par Shinnyshin, 11 décembre 2012 - 09:31 .

[BleedingUranium]

count_4 wrote...

Xena_Shepard wrote...
2.  use the Harrier on... one character.

So you only use crutches on one character. How does that make you superior to those players who use crutches more often?

Using the Harrier is only a crutch if you use it as one. I use it in my Phoenix Adept because I named him Randall Ezno. All my characters are named Mass Effect characters and use guns appropriate to them. If the Harrier was the crappiest gun in the game, I'd still use it there. I also use all the guns in at least one place, have every power speced in at least one place, and use all the kits.

I'm not saying these are her reasons, but it's an example of a reason to use the Harrier that isn't using a crutch.
It's only a crutch if that's why you're using it, just like farming is only farming if you're specifically playing to maximize credits earned over other reasons to play.

[LoonySpectre]

Cooperative multiplayer is not about outscoring your teammates. It's about getting the team through 11 waves as quickly and safely as possible. And, as someone already stated, if you can do it quickly without consumables, you can do it even quicker with consumables.