223 réponses à ce sujet

[RiouHotaru]

Annomander wrote...

ryanshowseason3 wrote...

Great thing about the krogan is that he'll easily survive the incoming fire and lock his target into standing still. The huntress doesn't have the durability. You mention cloaking and dodging but that isn't going to help while shes taking a breath for a moment, or against anything that saw you go into cloak, or phantoms at range who don't care and shoot you anyways.

A melee build on her is interesting and potent, but not durable. And being on the floor isn't helping anyone.

True, but my post was to highlight how ridiculously outclassed the krogan are.

Can we not ONCE have a non-infiltrator that excels at something? Why can't we have the krogan sentinel and soldier being better at melee, perhaps then I'd see fewer grenade spamming krogan, and more REAL krogan.

But the Krogan are only outclassed in terms of pure math.  In actual practice the Asari hasn't anywhere NEAR the durability required to make this that viable without abusing the few things the Asari can do (using her melee through walls, around corners, etc).  And even then the Krogan have RAGE to give them even more damage/DR.  Basically, sure, you showed that, theoretically, the Asari Huntress could out-melee even the Krogan.

But it's theoretical.  Actually making it reliable or viable is an entirely different story.

[Geimhreadh]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Annomander wrote...

ryanshowseason3 wrote...

Great thing about the krogan is that he'll easily survive the incoming fire and lock his target into standing still. The huntress doesn't have the durability. You mention cloaking and dodging but that isn't going to help while shes taking a breath for a moment, or against anything that saw you go into cloak, or phantoms at range who don't care and shoot you anyways.

A melee build on her is interesting and potent, but not durable. And being on the floor isn't helping anyone.

True, but my post was to highlight how ridiculously outclassed the krogan are.

Can we not ONCE have a non-infiltrator that excels at something? Why can't we have the krogan sentinel and soldier being better at melee, perhaps then I'd see fewer grenade spamming krogan, and more REAL krogan.

But the Krogan are only outclassed in terms of pure math.  In actual practice the Asari hasn't anywhere NEAR the durability required to make this that viable without abusing the few things the Asari can do (using her melee through walls, around corners, etc).  And even then the Krogan have RAGE to give them even more damage/DR.  Basically, sure, you showed that, theoretically, the Asari Huntress could out-melee even the Krogan.

But it's theoretical.  Actually making it reliable or viable is an entirely different story.

Also keep in mind that, according to the OP, kroguards apparently don't count as "real" krogan.

[CitizenThom]

The Krogan has over twice as much shields and health, has more damage resistance in Rage mode... and gains more from melee kills as compared to the Huntress. The Huntress is not OP. She is 'just right'.

[Broganisity]

Poof! I am here to save the day!

She/It is better at pure melee damage than the Krogan Soldier. Which is still a load of bull in this reporter's opinion given the bonuses to defenses that the Krogan Melee lacks/shares with HUMANS.

Personally? They should do more melee damage to armor with all that blunt force damage. Same with Batarians (though I don't care for them too much myself) Why else were maces better than swords against plate armor? I'd be okay if they did less to shields/barriers, but it's in the Armor damage where the krogan wrongfully suffer.

Of course, The Krogan Soldier can survive in a direct battle a lot longer with fortification on (with melee bonus on for twenty seconds after purging and stays when armor is on until those seconds are done.) and in rage mode. Also Their headbutts do AoE damage, letting you easily keep rage up by swatting a cluster of husks, and then heavy meleeing something else.

In that regard? He's better at direct melee fights and staying in them. The Huntress? Not so much, but does so much more damage to bosses. ;n;

So...BUFF THE KROGAN SOLDIER!

Modifié par Broganisity, 12 décembre 2012 - 09:50 .

[StrawHatMoose]

I still prefer Krogan heavy melee. Much more manly than the asari orgasm, even if it has no AOE capabilities.

[Stabby Badger]

I agree that the krogan melee should be buffed, but I'm not sure I see the point in bringing up how krogan are immobile and have to sacrifice durability in order to max their melee damage and then dumping on the only krogan for whom neither is an issue.

Would you be happy if they buffed krogan melee to be competitive with infiltrator damage?  Or is it just the fact that krogan are outclassed that bothers you?

Modifié par Stabby Badger, 12 décembre 2012 - 10:54 .

[BridgeBurner]

Stabby Badger wrote...

I agree that the krogan melee should be buffed, but I'm not sure I see the point in bringing up how krogan are immobile and have to sacrifice durability in order to max their melee damage and then dumping on the only krogan for whom neither is an issue.

Would you be happy if they buffed krogan melee to be competitive with infiltrator damage?  Or is it just the fact that krogan are outclassed that bothers you?

I just think if characters like the krogan sentinel and soldier exist, they should be able to be melee monsters on gold.

They are melee monsters, but its not enough. Dragoons, pyros and a whole load of other enemies cannot be 1HK'd which presents severe problems at higher waves when it comes to refreshing rage. Plus, melee is not even remotely competitive at higher levels, so krogan melee builds neither have the damage output or the toughness to be classed as "great at melee" or "great at tanking".

The Krogan shaman, sentinel and soldier are neither melee machines, nor are they tanking machines. So what are they good at besides spamming grenades or slow biotic explosions?

The soldier and the sentinel can spam grenades really well, but thats pretty moronic: taking grenade capacity V and spending your entire match lobbing endless grenades is not my idea of fun.

And for the last time... I did not include the kroguard in my argument as he requires no buffs, and is pretty overpowered as it is (read: impossible to kill except when sync killed). If anything, the kroguard should be nerfed and the other krogan improved. But I dare say all the babies who only play melee when they've got the god mode kroguard to carry them will have more stupid, misinformed remarks to make about this.

The majority of people who play melee on gold most likely aren't using the huntress, or a krogan sentinel. They'll be going kroguard. So why should only 1 krogan be the obvious choice for melee, when there are THREE other krogan who are interesting, and not cheap / easy mode insta-win, unlike a certain kroguard?

Modifié par Annomander, 12 décembre 2012 - 11:19 .

[JohnDoe]

DullahansXMark wrote...

The Krogan's melee is fast enough to hit those two other targets before the Asari finishes her orgasm, though.

except when the game stupidtly plays the attack animation and magically misses by an inch.. which means the enemy will be behind you, and if its a phantom.. you're pretty much dead..

[BeardyMcGoo]

Lovaas wrote...


I'd rather punch with a batarian than burst with an Asari because you actually have the health and shields to make it through the animation. That and I have a thing for characters wth obscene single target damage output.

And DR from blade armor and the heavy melee itself.

Personally, I really don't care that the asari has a "better" heavy melee than the krogans on paper, because in reality, the previously established melee classes are still better because of various forms of DR, better health + shields, and superior light melees (for which both the krogan and batarians have a small AOE). And speaking of AOE, it doesn't really matter a whole lot if you can hit three targets at once with the asari considering if you have three targets around you to kill, there's a very good chance that they have friends in the vicinity that will drop you the second your cloak breaks while you're stuck in a recovery animation.
I'll stick to my brotarian soldier and krosent for melee, thanks.

[Stabby Badger]

Annomander wrote...

I just think if characters like the krogan sentinel and soldier exist, they should be able to be melee monsters on gold.

They are melee monsters, but its not enough. Dragoons, pyros and a whole load of other enemies cannot be 1HK'd which presents severe problems at higher waves when it comes to refreshing rage. Plus, melee is not even remotely competitive at higher levels, so krogan melee builds neither have the damage output or the toughness to be classed as "great at melee" or "great at tanking".

The Krogan shaman, sentinel and soldier are neither melee machines, nor are they tanking machines. So what are they good at besides spamming grenades or slow biotic explosions?

The soldier and the sentinel can spam grenades really well, but thats pretty moronic: taking grenade capacity V and spending your entire match lobbing endless grenades is not my idea of fun.

And for the last time... I did not include the kroguard in my argument as he requires no buffs, and is pretty overpowered as it is (read: impossible to kill except when sync killed). If anything, the kroguard should be nerfed and the other krogan improved. But I dare say all the babies who only play melee when they've got the god mode kroguard to carry them will have more stupid, misinformed remarks to make about this.

The majority of people who play melee on gold most likely aren't using the huntress, or a krogan sentinel. They'll be going kroguard. So why should only 1 krogan be the obvious choice for melee, when there are THREE other krogan who are interesting, and not cheap / easy mode insta-win, unlike a certain kroguard?

I realize that you have just scored 3 consecutive melee kills and thus your rage mode is activated, but I agreed with you that melee should be buffed.  I don't really care for the playstyle but I do completely agree that if they're going to have characters that are clearly meant to be melee-based then they need to put some work into making sure that playstyle is competetive.

As for the kroguard thing... I'm really not trying to start a flamewar here so I'll go ahead and ignore most of that paragraph since your comments weren't exactly constructive (and since I don't play the class, misplaced.)  You missed the point though.  What I'm asking is would you really be happy if the other krogan got buffed to being competive with infiltrators?  You come off as the type who wants to keep the game challenging but you're asking to have it made easier.  

You won't use infiltrators, grenades or the kroguard because they're too easy, too effective.... so do you really want the krogan to be "melee monsters" or are you just upset that they aren't the best at the thing that (I'll completely agree here) they absolutely should be?  Do you really want them brought up to being a top choice?  I'm playing the same gold and platinum as anyone else and am well aware that melee characters don't do as well as the top classes, but isn't that part of the appeal?  You're calling people who use the most viable melee character in the game currently babies - how are you going to feel if krogan soldier/sent are buffed and people start to say the same about those who play them?

I do think some changes should be made, though.  Unfortunately most of what I'd like to see would require a patch.

Modifié par Stabby Badger, 13 décembre 2012 - 01:16 .

[taplonaplo]

Idk, krogan melee seemed about right for me damage wise last time i played it. I don't think there's any non boss enemy that survives a shotgun blast+HM combo, so the damage difference isn't all that significant.But i agree on that asari/geth HM is stupidly strong for no good reason, but then again i'm a nerfduck and i'd rather see these nerfed in some way than increasing a damage of an already potent attack. Either that or change it in a way so it becomes less punishing to use but not by simply pumping the damage.

[BridgeBurner]

Stabby Badger wrote...
You won't use infiltrators, grenades or the kroguard because they're too easy, too effective.... so do you really want the krogan to be "melee monsters" or are you just upset that they aren't the best at the thing that (I'll completely agree here) they absolutely should be?

Well, here's the thing.

Buff krogan heavy melee so it can one shot everything that's "small" with full bonusses active at gold level on the sentinel / soldier, this includes dragoons, bombers, phantoms, pyros etc and you drastically increase the effectiveness of both on gold level only, as lower difficulties these units can already be one shotted.

Bosses and "mini-bosses" like scions and brutes and such like would still take multiple hits to kill on gold with full bonusses rolling.

The problem with people saying melee builds are effective are that this is true to an extent, but the problem is if you get unlucky, you will get no kills. And no kills = much reduced effectiveness. If you need to land 2 killing blows everytime to unlock your ability to 1 hit kill MOST enemies; then rambo'ing is both your best option and your achilles' heel: rambo and all the enemies are shooting at you at once, run with your team and risk not being able to land frequent enough killing blows to refresh rage.

There's no "ideal" solution, but removing the stupid penalty that krogan suffer for attacking armour would be a start.

Increasing krogan melee on the sentinel / soldier (not sure if this is a variable able to be adjusted purely by a live update; might require patching) would be an option. Push krogan heavy melee a little closer to the batarians in terms of minimum damage per heavy melee and combined with all bonusses calculated would allow the sentinel to 1HK anything up to and including a pyro once he has his rage and martial artist bonusses active.

So right away, you have 25% extra armour damage and around 500 more melee damage in total; rendering gold level pyros, bombers etc "1 hit killable"


Here's what i would suggest....

- Give the krogan soldier and sentinel more melee damage: 850 / 375 for heavy / light...

This better differentiates them from the kroguard, and gives people incentives other than grenades to use the original 2 krogan.

This would also allow them to kill everything "small" in one hit: besides possessed collector captains who would still need a follow up light melee to kill them due to their absurdly high health.

Not sure if this is feasable without patching as certain variables in the coalesced cannot be adjusted via live updates; however, a similar result could be achieved simply by modifying the melee damage bonusses granted by the Rage tree at ranks 1, 3, 4 and 6.


-Remove the penalty krogan suffer versus armoured targets (this most definitely requires a patch)

This penalty makes no sense from a "lore" point of view for those who care, nor from a deisgn point of view. The destroyer stomping his foot gains 50% extra damage versus armour.... but a 1000kg krogan smashing into you causes is forced to pay a -25% penalty? See? COmpletely illogical.

This allows armoured units like goons, pyros, bombers etc to be killed in a single hit; assisting krogan out on later waves against geth (where virtually all your enemies require 2 melee attacks to kill) and certain waves versus cerberus.


Another patchable solution would be to code rage so it only requires one melee kill to refresh it once its active. 2 Kills to activate it, one to refresh it.


I'm not nearly naive enough to think that something will ever be done, but BioWare want feedback and such like, so feedback they will get.

Modifié par Annomander, 13 décembre 2012 - 03:21 .

[CmnDwnWrkn]

It's amazing that so many people are missing the point. Regardless of whose melee is more graceful, the fact is - the Asari heavy melee as stated does more damage than the Krogan's melee. That's insane and that's absurd.  Period.  Please stop trying to rationalize it.

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 13 décembre 2012 - 03:24 .

[Tankcommander]

TheKillerAngel wrote...

The asari is much less durable than a krogran, so on average it is more difficult to kill a target using her melee than any krogan kit's..

Tyrannus00 wrote...

Bout your graph there. It's got like seven things on the right side, and three on the left. Of course it's going to be unbalanced.

I've always got your back Annomander, but I can't say as I agree with you here....the Krogans need a bit of a melee buff for sure, but the Huntress is the only Asari I would dream of meleeing with...and even she sets you up to die quickly (freakin long windown).

[solidprice]

JohnDoe wrote...

DullahansXMark wrote...

The Krogan's melee is fast enough to hit those two other targets before the Asari finishes her orgasm, though.

except when the game stupidtly plays the attack animation and magically misses by an inch.. which means the enemy will be behind you, and if its a phantom.. you're pretty much dead..

this. very much so.

[BridgeBurner]

Tankcommander wrote...

I've always got your back Annomander, but I can't say as I agree with you here....the Krogans need a bit of a melee buff for sure, but the Huntress is the only Asari I would dream of meleeing with...and even she sets you up to die quickly (freakin long windown).

Its not a complaint about the huntress. I love the huntress, and I hope bioware keep her the way she is, which they already have alluded that they are considering.

It was more of a  don't "neglect the krogan" thread as opposed to a "nerf the huntress" thread. You know me, I love a good high-risk, moderate-reward melee build as much as the next Scotsman!

And the huntress right now is an amazing character.

The "balance scale" picture was also just for a joke, though admittedly bioware do cater to infiltrators more than is really necessary.

Modifié par Annomander, 13 décembre 2012 - 03:50 .

[rnc007]

Annomander wrote...

rnc007 wrote...

Re: melee builds are meh on gold

GI melee build - super spawn wiping awesome-sauce
Human Adapt melee build - high risk hilarity with right mix of awesome-sauce
Kroguard - I know how you feel about this, but seriously it's grin-inducing
Shadow - Space ninja awesome-sauce (even playing w/o shadow strike)
BroBrawler - Charge then light melee all the things - fun fun fun

I could go on. Some of my best ME3 moments have been playing melee characters on gold.

I burned a respec on this so will try a bit more to make it work but as of now I'm bearish.

Ok, you play a melee build.

I'll play a flamer-less geth soldier.

I'll get feneckus to play drell adept.

And Stardusk can snipe on tsol

Enjoy being "meh" when you are outclassed severely in damage output and nothing more than a glorified decoy.

You listed 2 infiltrators (lawl)
and 2 vanguards (free shields lawl)
and a human adept whom I garauntee is not even close to the huntress

A build can be FUN without being effective.

Melee fury is a blast, is it a chart topper gold build? No, of course not.

Melee krogan is fun, is it powerful enough? Comparatively, there's much room for improvement.

Pointless thread is pointless.

First - game on, I'll bring the GI melee build - on any small map I'll be competing with the Drell Adept for the top score.

Second, if your point is that the Krogan melee could use a buff, I don't disagree. Making that point from the fact that the Huntress has more theoretical damage on paper is dumb, b/c the huntress build is impractical and less fun (which is the synthesis of most of the objections on this thread).

Any one of those melee builds I listed above (except perhaps broguard) would outscore the huntress build you've listed (with equally skilled players) and they do less damage than the huntress. So they're more effective. And by the way, they're more fun.

Last, while I get your bias against OP classes, your elitist e-peen is showing - deal with it. There will always be some classes that are better than others. To a large extent, the reason I still find this game fun is there's a certain amount of challenge in taking classes that are relatively underpowered and being competitive with them in gold and platinum. Consider it like handicapping in bowling or golf.

By and large, I enjoy your posts - I just find this one to be pointless.

[Kushiel42]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

It's amazing that so many people are missing the point. Regardless of whose melee is more graceful, the fact is - the Asari heavy melee as stated does more damage than the Krogan's melee. That's insane and that's absurd.  Period.  Please stop trying to rationalize it.

People aren't missing that point. They're trying to put that point into the perspective of actual play, because that point (as you're making it out to be here) is a lore complaint, which a lot of people just don't care about one way or another.

That's not the thrust of Annomander's issue, though, as he's explained already.

[tonnactus]

Annomander wrote...


The majority of people who play melee on gold most likely aren't using the huntress, or a krogan sentinel. They'll be going kroguard. So why should only 1 krogan be the obvious choice for melee, when there are THREE other krogan who are interesting, and not cheap / easy mode insta-win, unlike a certain kroguard?

The Batarian is actually better then the Krogan Vanguard. (and at least in my games,more people play this)

[BlueTobimon]

\\Vote for krogan Warlord, with two shieldbars, one complete healthbar and ballistic blades.

[Titus Thongger]

kroguard only has durability on his side. other krogan trump him in damage potential. dont get all the hate for the kroguard who I think is perfectly balanced

and I do run my krogan sentinel on gold/plat more than I do my kroguard. On gold I generally tend to get the 50 melee kill most of the time (except against collectors). On platinum I'm less melee orientated and tend to use it as a backup for swiping away marauders, hunters etc

Modifié par Titus Thongger, 13 décembre 2012 - 08:08 .

[Saiyan1126]

BlueTobimon wrote...

Vote for krogan Warlord, with two shieldbars, one complete healthbar and ballistic blades.

Krogan really should have health regen, but it should be slower than Vorcha. Damn you, now I really want a Krogan with Ballistic Blades...

[Titus Thongger]

tonnactus wrote...

Annomander wrote...


The majority of people who play melee on gold most likely aren't using the huntress, or a krogan sentinel. They'll be going kroguard. So why should only 1 krogan be the obvious choice for melee, when there are THREE other krogan who are interesting, and not cheap / easy mode insta-win, unlike a certain kroguard?

The Batarian is actually better then the Krogan Vanguard. (and at least in my games,more people play this)

krogan sentinel in rage with a shotgun omni blade can melee harder than a kroguard can. you can do a geth prime's shields in 3 melees and knock about 2-3 bars of armor off per swing