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No more class

Débuté par Guest_Nizaris1_* , déc. 12 2012 03:11

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#1
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 03:11

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Well, Bioware always love the classic Warrior, Rogue and Mage class in games, now if inspired by Skyrim, why not  throw away classes and let the players creating own class with whatever skills you guys give?

Of couse TES also have basic Combat, Stealth and Magic skills to "practice" on, which we use most determine what class we are and what we want to be. practice make perfect

So using similar way, why not just give every skills to the player without class restriction to choose on, everything meaning there is no more "skills belong to certain class", if the player want sneaking they choose sneaking skill at level up, if they want combat, they choose whatever combat skill when level up, and so with magic.

Now, i know Mage are born Mages, at least that what everybody believe, but Templars who use lyrium (or so DA2 says and not according to Alistair) can develop magical skill, since DA3 is about Mage vs Templar, the Veil got thin, maybe everyone can use magic?

And if want to make more interesting, specialization and some skills are learned via books, trainers, demons, spirits or whatever, so long as the player didn't learn, the specialization are locked, and if unlocked in one playthrough, it is locked again in new playthrough

What do you guys think?

Modifié par Nizaris1, 12 décembre 2012 - 03:15 .

#2
The Elder King
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 03:24

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Templar's skills works only against mages. And the Veil's thinnier status wouldn't trasform everyone in mages. It'll let demons in Thedas easier. There's no connection between the weakening of the Veil and people having magical abilities.
Even though I don't like a bit the idea of having everyone mages,  since it's completely against the lore, and having a solution like this would be even worse than the "space magic" in Synthesis(and in Skyrim non EVERYONE has magic, the PC can, because you have complete freedom in creating him. The other NPC aren't all mages), if they'll ever go to that route, they should let a game explain this process, and then showing the results (everyone mage) in the next game. They would've to show "the process" of making everyone mages in DA3, and then showing the results in DA4.

Modifié par hhh89, 12 décembre 2012 - 03:25 .

#3
Guest_FemaleMageFan_*
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 03:25

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They want to have character classes sort of tie in the story(which i like btw) so i doubt if such a system could be implemented

#4
SpunkyMonkey
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 03:28

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Really don't see how they could meld that into the lore set by the previous games.

Templars Vs Mages when they could all be either by choice? Makes no sense. A "Thin Veil" is a nice try, but i just think it would confuse too many people unnecessarily. As would the whole shift in lore and massive leap in game mechanics - it goes against what people expect.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 12 décembre 2012 - 03:33 .

#5
Dhiro
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 03:29

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hhh89 wrote...

Templar's skills works only against mages. And the Veil's thinnier status wouldn't trasform everyone in mages. It'll let demons in Thedas easier. There's no connection between the weakening of the Veil and people having magical abilities.
Even though I don't like a bit the idea of having everyone mages,  since it's completely against the lore, and having a solution like this would be even worse than the "space magic" in Synthesis(and in Skyrim non EVERYONE has magic, the PC can, because you have complete freedom in creating him. The other NPC aren't all mages), if they'll ever go to that route, they should let a game explain this process, and then showing the results (everyone mage) in the next game. They would've to show "the process" of making everyone mages in DA3, and then showing the results in DA4.


What s/he said.

Now, I wouldn't mind if everybody could learn Stealth or Lockpicking (or whatever) regardless of their class.

#6
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 03:31

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Since our PC will be an investigator or so...surely need some "rogue skill", but surely not everybody want to play as a Rogue, and if an Inquisitor is sent by the Chantry, a Mage is not suitable

So an Inquisitor is must be a "sneaky stealth warrior using two handed sword with heavy armor who can blast enemies with fireball and a very persuasive"

Or...'a combat archer who use Blood Magic to dominate people mind and extract information'

Modifié par Nizaris1, 12 décembre 2012 - 03:38 .

#7
sea-
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 03:36

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I don't understand classless systems. I grew up playing MMORPGs, and I thought the game was supposed to be about the holy trinity of DPS/tank/healer. Are you saying that it is possible to have less rigid gameplay systems with more varied mechanics and possibilities for character creation?  That sounds like heresy to me.  Besides, how will BioWare ever achieve success with the glorious 25-40 stay at home mom demographic?

Instead, I propose more rope-cutting in this game.  Touch screen interface, too, and maybe some sort of cash shop that allows gamers to pay money to bypass artificially lengthy and unfun tasks.

Modifié par sea-, 12 décembre 2012 - 03:38 .

#8
Ageless Face
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 03:41

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Since even on Skyrim I played a pure rouge, it won't bother me if they make the classes either way. Just as long BioWare won't use Skyrim's leveling up system.

#9
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 03:43

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Even when there is no class, there will be DPS, tank, healer or nuker if the player set it up to be like that.

Just look at TES, although most people playing hybrid, but their set up is DPS, tank,.healer or nuker

But today trend, it look like peoples are more to hybrid class, jack of all trade or "i can do everything" type of game play...i do make a poll in TES forum, mostly choose a mix of everything or hybrid, mostly "stealth-assassin with magic" type of a character and "magical-warrior" type of character

edit : pure warrior, rogue and mage are considered old and out dated, none choose them

Modifié par Nizaris1, 12 décembre 2012 - 03:45 .

#10
Boss Fog
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 03:49

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Not going to happen. Wouldn't work with the lore they've established nore the party based composition. Having a character that could fill multiple roles in combat would likely break the game.

Also, an investigator doesn't need "rogue" abilities nor needs to be able to "throw fireballs" in order to be persuasive. That's what the companions and allies are for. Stop trying to make this game into something its not. If they're going to take anything from Skyrim, it should end at the exploration.

#11
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 03:57

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In my opinion, DA don't have pure Warrior and Rogue actually, but maybe pure Mage

Warrior and Rogue both have "magic" in DA:O and DA2

Templar - anti magic warrior
Champion - can throw enemies in AoE
Reaver - need to say, demonic warrior
Beserker - have healing, enhanced speed (DA2) and natural resistance

Warrior combat skills are not actually "physical" or "real", it have enhanced by "magical" things such as speed effect, AoE effect, graphic effect, immunities and so on...

Rogues can become invisible, teleport, enhanced speed, force jump, have magical flask...

Both Warrior and Rogue have anti-gravity killing blow in DA:O

So, even if anyone want to argue about "pure warrior" or "pure rogue", there are none actually

#12
SpunkyMonkey
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 04:01

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Nizaris1 wrote...

In my opinion, DA don't have pure Warrior and Rogue actually, but maybe pure Mage

Warrior and Rogue both have "magic" in DA:O and DA2

Templar - anti magic warrior
Champion - can throw enemies in AoE
Reaver - need to say, demonic warrior
Beserker - have healing, enhanced speed (DA2) and natural resistance

Warrior combat skills are not actually "physical" or "real", it have enhanced by "magical" things such as speed effect, AoE effect, graphic effect, immunities and so on...

Rogues can become invisible, teleport, enhanced speed, force jump, have magical flask...

Both Warrior and Rogue have anti-gravity killing blow in DA:O

So, even if anyone want to argue about "pure warrior" or "pure rogue", there are none actually


Technically no, but all you are doing there is re-defining what Rogues and Warriors actually do, According to lore neither have those abilities because of anything to do with magic. Even lyrium is a finite substance, unlike magic which is produced from the mage themselves.

What you suggests may be do-able, but in doing it you make a mockery of past lore and de-rail the series core structure.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 12 décembre 2012 - 04:02 .

#13
JCAP
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 04:01

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Maybe it is not a good idea.

Like you said, mages are born mages. Sure, our character can be a mage, and have hided for all his life his abilities in order to have a normal life, and now that he needs it, he will develop it.

Although that makes an interesting scenario (imagine your companions reaction when you cast for the first time a spell), what excuse will the developers use for the next game? (assuming that will have a new character) Thick veil? And in the next one? Exposure to an unknown lyrium? Etc... It starts to feel "off", like, something is wrong...

And the other people interact with the PC according to his class, so if you have something similar to TES... Not impossible, but difficult to make it convincing.

#14
Boss Fog
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 04:04

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Nizaris1 wrote...

In my opinion, DA don't have pure Warrior and Rogue actually, but maybe pure Mage

Warrior and Rogue both have "magic" in DA:O and DA2

Templar - anti magic warrior
Champion - can throw enemies in AoE
Reaver - need to say, demonic warrior
Beserker - have healing, enhanced speed (DA2) and natural resistance

Warrior combat skills are not actually "physical" or "real", it have enhanced by "magical" things such as speed effect, AoE effect, graphic effect, immunities and so on...

Rogues can become invisible, teleport, enhanced speed, force jump, have magical flask...

Both Warrior and Rogue have anti-gravity killing blow in DA:O

So, even if anyone want to argue about "pure warrior" or "pure rogue", there are none actually


You're making the mistake of assuming in combat abilities are "magical."  They aren't; they're just designed in a way similar to MMOs to allow faster mobility on the battle field.  Also, rogues don't go invisible, they're essentially hiding.  

What killing blow in DA:O is gravity defying?  I surely don't remember one.  If you're referring to jumping up on an Ogre's chest and stabbing it to death, I'm not really following how you find that to be gravity defying.  You're taking all of these traits of rogues and warriors way too literally.

#15
JCAP
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 04:12

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Nizaris1 wrote...

but Templars who use lyrium (or so DA2 says and not according to Alistair) can develop magical skill, since DA3 is about Mage vs Templar, the Veil got thin, maybe everyone can use magic?


Don't misunderstand, lyrium help (or maybe not) templars dispel magic and inhibit spellcasting, it doesn't turn a templar to an "temporary mage".

And when Veil is thin, the only consequence (correct if i am wrong) is the easiness that the spirits and demons have to come to the "real" world.

#16
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 04:12

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SpunkyMonkey wrote..
Technically no, but all you are doing there is re-defining what Rogues and Warriors actually do, According to lore neither have those abilities because of anything to do with magic. Even lyrium is a finite substance, unlike magic which is produced from the mage themselves.

What you suggests may be do-able, but in doing it you make a mockery of past lore and de-rail the series core structure.


Of course it is not magic, that is why i wrote "magic". They are magical effect, meaning " a warrior who never learn magic can push everybody surround him/her using invisible force power"...so please don't take advantage on my poor English

JCAP wrote...
And the other people interact with the PC according to his class, so if you have something similar to TES... Not impossible, but difficult to make it convincing.


Why should people interact with the PC according to class? It is not like "soldier" or "policemen", those are ranks, not class.

I mean, when you talk to a soldier, you talk to a soldier, not warrior. A warrior doesn't mean a soldier, if you understand what i mean.

How do we know a person is a mage if he/she didn't wear "mage robe" and carrying a staff behind his/her back?

Modifié par Nizaris1, 12 décembre 2012 - 04:15 .

#17
Forst1999
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 04:15

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As others have pointed out, it just doesn't work with the lore. And as the mage/non-mage distinction is pretty important in this setting, that's nothing to ignore.
Also I don't think it would be good for the gameplay. Skyrim is a single character RPG, so giving you access to everything is a good thing there (though I personally prefer pure classes, but that's not really the topic). In a RPG build upon party combat however, I just don't think this would be beneficial.

#18
SpunkyMonkey
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 04:17

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Nizaris1 wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote..
Technically no, but all you are doing there is re-defining what Rogues and Warriors actually do, According to lore neither have those abilities because of anything to do with magic. Even lyrium is a finite substance, unlike magic which is produced from the mage themselves.

What you suggests may be do-able, but in doing it you make a mockery of past lore and de-rail the series core structure.


Of course it is not magic, that is why i wrote "magic". They are magical effect, meaning " a warrior who never learn magic can push everybody surround him/her using invisible force power"...so please don't take advantage on my poor English

JCAP wrote...
And the other people interact with the PC according to his class, so if you have something similar to TES... Not impossible, but difficult to make it convincing.


Why should people interact with the PC according to class? It is not like "soldier" or "policemen", those are ranks, not class.

I mean, when you talk to a soldier, you talk to a soldier, not warrior. A warrior doesn't mean a soldier, if you understand what i mean.

How do we know a person is a mage if he/she didn't wear "mage robe" and carrying a staff behind his/her back?


Sorry, I wasn't trying to take advantage, I was just trying to point out that I still don't see how it could practically work without changing so many rules, laws, lores and boundaries that it would mess up the games core structure?

#19
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 04:24

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About party members...in all Bioware games, there are default free skills for them, determine what they originally are, for example Wayne have healing spell, Zevran have dual sweep, Sten have two handed weapon skill...similarly, the party member can have default skills, but all skills are there for us to customize.

I mean, originally John Doe is a weapon and shield make him a soldier type, we can change that dude after he join our party becoming sneaky type of character or using magic type of character or whatever we want

Similar with Jane Doe have Fire Ball, making her a magic type, but after she join our party we can give her sword and shield skill making her magical warrior or whatever we want

Lore-wise, anything can happen in magical world of Thedas....so, the writers just need to explain something...

#20
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 04:30

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Okay...let see...

Why should a mage cannot use sword and shield, become sneaky assassin, or a thief? They can actually.

But for "non-Mage" in DA cannot use magic, that is a problem when making Mages are like X-Men...

So, they just need to make explanatrion on why all people can use magic and drive the Chantry crazy...maybe The Maker just want to troll them or so...they are so hate mages, The Maker make everyone can use magic...if The maker is a "God", why can't He do that?

#21
hexaligned
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 04:39

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I very much prefer open skill/stat based leveling systems myself, rather than class based. I also don't see how it goes against the lore, if a character can use any magic ability, they were obviously born with the ability to do so. There are plenty of mages in DA that never set foot in a chantry tower.

That being said, I don't need every RPG to have that freedom. DA's system is pretty bare bones though, there is definitely room for improvement in the system they have in place. Adding some new combat mechanics, and tailoring some of the specializations to make use of them, would probably be a better route to take for the series.

#22
JCAP
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 04:39

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Nizaris1 wrote...

JCAP wrote...
And the other people interact with the PC according to his class, so if you have something similar to TES... Not impossible, but difficult to make it convincing.


Why should people interact with the PC according to class? It is not like "soldier" or "policemen", those are ranks, not class.

I mean, when you talk to a soldier, you talk to a soldier, not warrior. A warrior doesn't mean a soldier, if you understand what i mean.

How do we know a person is a mage if he/she didn't wear "mage robe" and carrying a staff behind his/her back?




Dragon Age 2: Vincento - "Maldicion! You're a mage!"

Without that feature, we don't have this alternative playthroughs. Of course, Bethany could be the one showing that she is a mage...

And this feature should remain, one of Dragon Age main focus is the plot, and NPC's recognizing the PC class, gender, etc is critical. And this gives more replayability value.



So, they just need to make explanatrion on why all people can use magic and drive the Chantry crazy...maybe The Maker just want to troll them or so...they are so hate mages, The Maker make everyone can use magic...if The maker is a "God", why can't He do that?


So, they "just" need to compromise all their story and facts established in their previous games and make it all look "plausible"?

Easy enough it seems...

Modifié par JCAP, 12 décembre 2012 - 04:42 .

#23
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 04:51

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JCAP wrote...
Without that feature, we don't have this alternative playthroughs. Of course, Bethany could be the one showing that she is a mage...


Yeah, not only him...but Alistair too...my Solona wearing Circle Mage robe and carrying a staff she stole from the Circle repository...he ask "..you not happen to be another Mage?"...then "Ah yes you must be the new recruit from the Tower of Magi...I SHOULD RECOGNIZE YOU EARLIER" (Solona and the Circle mage who Alistair harassing have no difference in appearance at all)

So...without wearing robes and staff, could anyone know a person is a Mage as a class?

It is like Mage = Mutan....and not Mage = Magic Users as a class

Modifié par Nizaris1, 12 décembre 2012 - 04:54 .

#24
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 05:00

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Funnily my Solona have become an Arcane Warrior, wearing heavy armor , sword and shield, but the revered mother Hannah at Redcliff know she is a Mage, Solona ask "You know i am a Mage?"...but Murdoc don't know, Solona say "I am a Mage too" making Murdoc scared

Modifié par Nizaris1, 12 décembre 2012 - 05:01 .

#25
JCAP
Posté 12 décembre 2012 - 05:08

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Nizaris1 wrote...

JCAP wrote...
Without that feature, we don't have this alternative playthroughs. Of course, Bethany could be the one showing that she is a mage...


Yeah, not only him...but Alistair too...my Solona wearing Circle Mage robe and carrying a staff she stole from the Circle repository...he ask "..you not happen to be another Mage?"...then "Ah yes you must be the new recruit from the Tower of Magi...I SHOULD RECOGNIZE YOU EARLIER" (Solona and the Circle mage who Alistair harassing have no difference in appearance at all)

So...without wearing robes and staff, could anyone know a person is a Mage as a class?

It is like Mage = Mutan....and not Mage = Magic Users as a class



Stop that, you know what I mean and you are being a kid about it <_<

You know that the engine AI is limited right? They don't recognize anyone by their clothes, but by their "ID". And will react according to their script.

Look at the DA2, where you can do magic right in front of the templars and they just don't care. TES system can make more of this situations, even in dialogue.

Modifié par JCAP, 12 décembre 2012 - 05:10 .

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