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Should DA3 feature global cooldown?


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#1
Solmanian

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When ME2 came out there was alot of resistence toward the GCD for powers system, but by ME3 time we can't realy imagine being without it. The same reasons that caused ME to start using GCD are applicable to the DA franchise. I believe the way one of the Devs described individual power cooldown was (Not exact quote since it's been 2-3 years since then, And I don't remember the exact wording): "activating all the powers at the beggining of the battle, and then just waiting for something to finish it's cycle". Mind you some powers in ME1 had several minutes of cooldown.

GCD would make combat in DA3 more fluid, maybe even removing the stamina/mana system (which is kinda outdated). No more using a stamina heavy power in the beggining of the fight and not being able to use any other power in the entire fight. Sustained abilities (like rock armor) would give a penalty to the cooldown instead of eating your stam/mana pool (and I love using a ton of sustainable powers, which is why being a blood mage is practicaly a must have if I expect to actualy use any spells). It will be better from the tatical perspective, since you will be able to use the power suitable for the situation (armor peircing attack, AOE, charge, ranged etc...) and not simply using the only power that is available (often the most useless one, or else you'd have used it by now). And more realistic from an immersion perspective: IRL if you kick someone in the crotch you don't have to wait 120 seconds before kicking him there again... Posted Image

#2
hexaligned

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I would rather the abilities be less powerful, and be useable more often. ME is a good example of how not to do it imo. My Adept in ME2 never FELT like an adept, i felt like an SMG gunner. Same concept for DA, my Reaver never really feels like a reaver, I get to use maybe one ability per battle, that on the whole are pretty underwhelming. If the lifestealing ability could be used every few seconds, and only healed for a fraction of what the implemented one does, it would be better, I think

That being said, I think they should keep mana/stamina, and just get rid of potions..In order to create a Reaver like the one I mentioned above, I would have to pump willpower substantially, or I could just go with the standard "everything in STR" builds that already exist, if I rathered. It would promote more diverse character builds, is my point.

#3
In Exile

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Solmanian wrote...
 And more realistic from an immersion perspective: IRL if you kick someone in the crotch you don't have to wait 120 seconds before kicking him there again... Posted Image


But if I shot a gun, I have to wait 130 seconds before I can stab him with my knife? Global cooldown is even silier from this POV. 

I prefer not having cooldowns but having casting timers for magic, and (for warriors) having increased % to dmg received (with the justification that all those nifty dmg ablities leave you open for counter-attacks) or decreased % to dmg dealt (for defensive abilities. becuase protecting yourself is a trade off). That, to me, is a much cooler system.

#4
caradoc2000

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In Exile wrote...

But if I shot a gun, I have to wait 130 seconds before I can stab him with my knife? Global cooldown is even silier from this POV.

I agree - global cooldown system is abysmally bad.

#5
Fredward

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I thought this thread was about using the game to make a statement about global warming. XD

#6
Navasha

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No... global cooldown was honestly one of the dumb things that popped up in DA2. Why can't two different people drink a potion at the same time?

You have stamina and mana already implemented. Balance the system so people have to wait for those resources to recharge if that is a concern, don't hamstring things that don't make sense to be delayed on some arbitrary timer.

Also get rid of the global backpack. If a character is carrying a potion they should be able to use it regardless if someone else 50 fifty feet away just used theirs. If that character is out of potions, then you are out of luck.

#7
Doctoglethorpe

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No.  Its a different kind of game.  What works for a third person shooter with skills that augment gunplay doesn't work for an action rpg built entirely around tactical use of skills and spells while managing stamina and mana pools. 

#8
Kidd

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Solmanian wrote...

Devs described individual power cooldown was (Not exact quote since it's been 2-3 years since then, And I don't remember the exact wording): "activating all the powers at the beggining of the battle, and then just waiting for something to finish it's cycle". Mind you some powers in ME1 had several minutes of cooldown.

GCD would make combat in DA3 more fluid, maybe even removing the stamina/mana system (which is kinda outdated). No more using a stamina heavy power in the beggining of the fight and not being able to use any other power in the entire fight. Sustained abilities (like rock armor) would give a penalty to the cooldown instead of eating your stam/mana pool

Could definitely work. Not sure it would be better, but I'd love to try it out =)


Navasha wrote...

No... global cooldown was honestly one of the dumb things that popped up in DA2. Why can't two different people drink a potion at the same time?

They can.

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 11 décembre 2012 - 08:47 .


#9
Navasha

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KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Navasha wrote...

No... global cooldown was honestly one of the dumb things that popped up in DA2. Why can't two different people drink a potion at the same time?

They can.


Never could in my game.   If any character ever drank a healing potion, everyone had to wait for the cooldown before anyone else could drink another.

#10
Wulfram

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Isn't the whole point of the cooldowns is to encourage the use of a variety of talents, rather than just spamming the best one repeatedly? Wouldn't making the cooldown global defeat that purpose?

I'd rather switch to a pure mana/stamina based system than go to a global cooldown.

edit:  There were occasions when for some reason the use of a healing potion was grayed out, despite them not being on cooldown.  Not sure why that was, but I don't think it was a global cooldown.

Modifié par Wulfram, 11 décembre 2012 - 09:20 .


#11
Direwolf0294

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In absence of proper action combat, the more MMOish they can make the combat, the better, so I support the addition of global cooldowns. The combat in DA as it is isn't great. When 80% of your combat is auto attacking while you wait for your abilities to get off cooldown or your resource meter to regain you've got a problem. If they can increase resource regain, add low cost abilities that don't have a cooldown aside from the global cooldown and make the super special large damage attacks have cooldowns between 1 - 5 minutes it would really make DA a lot more fun to play.

#12
Swagger7

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Foopydoopydoo wrote...

I thought this thread was about using the game to make a statement about global warming. XD


You're not the only one....

On topic: I personally like the per ability cooldown system, and really don't want global cooldowns.

#13
Kidd

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Navasha wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Navasha wrote...

No... global cooldown was honestly one of the dumb things that popped up in DA2. Why can't two different people drink a potion at the same time?

They can.


Never could in my game.   If any character ever drank a healing potion, everyone had to wait for the cooldown before anyone else could drink another.

Sounds like a glitch. There's a timer (30 seconds I believe) between each time each individual character can drink a potion, but they each have such an individual timer. I beat DA2 again just days ago and after taking heavy AoE damage I generally paused my game, told 2-3 of my guys to drink and then they all drank simultaneously. No problems =)

Theoretically it could be a platform-specific thing (I'm on 360), though I highly doubt it.

#14
DarkKnightHolmes

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No.

#15
Imp of the Perverse

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No. ME relies a lot more heavily on weapons for damage output, so in ME1 you could blow through all of your powers at the start and not be in too bad of shape while you're waiting for them to cool down. Compare that to a mage in DA - staff damage is pathetic compared to things like blood wound and firestorm.

DA's combat is more strategic than ME's, with longer individual cooldowns that make you ration your power use a lot more carefully. Going to a universal cooldown would mean shortening all cooldowns, meaning you'd be able to just spam the more powerful abilities if you wanted.

It'd be redundant when put alongside mana/stamina limitations, which already universally limit how frequently you can use powers, and I don't see the mana/lyrium system going away since lyrium and its effects are central to the DA universe.

It also wouldn't work with DA's tactics lists - you'd just repeatedly cast the first thing in the list, rather than stepping through each ability as it cools down.

#16
Auintus

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No. Nononononononononononono. Nope, nada, huh-uh, no way, not a chance.
If I can't rattle off Hemorrhage, Firebal, Fist of the Maker, and Cone of Cold in rapid succession, how am I supposed to slaughter a clan of Dalish elves who won't listen to reason?

On a more reasonable note, Imp of the Perverse has it covered pretty well.

#17
llandwynwyn

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Thanks but DNW.

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Sounds like a glitch. There's a timer (30 seconds I believe) between each time each individual character can drink a potion, but they each have such an individual timer. I beat DA2 again just days ago and after taking heavy AoE damage I generally paused my game, told 2-3 of my guys to drink and then they all drank simultaneously. No problems =)


Yes, you can do that to "trick" the game, but if you tell character A to drink a potion, 5 secs later character B won't be able to until the cooldown is over. PC here.

Modifié par llandwynwyn, 11 décembre 2012 - 10:49 .


#18
Solmanian

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Imp of the Perverse wrote...

No. ME relies a lot more heavily on weapons for damage output, so in ME1 you could blow through all of your powers at the start and not be in too bad of shape while you're waiting for them to cool down. Compare that to a mage in DA - staff damage is pathetic compared to things like blood wound and firestorm.


Any heavy combat in DA:O&DA2 reached a point where all your abilities are on CD, or you ran out of stamina/mana, and had to rely on the patheticaly weak auto-attacks (and they were weak for all classes not just mage...). In DA2 it's especialy evindent: abilities were your main source of DPS, and if you weren't activating abilities, you just weren't doing any noticable damage. Many a fights I had where you finish all your abilities/mana but there are still enemies standing, so you move to henchman and use some of his abilities but there are still enemies, until eventauly you run out of any remotely usefull abilities  and just bang your head at the table until something comes out of cooldown...

Imp of the Perverse wrote...

DA's combat is more strategic than ME's, with longer individual cooldowns that make you ration your power use a lot more carefully. Going to a universal cooldown would mean shortening all cooldowns, meaning you'd be able to just spam the more powerful abilities if you wanted.


actualy the weaker abilities are usually the ones enjoying a GCD system. Since the most powerfull abilities have atleast an 8-12 seconds cooldown (more if they are extremley powerfull), you would rather use 4-6 weaker abilities (with 2~ sec CD) and save your heavy hitters for nuking that last guy that just wouldn't die. So as you can see, you're completely wrong.

Imp of the Perverse wrote...

It'd be redundant when put alongside mana/stamina limitations, which already universally limit how frequently you can use powers, and I don't see the mana/lyrium system going away since lyrium and its effects are central to the DA universe.


Lyrium maybe a part of the game world, but lets not pretend mana/stamina are anything more pivotal than simple game mechanics. Warriors using stamina to power their abilities is hardly the corner stone of thedas. A warrior that gets tired out after 10 seconds of combat should seek another profession.

And lyrium? lore-wise, even if you're a mage it's not healthy gulping bottles of it on a daily basis.

Imp of the Perverse wrote...

It also wouldn't work with DA's tactics lists - you'd just repeatedly cast the first thing in the list, rather than stepping through each ability as it cools down.


That's not what DA's tactics list for...

It exist so you can assign the way your companion reacts in a specific situation...When to drop an AOE, when to heal, who they should attack first... It's realy quite usefull. Posted Image

#19
DarkSpiral

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llandwynwyn wrote...

Thanks but DNW.

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Sounds like a glitch. There's a timer (30 seconds I believe) between each time each individual character can drink a potion, but they each have such an individual timer. I beat DA2 again just days ago and after taking heavy AoE damage I generally paused my game, told 2-3 of my guys to drink and then they all drank simultaneously. No problems =)


Yes, you can do that to "trick" the game, but if you tell character A to drink a potion, 5 secs later character B won't be able to until the cooldown is over. PC here.


PC here as well.  I don't have to wait the full cooldown.  I HAVE noticed that I have to take control of the character for the ability to drink a potion to light back up.

Another reason I'm really glad DA3 has a more appropriate development time is little irritating issues, like this one.

#20
DarkSpiral

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Solmanian wrote...

That's not what DA's tactics list for...

It exist so you can assign the way your companion reacts in a specific situation...When to drop an AOE, when to heal, who they should attack first... It's realy quite usefull. Posted Image


Now that I think about it, I typically automate potion usage with the tactics slots anyway, and THAT doesn't pay any attention to this issue with potions on some half-arsed cooldown.

#21
Imp of the Perverse

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Solmanian wrote...

Imp of the Perverse wrote...

No. ME relies a lot more heavily on weapons for damage output, so in ME1 you could blow through all of your powers at the start and not be in too bad of shape while you're waiting for them to cool down. Compare that to a mage in DA - staff damage is pathetic compared to things like blood wound and firestorm.


Any heavy combat in DA:O&DA2 reached a point where all your abilities are on CD, or you ran out of stamina/mana, and had to rely on the patheticaly weak auto-attacks (and they were weak for all classes not just mage...). In DA2 it's especialy evindent: abilities were your main source of DPS, and if you weren't activating abilities, you just weren't doing any noticable damage. Many a fights I had where you finish all your abilities/mana but there are still enemies standing, so you move to henchman and use some of his abilities but there are still enemies, until eventauly you run out of any remotely usefull abilities  and just bang your head at the table until something comes out of cooldown...


Non-mages in DA2 can be set up for high critical chance, which can double or triple their damage output. Most of the mages had enough mana, and enough spells to pick from, to nearly always have a spell on hand, as long as you had them set up right. When you didn't, figuring out how to weather the storm while waiting for your crowd control/incapacitation spells to become available was a big part of the challenge in combat.

Solmanian wrote...

Imp of the Perverse wrote...

DA's combat is more strategic than ME's, with longer individual cooldowns that make you ration your power use a lot more carefully. Going to a universal cooldown would mean shortening all cooldowns, meaning you'd be able to just spam the more powerful abilities if you wanted.


actualy the weaker abilities are usually the ones enjoying a GCD system. Since the most powerfull abilities have atleast an 8-12 seconds cooldown (more if they are extremley powerfull), you would rather use 4-6 weaker abilities (with 2~ sec CD) and save your heavy hitters for nuking that last guy that just wouldn't die. So as you can see, you're completely wrong.


What I'm getting at is that if you kept the same cooldown times for all the spells, but switched to a global cooldown, you wouldn't be able to cast anywhere near as often. They'd have to reduce the cooldowns for every spell to let casters maintain the same damage output, but doing so would mean very powerful spells could be cast much more frequently. Those spells would have to be nerfed to keep things from getting too imbalanced, but that cuts down on the amount of variety in the spells and abilities. If you look at the abilities in ME, the damage from one ability to the next doesn't vary anywhere near as much as it does in dragon age.

edit - One thing I really like about DA2 was the drastic increase in cooldown times for potions, and the matching long cooldown times for healing spells. How would you maintain that with a global cooldown? You'd either have to give healing spells a short cooldown, meaning you could just have a mage dedicated to spamming healing spells, or you'd have a mage who does nothing but cast a healing spell every 40 seconds, since all their other abilities are unavailable while they're waiting for the long cooldown.

Solmanian wrote...

Imp of the Perverse wrote...

It'd be redundant when put alongside mana/stamina limitations, which already universally limit how frequently you can use powers, and I don't see the mana/lyrium system going away since lyrium and its effects are central to the DA universe.


Lyrium maybe a part of the game world, but lets not pretend mana/stamina are anything more pivotal than simple game mechanics. Warriors using stamina to power their abilities is hardly the corner stone of thedas. A warrior that gets tired out after 10 seconds of combat should seek another profession.

And lyrium? lore-wise, even if you're a mage it's not healthy gulping bottles of it on a daily basis.


They could cut out mana/stamina, but I'm sure a lot of people would complain about it as being another instance of the dumbing down of RPGs. The system had a bit more impact in DAO, where fatigue effected mana/stamina costs, but even in DA2 it made you consider whether having lots of sustained spells was worth the reduction to your mana pool, and how heavily you'd need to invest in willpower on a given character.

It's also what makes blood magic such an interesting specialization - get rid of the ability to substitute blood for mana, and it just becomes another set of damage spells like all the other schools. I for one would hate that.

This upcoming game is going to be focused on the mage conflict, and blood magic and lyrium are a big part of that. As it is, having it in there as a gameplay mechanic reinforces it's role in the gameworld. It'd be sort of ironic to reduce it to a plot element in the entry in the series that revolves around magic.

Solmanian wrote...

Imp of the Perverse wrote...

It also wouldn't work with DA's tactics lists - you'd just repeatedly cast the first thing in the list, rather than stepping through each ability as it cools down.


That's not what DA's tactics list for...

It exist so you can assign the way your companion reacts in a specific situation...When to drop an AOE, when to heal, who they should attack first... It's realy quite usefull. Posted Image


I'm pretty familiar with how to use DA tactics, I'm into programming. There was a mod for DAO that unlocked all the available tactics slots, and I was really happy when they removed that restriction in DA2. I remember Wynne having about 20 lines of instructions, casting various buffs and determining when to heal and when not to. Merrill and a blood mage hawke were about as complicated, once you set them up to properly activate and deactivate blood magic. The tactics are also extremely useful for taking advantage of cross class combos - if the target is disoriented, hit them with spirit bolt, or crushing prison, or whatever else you have that gets the bonus. With multiple spells able to capitolize on that you could dish out a lot of damage in a hurry. With a global cooldown though, you'd only see one of those spells being cast, ever.

Modifié par Imp of the Perverse, 12 décembre 2012 - 02:42 .


#22
Kidd

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DarkSpiral wrote...

PC here as well.  I don't have to wait the full cooldown.  I HAVE noticed that I have to take control of the character for the ability to drink a potion to light back up.

How else would it be done? That's how it's been ever since the first BG. Click your character, select a potion off their skill bar.

#23
argan1985

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Cooldown in general is crap.

#24
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*

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I deplore global cooldown. No thanks.

#25
sunnydxmen

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stop trying to turn dragon age into mass effect.