27 réponses à ce sujet

[Merle McClure II]

With most of Mass Effects' moral choices I can understand and come up with an IC reasonings to support either side of the argument; but unless I've seriously missed something from Noveria, I can't think of a single intelligent reason why Shepard would actually release the Queen from the labs given the risk of Rachni Wars II. 

Please note that what I'm actually looking for is an in-universe reason for Shepard to trust the Queen's word that she is willing to live in peace with the rest of the galaxy less than five minutes after meeting her as opposed to purely emotional or metagaming ones.

[The Grey Ranger]

In her conversations, she talks about the rachni being affected by a "sour note", this is probably the Reapers. It's also possible your Shepard is just morally opposed to committing genocide?

Modifié par The Grey Ranger, 12 décembre 2012 - 06:14 .

[capn233]

Also if you happen to go to the Hot Labs before you go fight Benezia and meet the Rachni queen, you run into Yaroslev Tartakovsky who at least gives you corroboration to the Queen's later statements that she isn't responsible for the hostile Rachni on Noveria. At the very least it is sort of like having a character witness.

At that point you either have to trust her about her history of the Rachni Wars or not. The sour yellow note implies they were being controlled by the Reapers (at least based on knowledge you would have in Mass Effect and not ME3). So if you think she is telling the truth about that, and that she is truthful in her promise not to be an aggressor in the future, then it might make sense.

It all really hinges on how much trust (or naivete) your Shepard has in the first game.

[Get Magna Carter]

The rachni queen has spent her whole life in captivity she is not responsible for any of the events on Noveria or for wars that occured before she was hatched.
She is completely innocent of any wrongdoing and promises to be good.
To kill her is an act of coldblooded murder.
Does your Shepard go round murdering random people (or everyone you meet) just in case they could do bad things in the future?

[Merle McClure II]

Honestly, the answer is as simple as; "It depends on what the 'bad things' that might happen are." Let me ask you a question back; would your Shepard doom a thousand innocents to die in order to save a million? Mine would; although he/she wouldn't sleep very well if at all for awhile afterwards but that is sometimes the price that you have to pay in order to keep the galaxy safe. And please, don't come back with the tired "finding another way"; that is only guaranteed to work in fictional stories and I personally don't believe Shepard should know that he/she is the lead in a video game. All he/she knows is that if he/she makes the wrong decision then people die.


However, as for the rest of your reasonings; although I agree that it is fairly clear that the Queen wasn't working with Saren and "probably" wasn't directly responcible for Peak 15 being overrun (Even with the information from the scientist in the Hot Labs I'm not quite sure I buy the latter given the way we are later led to believe Rachni communication works.), the fact remains that Rachni birthrates make even Krogan look tame in comparison; to the point that a single space station without a Queen can send two supply drones out and completely overrun two different star systems that are protected by; (1) a small hardened Alliance Bunker; (2) one hundred Alliance Troops within a matter of days/weeks. (Makes me wonder how many other planets are ticking time bombs full of Rachni nests.)

Modifié par Merle McClure II, 15 décembre 2012 - 11:24 .

[Get Magna Carter]

I just believe Shepard should not go around murdering innocents based on wild, paranoid speculation.
If you disagree, that is up to you

[Merle McClure II]

Meh, I disagree that giving the Queen an acid bath based off of the historical evidence AS WELL as what we personally witness on Peak 15, especically when we later discover exactly how dangerous the Rachni can be/are in the two side missions as "murdering innocents based on wild, paranoid speculation". If Shepard is wrong, then untold numbers of people die.

Whether or not it is the "right"" decision can be a matter of debate, but it seems to me that the agruments for saving the Queen are pretty much centered around the emotional side as opposed to the logical, at least thus far.

[PsiFive]

Depends how you see the Rachni. As GetMagnaCarter says, the individual herself has done nothing that we know of. If the Germans had been all but eradicated in 1945 would you kill one who turned up in 2012? On the other hand would you kick open a jar of smallpox now because that smallpox hasn't ever infected anyone? Comes down to whether you, or rather the Shepard you're playing, believes the Rachni queen is free willed and trustworthy or believes that the species is inherently dangerous to the rest of the galaxy just because its in their nature. Is she more like a German or more like an infectious disease that can't help killing even if it might be intelligent and able to apologise as it does.

My Shepard's have believed both - about two thirds let her go and a third gave her the acid.

[d4eaming]

My Shepard let her go. She wasn't responsible for what happened, and the other scientist confirmed that. He had renegade at about 3/4 AND paragon at about 3/4 by the end of the game. He reasoned that he couldn't commit genocide. He'd done other terrible things, but on a smaller scale. He simply couldn't justify destroying an entire species. He felt pretty crappy about Wrex and the genophage cure, too. He hated having to destroy that, and if the game had given the option, might even have refused to do so. At least the Krogan are actually able to breed, even if it's greatly reduced, and they still have a chance. The rachni wouldn't have had that.

[gamerjes]

Cannon Fodder. When I played ME1, when it first released, that was my reasoning. I figured I would eventually have to face the Reapers and felt a fast-breeding, war-experienced race of space bugs that owed me a favor would make a decent ally when the galaxy started to burn.

Of course, that was my Paragon run. My renegade torched her to make Wrex happy (who was in the party at the time). And considering how ME3 plays out, I don't regret either choice.

[Yate]

I did it because my asari girlfriend guilt-tripped me.

[kathic]

I destroyed her on my first (thus cannon) playthrough. They nearly destroyed the Galaxy so I figured they were too dangerous to let live.

[sweet-d]

Their's no reason to save her other then the fact that Shepard states that she can be an ally in the future. The fact is the Rachni are very scary and can't be trusted it's safer to kill her unless you wan't help in the future.

[RZIBARA]

 I saved her because she may prove useful in the future. I havent gotten to ME3 yet (just recently got the trilogy and im on ME2 now)

[Carol L S]

My Shepard doesn't feel she has the right to wipe out a species.

[Stathis1992]

By saving the rachni queen and saving her and on ME3 you lose 25 krogan war assets and you get 100 rachni assets, 75 assets profit, also, why the hell to kill an entire species?

[FickEA666]

Killing the Rachni Queen is like killing the last German to prevent another world war.

It's bigoted to assume that all of a species are responsible for the wars associated with them in the past, just as it is bigoted to assume any one German is likely to start WWIII.

[PsiFive]

FickEA666 wrote...

Killing the Rachni Queen is like killing the last German to prevent another world war.

It's bigoted to assume that all of a species are responsible for the wars associated with them in the past, just as it is bigoted to assume any one German is likely to start WWIII.

Agreed. I said before that it depends on whether Shepard sees the Rachnii as being like a German or as being like a germ. It's not even a pargon/renegade thing to me. Paragon or renegade, you'd probably drop the last vial of smallpox into a furnace without hesitation, and paragon or renegade you would not kill a German for being a German.

Having said that I have played Shepards who saw the Rachnii as more germ like, able to communicate and plead for life but also as unable to change their lethal nature as a virus is. Would I kill the last sample of smallpox if it was sentient and begged me not to? A renegade Shepard probably would, and two or three of mine have done the ME equivalent, but I'd really struggle to and I'd probably feel guilty as hell if I did.

[T-Raks]

Killed her the first time, because of fear. I feared we might have to fight them again in the future. Let her go in my most recent playthrough because I thought "killing the last of her kind" shouldn't be the decision of my Shep, but rather one of the council and if they decide even one Rachni queen is too dangerous, they can send me on a mission to solve THAT problem later. Right now we are in pursuit of Saren...

Modifié par T-Raks, 15 janvier 2013 - 09:36 .

[Ploppytheman]

T-Raks wrote...

Killed her the first time, because of
fear. I feared we might have to fight them again in the future. Let her
go in my most recent playthrough because I thought "killing the last of
her kind" shouldn't be the decision of my Shep, but rather one of the
council and if they decide even one Rachni queen is too dangerous, they
can send me on a mission to solve THAT problem later. Right now we are
in pursuit of Saren...

They already did decide that. Do you think they just suicided when they thought they lost the war? Why else would the scientists be there experimenting in the wild west of space where there is no  law? If anything you represent the galaxy in enforcing THEIR decision of eliminating them.

Get Magna Carter wrote...

The rachni queen has spent her
whole life in captivity she is not responsible for any of the events on
Noveria or for wars that occured before she was hatched.
She is completely innocent of any wrongdoing and promises to be good.
To kill her is an act of coldblooded murder.
Does
your Shepard go round murdering random people (or everyone you meet)
just in case they could do bad things in the future?

The best indication of future behavior is past behavior. If an insect race was capable of acting properly then they wouldn't have the history they did. Other species are individuals and unique, queens are bred for a function with certain instincts and the drones follow the queen.

FickEA666 wrote...

Killing the Rachni Queen is like killing the last German to prevent another world war.

It's
bigoted to assume that all of a species are responsible for the wars
associated with them in the past, just as it is bigoted to assume any
one German is likely to start WWIII.

Germans arent hive minded insects, but you can see what an ideology of the "master race" did, aka the hive. And Germans arent a species, many humans chose to fight against with many different ideologies and reasons.



Why to kill (not paragon or renegade just reasons, think alignment)

-Genocide decided already by council, lawful continuation of galactically decided decision that was obviously thought about, discussed, and looked at by top scientists, politicans, generals, etc more then what shephard is capable of determining based on a motivated manipulative last queen with acid barrels over her head. Are you so arrogant that you think you know better then a galaxy of thought?
-Required extreme means of breeding Krogans who themselves had to be neutered as the only way to stop Rachni
-Its
not genocide really, its one queen. You aren't going around killing
millions. And if genocide is really wrong then lets see how long the
galaxy lasts with krogans and rachni running rampant, some 3 stooges
syndrome (see simpsons), of the galaxy with rachni, krogan, reapers are trying to destroy everyone else.
-What about genocide of other
species? The krogan already have been genocided. So then should we not 
genocide the reapers? Replace reaper with rachni, they are essentially
the biological versions. Or is it ok to genocide machines? So what about
the Geth then?
-Came under reaper control and controlling a few
queens would be much easier then indoctrinating billions of individuals
(look how the geth were manipulated because of their singular
consciouness)
-Queen would say anything to live and sacrifice a few drones
-Require
control or they go berserk, what if reapers just assassinated queens or
indoctrinated them like before, consolidation of power is always a bad
thing, thats why high level officials are always indoctrinated, imagine
if that extended to everyone under their authority?
-Unity, part of
their strength is they are all in agreement with each other and seem to
be able to unite to spread, paired with aggressiveness and being born
ready to kill they are very deadly, like xenomorphs aka aliens from the
movie alien.
-Powerful psychic manipulation, how do you know the
queen isnt trying to manipulate you psychically? Besides just pleading
for her case for soft humans to let her go and lying. Being able to move a dead or near dead asari around make it likely she could manipulate you as well or your conrads.
-Someone
brought up they only went crazy cuz they had no mom and any other
species would too. No. They wouldn't. Not only do other species require
care for long periods of time before they are adults but they dont have
acid guns and claws and the physical ability to start war even if they
did go crazy.
-They are a hive of insects, their nature is to the
queen only and to die for her and of singular thought. They devour
everything around them and are incapable of diplomacy. They might be
temporarily useful versus the reapers but then you just replaced one
threat to all sentient life (and all other life for that matter, at
least reapers would leave non intelligent life alone) with another.
-Again, if sentience is the only requirement for allowing to let them live, them let the reapers live. Not every reaper is evil right?

Other
-There
are acid tanks and neutron bombs around these beasts for a reason, even
these careless profiteering scientists added these massive precautions
and it almost got out of hand already inside of a freaking glacier.
These are essentially xenomorphs. Remember these were young ones that didnt know anything and werent directed or coordinated by a queen in any way
-Krogan would fight the rachni, how
do I know? Because they are Krogan. The Krogan might even get so mad
they would join the reapers if they cured their genophage! Spite is its
own reward, and the Krogans number already was up. I could see them
suicide themselves to help the reapers easily, some bloody payback.
Krogans already dont cure the genophage they go out and fight while
their species is dying, no reason to think they wouldnt turn their guns
on the people who hurt them most.
-How could you demilitarize
xenomorphs? You can't. Japan was demilitarized IRL. Krogan was
demilitarized and also genocided. But what are you going to do cut off
the pointy parts of every bug? They will always be a threat.


All
these shows rachni are aggressive, deadly, unstable, and a massive
threat that were uncontrollable and had to be put down. This is even
worse since the reapers had controlled them, and even if the reapers
dont reindoctrinate them there is not telling if they will even consider
peace or care if they get exterminated because they took on the entire
galaxy before.


Psychi space faring xenomorphs
Zerg not guided by Xel Naga
Tyrannids
The Flood
etc

Modifié par Ploppytheman, 20 janvier 2013 - 10:00 .

[Get Magna Carter]

Ploppytheman wrote...

Get Magna Carter wrote...

The rachni queen has spent her
whole life in captivity she is not responsible for any of the events on
Noveria or for wars that occured before she was hatched.
She is completely innocent of any wrongdoing and promises to be good.
To kill her is an act of coldblooded murder.
Does
your Shepard go round murdering random people (or everyone you meet)
just in case they could do bad things in the future?

The best indication of future behavior is past behavior. If an insect race was capable of acting properly then they wouldn't have the history they did. Other species are individuals and unique, queens are bred for a function with certain instincts and the drones follow the queen.

Except the information on the past behaviour is very unclear.  The Rachni war was before humans encountered the citadel races and the reports we have only tell one side of the story possibly distorted by prejudice.
What we know is there was a bad first contact which led to war but difficulties with communications meant it was much harder to bring to a peaceful solution than the war when humans had a bad first contact with the Turians.
Add in suggestions that a Reaper may have been interfering with the rachni.
Ultimately, the Citadel races defeated the Rachni and what they learned from that war would give them an advantage in a second war leading to a swifter victory especially given the Rachni's weaker starting position.
The main thing the Rachni Queen has learned from the war is that a war with the citadel races is a bad idea and so is likely sincere in her desire for a peaceful coexistence and any offspring she raises properly (unlike the ones in the hot labs which she states are outside her control and need to be destroyed) will be educated accordingly.

Remember, the Rachni queen is a sentient organic and thus is a PERSON not a monster or a thing.  She has committed no crimes and (unlike the Thorian) displayed no hostile intentions.
Killing her is not only murder but genocide and could lose you a potential ally. 

[PsiFive]

Cutting to the chase here, you should save the Rachni. Because 100 EMS in the 3rd game. 

[Baltherion]

Risk management. To take a risk or not to take, that is the problem. Is the risk to kill the queen or is the risk letting her live and if they both are risks, which one is a better risk and where you stand when deciding what is "the best". Best for humans? Best for the Council? Best for yourself as an individual? Best for Rachni? Is best for Rachni less meaningful than best for the Council? Does anyone have an authority to commit a genocide even if one has the power to do it? Who decides that?

I think that sometimes our goals are misplaced and instead of aiming for the best solutions we try to make mathematically logical decisions. Being a human is being irrational as well as rational. Our emotions,sub-conscius etc. can be seen as decision making tools as well as our intelligence. If you manage to gain the "balanced best of both worlds" then most likely you are making better decisions than someone else who tries to achieve pure rationality for example.

Shepard is a typical human, making decisions as humans do. What makes Shepard a good leader, is not his skill to be inhuman, or his skill to avoid mistakes, it is his capability to carry the responsibility which comes with the freedom to do decisions.

Why let the Rachni live? Because killing her is most likely a pretty permanent decision. You kill possible future opportunities. Most likely the queen is stuck on the planet for quite a while, so the situation is under control and corrective decisions can be made afterwards. The Rachni were defeated once and most likely they can be defeated again if the situation does not develop well enough for everyone. The point is, that if you end up killing her, she will be dead, no one is going to visit the afterlife to bring her back. But this is not The Answer, this is an answer with some arguments. The truth is out there.

You can't trust the queen and really, you can't rationally trust anyone ever. You won't ever know enough and trust is something that can always be betrayed no matter how much you trust. The amount of your trust won't measure anything except how much you trust. There is no way of knowing enough anything logical or rational that would solve this situation. Decisions will happen inside of you, in the irrational environment where fact, fiction and emotion are all mixed in the chaos of thoughts. You can't sort that chaos out, instead you need to live in it and be unafraid.

Shepard pulls out decisons from that chaos hoping for the best. Do you think Shepard stopped to think and analyze when he threw Joker in the escape pod sacrificing himself? In the end however, there were two people alive instead of one, so that seemed to be a good decision even though there was no time to use any kind of rational or logical analyzis. Be a human because that's what you are. Do what you think is right and take the responsibility of your actions. That is the only logically and rationally intact answer you ever will be given.

Modifié par Baltherion, 22 février 2013 - 11:28 .

[Lavaeolus]

Shepard should already at this point know of indoctrination, from Benezia and possibly the Virmire dudes; it doesn't take much to make the link when she mentions a "sour note". In which case, the rachni weren't the ones who caused the war, and you may as well wipe out every race just in case they end up indoctrinated. But, okay, maybe she just overheard Benezia when you were talking to her. Maybe she's just trying to quickly grab it as an excuse.

The thing is, the Rachni Queen at all talking with you just does not match up with the events of the Rachni War. The rachni are supposed to be irredeemably hostile: they would not calmly ask you to let them free, and even point out your alternate option of aciding them. Consider something: Shepard wasn't there for the wars. All he has are old stories. To assume the Queen is going to start a war could be a big leap of faith. A big fear reaction.

Also, there may be a bunch of ****ing giant machine gods coming that desire nothing but the destruction of all organic life. You say these guys were able to rage a giant war with every other Council race? Why, that's actually quite useful! Especially if they owed their existence to you. There's still a risk of them not really caring that you saved their lives, but that's up to your Shepard to consider and judge; after all, there are Paragon and Renegade choices for a reason.

Modifié par Mr Maniac, 24 février 2013 - 02:52 .