136 réponses à ce sujet

[nightscrawl]

There is a problem with making fights more "interesting" and it can be summed up in one word: gimmick.

Take a game like World of Warcraft. There are hundreds of bosses. Certainly the numbers of WoW bosses will far exceed that of the entire Dragon Age franchise, even after DAX (10) is released. Because there are so many, they continually have to come up with fresh encounter designs. Raid bosses these days are far more complicated than they were when WoW was released eight years ago, but the player base is also more sophisticated and has more resources to deal with those (addons that track timers and such).

Because they have to design fights for dozens of bosses each new expansion, the occasional gimmicky fight mechanic slips in. Whether that be "driving" around a dragon and using special abilities, having a specific class (which is the only class) use a mind control ability on a mob, or some other thing. Many times these gimmicks don't contribute to the interest of the fight, but only add an obstacle to get through that becomes tiresome.

[edit]
Just a mention... I thought the final DA2 Meredith fight was the most interesting and fun boss fight from DAO, DA2, and all DLC combined.

Plaintiff wrote...

I sorely missed the sensation of wading through molasses.

This is my biggest complaint about the DAO combat. Not only does it look awkward for a character to keep their fighting stance while running to a mob that is far away, but it greatly hinders movement speed. I'm sure there were mechanical factors and all of that stuff. That doesn't change the fact that I found it annoying.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 12 décembre 2012 - 04:59 .

[TheRealJayDee]

Pedrak wrote...

The Dragon Ages series could indeed use some changes in the combat department:

- Less repetitive filler combat against trash mobs
- More enemy variety requiring to change tactics, weapons, spells depending on the creatures you are fighting
- No waves
- Quality over quantity: I don't need to be fighting something every two minutes: I'd rather have a shorter game and less fights, but of higher quality
- Never been a fan of boss fights, but if they have to be in, just giving them a ton of HPs does not make the fight interesting or challenging
- Friendly fire independent from difficulty level

Pretty much all of this.

abaris wrote...

Pedrak wrote...

DA2's combat I found cringingly bad.

Yeah, so bad that I decided on not buying after playing the demo. Combat may not be the most important game feature for me, but that total lack of immersion I felt when I experienced it, rolled the dice.

After playing the demo I could say with a rather large amount of certainty that I would not enjoy the combat part of DA2. It wasn't fun for me, and it didn't it feel very much like Dragon Age to me. I'd just hoped I'd like the rest of the game so much I wouldn't mind.

[Provi-dance]

You need to understand that the tactical aspects of positioning are made trivial if everyone can move and jump around at supersonic speed. Emphasis on reaching casters/archers.

Having your party members and enemies take some non-trivial time to reach the opponents deepens the tactical aspect of combat.

Attack and movement speed were fine in DAO.

[abaris]

nightscrawl wrote...

This is my biggest complaint about the DAO combat. Not only does it look awkward for a character to keep their fighting stance while running to a mob that is far away, but it greatly hinders movement speed. I'm sure there were mechanical factors and all of that stuff. That doesn't change the fact that I found it annoying.

I have to say the only problem I had with DA:O combat was the waddle to the toilet walk the characters assumed when readying themselves for a fight.

Otherwise it felt just fine for me. You felt the heavyness of the weapons and you could make your characters execute fighting manoevers that weren't over the top but effectful.

I guess the style of combat has to fit the overall experience. If I'm playing a medieval fantasy game I don't expect my character to act like a monkey on speed. I don't expect my enemies to disintegrate in a spray of blood unless the kind of attack warrants it. And I don't expect enemies to materialise out of thin air unless there's very good reason for that. Console limitations aren't. Only lore related reasons would be.

It really depends on the game. A cartoony game like kingdoms can go over the top, since that's what you expect. It also didn't bother me very much with games like the Saints Row series, since the setting is right for that kind of approach. But a lore driven series, taking itself more or less serious, has no place for the sudden manga feel.

TheRealJayDee wrote...

After playing the demo I could say
with a rather large amount of certainty that I would not enjoy the
combat part of DA2. It wasn't fun for me, and it didn't it feel very
much like Dragon Age to me. I'd just hoped I'd like the rest of the game
so much I wouldn't mind.

I didn't think so. If for no other reason then because the combat seemed to set the pace and I didn't want to feel revulsion whenever a fight cropped up.

Modifié par abaris, 12 décembre 2012 - 05:22 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

David Gaider wrote...

Having more interesting big combats (and also less "trash fights") is indeed one of the focuses of the combat team. It's nothing we can really talk about at this point, however.

Ten thousands hearts to BioWare.  This is the best tidbit I've heard so far. 

[nightscrawl]

Provi-dance wrote...

You need to understand that the tactical aspects of positioning are made trivial if everyone can move and jump around at supersonic speed. Emphasis on reaching casters/archers.

Having your party members and enemies take some non-trivial time to reach the opponents deepens the tactical aspect of combat.

Attack and movement speed were fine in DAO.

They were fine FOR YOU.

I don't want "supersonic speed," which is why I didn't bother to reference your remark about that. I want the same speed that they have while not in combat. That's not an outrageous increase. Moreover, I think my main gripe is with the awkward appearance of the movement, which wasn't at all an issue in DA2 since they changed animations, particularly with female characters.

I agree that DA2 rogues flying here, there, and everywhere, while fun, was a bit silly. I don't want that. I want them to, as Plaintiff referenced, not look like they are wading through molasses.

[Zippy72]

Personally, I enjoyed nearly all the combat in the da games. I don't find it tedious. One notable exception being the arishok fight.

Most fights can 'get away for you' at higher difficulty levels, which means planning and execution on the part of the player are paramount. While the combat remains challenging it avoids tedium imo.

[abaris]

nightscrawl wrote...
 I want them to, as Plaintiff referenced, not look like they are wading through molasses.

That's what I call the waddle to the toilet walk. I always associated it with someone being in bad need of a porta-John. But it was the only thing bothering me about DA:Os combat.

[Provi-dance]

nightscrawl wrote...

Provi-dance wrote...

You need to understand that the tactical aspects of positioning are made trivial if everyone can move and jump around at supersonic speed. Emphasis on reaching casters/archers.

Having your party members and enemies take some non-trivial time to reach the opponents deepens the tactical aspect of combat.

Attack and movement speed were fine in DAO.

They were fine FOR YOU.

I don't want "supersonic speed," which is why I didn't bother to reference your remark about that. I want the same speed that they have while not in combat. That's not an outrageous increase. Moreover, I think my main gripe is with the awkward appearance of the movement, which wasn't at all an issue in DA2 since they changed animations, particularly with female characters.

I agree that DA2 rogues flying here, there, and everywhere, while fun, was a bit silly. I don't want that. I want them to, as Plaintiff referenced, not look like they are wading through molasses.

No, they were fine from a tactical-rpg-combat perspective. For me and everyone who understands why speed is important. Animations have nothing to do with it.

DA2 combat speed is fine from an anime/pokemon perspective.

[Pzykozis]

David Gaider wrote...

sea- wrote...
Wasn't that a goal with Dragon Age 2 as well?  No offense, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Hence why we're waiting to discuss the matter further until we can actually show what we're working on. Until then, you'd only have us saying "this is our intention" and your only response would be to state your skepticism. Which is fair. If your expectation, however, is that we'd lay out all our plans without anything to show, engendering all sorts of questions which we could only answer with verbal description... then, no, that's not going to happen.

It'll be intriguing to see how you do it, since it's that tough position of words not being enough for some or most i guess but being shown it will be full of spoilers and ruin the suprise or maybe its just me being torn between ruining that new game feel and wanting to know more.

I demand from henceforth you accompany words with pictures completely irrelevant to the game that way you can show me without spoiling! That'll work.. right?

[upsettingshorts]

Boy am I sure glad to learn from this thread that velocity and tactics are not compatible.

[Plaintiff]

Provi-dance wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

Provi-dance wrote...

You need to understand that the tactical aspects of positioning are made trivial if everyone can move and jump around at supersonic speed. Emphasis on reaching casters/archers.

Having your party members and enemies take some non-trivial time to reach the opponents deepens the tactical aspect of combat.

Attack and movement speed were fine in DAO.

They were fine FOR YOU.

I don't want "supersonic speed," which is why I didn't bother to reference your remark about that. I want the same speed that they have while not in combat. That's not an outrageous increase. Moreover, I think my main gripe is with the awkward appearance of the movement, which wasn't at all an issue in DA2 since they changed animations, particularly with female characters.

I agree that DA2 rogues flying here, there, and everywhere, while fun, was a bit silly. I don't want that. I want them to, as Plaintiff referenced, not look like they are wading through molasses.

No, they were fine from a tactical-rpg-combat perspective. For me and everyone who understands why speed is important. Animations have nothing to do with it.

DA2 combat speed is fine from an anime/pokemon perspective.

"My idea of tactical combat is the only correct one and anybody who disagrees just doesn't 'get' what RPGs are really all about! Sweeping generalisation about a game series which I do not play and know little about!"

[Pzykozis]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Boy am I sure glad to learn from this thread that velocity and tactics are not compatible.

Clearly you can only accomplish things at slow speeds, its heresy to move fast and do things.

[Provi-dance]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Boy am I sure glad to learn from this thread that velocity and tactics are not compatible.

Good for you. But people need to read and sometimes even think a bit about what they've just read before being able to learn something new.

The thing is, you're just posting silly one-liners all over the forum, missing the point entirely in most cases.

It's not that "tactics and velocity aren't compatible", it's that it trivializes the importance of tactical positioning if everyone can reach casters and archers in 1 second, before you can even react.

[upsettingshorts]

Provi-dance wrote...

Good for you. But people need to read and sometimes even think a bit about what they've just read before being able to learn something new.

If only there was a way to put a brief, momentary stop to the action in order to collect your thoughts and re-orient your team.

If only.

Provi-dance wrote...


The thing is, you're just posting silly one-liners all over the forum, missing the point entirely in most cases.

Two posts in two threads is "all over the forum," and one of which is laughing at a poster who thinks the only reason for things he doesn't like in games is "laziness" is "missing the point entirely." 

Provi-dance wrote...

It's not that "tactics and velocity aren't compatible", it's that it trivializes the importance of tactical positioning if everyone can reach casters and archers in 1 second, before you can even react.

Truly.  I hope they implement some abilities that allow you to slow or stop oppposing forces.  Or at least some form of equally-fast teleportation that allows your team to reform automatically.  Maybe even some abilities that mages and rogues can use that protect themselves.  That wouldn't be tactical though.  

Sarcasm aside:  But I can't put my tank infront and expect to win!  You say.  Well, perhaps you need to update your damn tactics.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 décembre 2012 - 05:52 .

[abaris]

Provi-dance wrote...

It's not that "tactics and velocity aren't compatible", it's that it trivializes the importance of tactical positioning if everyone can reach casters and archers in 1 second, before you can even react.

Not to mention that materialising waves make tactical deployment redundant in any case. And not to mention that the style of combat has to fit the overall experience.

If it's manga or something cartoony, monkey jumps may even have their place.

[Provi-dance]

Plaintiff wrote...

"My idea of tactical combat is the only correct one and anybody who disagrees just doesn't 'get' what RPGs are really all about! Sweeping generalisation about a game series which I do not play and know little about!"

Awww, never good at offering sensible arguments, but excellent at sensless relativization.

/Relativization on
We can argue that eating an apple can also be a role playing game and that destroying said apple constitutes tactical combat, amrite?
Can eating an apple be a role-playing game? Of course! You can role-play you are someone who has never eaten an apple!
/off



To that other guy; pokemon is also an anime. Hence I slashed it with "anime".

[Pzykozis]

abaris wrote...

Provi-dance wrote...

It's not that "tactics and velocity aren't compatible", it's that it trivializes the importance of tactical positioning if everyone can reach casters and archers in 1 second, before you can even react.

Not to mention that materialising waves make tactical deployment redundant in any case. And not to mention that the style of combat has to fit the overall experience.

If it's manga or something cartoony, monkey jumps may even have their place.

It's the opposite really tactical deployment was more important, Strategic deployment took the backseat in DA2.

Tactics = minute to minute reacting to the current state of affairs.
Strategy = an overall plan.

[abaris]

Pzykozis wrote...

It's the opposite really tactical deployment was more important, Strategic deployment took the backseat in DA2.

Tactics = minute to minute reacting to the current state of affairs.
Strategy = an overall plan.

Right, I always keep mixing them up.

But point stands, it didn't fit the game and it wasn't much fun other than mashing a single button.

[Provi-dance]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

*bunch of failed sarcasm that points at pause*

Oh dear, you are right!
Pause! It turns back time, like in that Cher song, so when I pause the game 0,1 sec after the combat started enemies are not on my caster after I unpaused it because I just turned back time with that crucial pause!

Don't be ridiculous (even though you surely think you're very witty and phun with your unsuccessful sarcasm); I don't have problems defeating enemies in Bioware's games.
It's more about my party reaching and destroying enemy casters and archers.

Modifié par Provi-dance, 12 décembre 2012 - 06:11 .

[Maria Caliban]

Imp of the Perverse wrote...

Arishock... stop chugging the &^%$ing potions and die already.

Hee.

I liked how DXHR addressed the complaints about its boss fights when it released the missing link DLC, but it wouldn't really work here. It just wouldn't be a dragon age game without having to chop down a high dragon or two.

To some extent, I think the complaints about DXHR's boss battles were wrong.

A number of people thought you needed a specific build to proceed and that their stealth/hacking characters were being punished.

[Provi-dance]

Filament wrote...

Provi-dance wrote...

pokemon is also an anime. Hence I slashed it with "anime".

lol, well okay then Captain Redundancy. Comparing it to anime is inane regardless.

It was obviously not redundant since there are people like you, Captain NoComprendo, who misunderstood the reference, no?
Not everyone knows what's "anime", so they might be more familiar with the Pokemon cartoon.

[Maria Caliban]

sea- wrote...

B-but guys, isn't that what RPGs are all about? Combat and sexy cutscenes with sexy NPCs that you can fantasize about?

PLEASE BIOWARE, GIVE ME ENDLESS TRASH MOBS TO MIND-NUMBINGLY HOTKEY-MASH MY WAY THROUGH.  I DON'T WANT INTELLIGENT, VARIED, INTERESTING ENCOUNTER AND ENEMY DESIGN.  RPGS SHOULD HAVE AS LITTLE TO DO WITH COMPELLING SYTSTEMS DESIGN AS POSSIBLE AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH  DPS TREADMILL SKINNER BOX REWARDS.  DRAGON AGE MUST ASPIRE TO BE A SINGLE PLAYER WORLD OF WARCRAFT WITH BUDGET-INFLATING MOVIES TO WATCH IN ORDER TO TRULY EVOLVE THE GENRE.

I think someone lied about their age when they registered for the forums.

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'd like it if they tried a game where I could avoid combat altogether - I know it's not flashy enough to do that, too much high brow snobbery to be sure, but I'd still enjoy it.

Unnecessary swipes aside, I love it when a game lets me avoid combat through stealth, but I don't think the DA series will provide an entire game like that.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 12 décembre 2012 - 06:21 .