362 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

As far as OP: BW gives an interview admitting their mistakes and saying they've learned their lesson, and you do nothing but criticize them for it.

This is why it would have been worthless for them to apologize for the ending.

[3DandBeyond]

JamieCOTC wrote...

So we live w/ Shepard through 3 games and they didn't think we would get attactched to him/her?  Wow.
------------------

Actually, they did know that some people wouldn't like the ending, they just underestimated the reaction. 

Honestly, it makes you wonder just what drugs some people are on.  It's incredible to me that someone could say with a straight face that no one disagreed on any subject.  We aren't drones, and everyone has their own ideas and thoughts, so him saying that no one thought people would dislike it, is just stupid.  And then, here you have proof that it's a lie.

Of course, then you have to look at all the other garbage that's in that interview, too.  They wouldn't do a "Lost" ending-yeah, well BS.  They did do a "Lost" ending where they raise a whole lot of questions.  The player is the architect of what happens.  Triple BS with a pile of poo on top.  These people would not know the truth if it was a certified letter from God or some deity or the harbinger of truth.  They certainly don't know how to speak it.

[Wayning_Star]

Nightwriter wrote...

I originally thought it was perfectly clear that the breath scene is meant to indicate life. Then what's-his-face made that comment about death gasps and such. Then other people told me he was just making a spiteful joke. Then I asked for proof that it was a joke. Then they fell silent.

isn't it all, mass effect stuff, just hints at the "truth", DLC depending? For all the time spent in the MEU to develop the story, the consensus only takes a few seconds to realize, but never fully understood,eh?

[LinksOcarina]

3DandBeyond wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Jessica Merizan also has said that in any future ME game, Synthesis will have happened. 

One of the only two posts by Jessica Merizan I've ever seen on the story forum in the 6 months I've been reading it was a denial she ever meant to say that. She says that is her 'personal canon' or something to that effect.

Her other post was a denial of having said something too.

Might be some retconning going on, considering this is how they've done a lot of things.  They say one thing (she said it to fans at a fan party and more than one person said that is what she said), and later on say another.  It's getting really tiresome.

No. I just becomes a "he said, she said" type of deal.

In the end we will see the truth when mass effect  4 or whatever it is called comes out. 

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

So we live w/ Shepard through 3 games and they didn't think we would get attactched to him/her?  Wow.
------------------

Actually, they did know that some people wouldn't like the ending, they just underestimated the reaction. 

Honestly, it makes you wonder just what drugs some people are on.  It's incredible to me that someone could say with a straight face that no one disagreed on any subject.  We aren't drones, and everyone has their own ideas and thoughts, so him saying that no one thought people would dislike it, is just stupid.  And then, here you have proof that it's a lie.

Of course, then you have to look at all the other garbage that's in that interview, too.  They wouldn't do a "Lost" ending-yeah, well BS.  They did do a "Lost" ending where they raise a whole lot of questions.  The player is the architect of what happens.  Triple BS with a pile of poo on top.  These people would not know the truth if it was a certified letter from God or some deity or the harbinger of truth.  They certainly don't know how to speak it.

I have to wonder why do you rail so against the machine?

[SpamBot2000]

3DandBeyond wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

So we live w/ Shepard through 3 games and they didn't think we would get attactched to him/her?  Wow.
------------------

Actually, they did know that some people wouldn't like the ending, they just underestimated the reaction. 

Honestly, it makes you wonder just what drugs some people are on.  It's incredible to me that someone could say with a straight face that no one disagreed on any subject.  We aren't drones, and everyone has their own ideas and thoughts, so him saying that no one thought people would dislike it, is just stupid.  And then, here you have proof that it's a lie.

Of course, then you have to look at all the other garbage that's in that interview, too.  They wouldn't do a "Lost" ending-yeah, well BS.  They did do a "Lost" ending where they raise a whole lot of questions.  The player is the architect of what happens.  Triple BS with a pile of poo on top.  These people would not know the truth if it was a certified letter from God or some deity or the harbinger of truth.  They certainly don't know how to speak it.

Ah, 'Honest Mike' Gamble, the straightest shooter in all the praerie. 

[Wayning_Star]

face it fans, until BiowarEa releases "The Canon" DLC, you'll be grumpy..lol

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 13 décembre 2012 - 05:02 .

[3DandBeyond]

CronoDragoon wrote...

As far as OP: BW gives an interview admitting their mistakes and saying they've learned their lesson, and you do nothing but criticize them for it.

This is why it would have been worthless for them to apologize for the ending.

The problem is he says they admit their mistakes, but then says they couldn't foresee them, but they could have and should have.  And even he isn't truly seeing the mistakes that were made-how could he since no one at BW thought they made any.  As yet, they have failed to show that they even understand the mistakes that they are still making or they have yet to fix.  This is my opinion.  They believe the EC solved the problem, fixed the mistakes, but it didn't.  If you can't see what you did wrong, you can't fix it.  And they've shown all along an unwillingness to even (not discuss, not apologize), to show that they do "get it".  They should have tried to attempt to address their inability to do the things they hyped and they should have tried to at least do some of those things they hyped.

Any apology they could give would be unsatisfactory because it would be like slapping someone and then saying "I'm sorry you made me slap you".  Understanding the real issues would be saying, "I'm sorry for doing that, it was wrong and it hurt you."  I'm sure that legally BW can't say they misled or "deceived" with their hype, so an apology will never happen for this.  They could however have tried to make it right in some way by using the EC to really do something-but other than some changes that make no sense and others that don't fix things enough, the EC doesn't fix what has always been wrong.  The EC shows that they don't understand what they did wrong.

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

As far as OP: BW gives an interview admitting their mistakes and saying they've learned their lesson, and you do nothing but criticize them for it.

This is why it would have been worthless for them to apologize for the ending.

The problem is he says they admit their mistakes, but then says they couldn't foresee them, but they could have and should have.  And even he isn't truly seeing the mistakes that were made-how could he since no one at BW thought they made any.  As yet, they have failed to show that they even understand the mistakes that they are still making or they have yet to fix.  This is my opinion.  They believe the EC solved the problem, fixed the mistakes, but it didn't.  If you can't see what you did wrong, you can't fix it.  And they've shown all along an unwillingness to even (not discuss, not apologize), to show that they do "get it".  They should have tried to attempt to address their inability to do the things they hyped and they should have tried to at least do some of those things they hyped.

Any apology they could give would be unsatisfactory because it would be like slapping someone and then saying "I'm sorry you made me slap you".  Understanding the real issues would be saying, "I'm sorry for doing that, it was wrong and it hurt you."  I'm sure that legally BW can't say they misled or "deceived" with their hype, so an apology will never happen for this.  They could however have tried to make it right in some way by using the EC to really do something-but other than some changes that make no sense and others that don't fix things enough, the EC doesn't fix what has always been wrong.  The EC shows that they don't understand what they did wrong.

I'd say that is pretty much an impossible task, to prequel the fans of mass effect. Understanding all those fans is, well.. I don't know.. what IS understanding all those fans?

[Nightwriter]

crimzontearz wrote...

"I am happy with how the extended cut turned out. I think we did a good job of trying to wrap those choices up and reflect that back to the player in a fair and responsible way. it's a good learning experience for us in the future, in that you can underestimate how much people love their characters. So we'll be watching that much more carefully next time"

Bah. How can I trust them with a protagonist again. Investing in a custom PC isn't safe anymore. Gonna have to constantly worry they'll kill him/her off without even understanding why that's upsetting.

[Iakus]

3DandBeyond wrote...

The problem is he says they admit their mistakes, but then says they couldn't foresee them, but they could have and should have.  And even he isn't truly seeing the mistakes that were made-how could he since no one at BW thought they made any.  As yet, they have failed to show that they even understand the mistakes that they are still making or they have yet to fix.  This is my opinion.  They believe the EC solved the problem, fixed the mistakes, but it didn't.  If you can't see what you did wrong, you can't fix it.  And they've shown all along an unwillingness to even (not discuss, not apologize), to show that they do "get it".  They should have tried to attempt to address their inability to do the things they hyped and they should have tried to at least do some of those things they hyped

This.  It's the "We couldn't have known" part that's absolutely stupifying.

When the rumors began circulating a good week or so before the release date, I knew "fans are gonna riot over this"  And even then I underestimated the backlash.

And yet no one who actually worked on the game, or on the marketing of it, forsaw this?

And yeah, Bioware breaking its arm patting itself on the back over EC really doesn't help inspire confidence that "they'll do better next time" either.  Then refusing to discuss the endings at all either before or after EC, leds me to wonder if they even care at all about player opinions

[Wayning_Star]

This all kind of reminds me of the http://en.wikipedia....ack_swan_theory
She took her part a bit tooooo personal..

edit: had to change the URL, as that old one didn't link well..

another link.. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0947798/

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 13 décembre 2012 - 05:24 .

[Iakus]

Nightwriter wrote...
Bah. How can I trust them with a protagonist again. Investing in a custom PC isn't safe anymore. Gonna have to constantly worry they'll kill him/her off without even understanding why that's upsetting.

THIS!
THIS!
THIS!
THIS!
THIS!
THIS!
THIS!
THIS!
THIS!
THIS!

[Wayning_Star]

iakus wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
Bah. How can I trust them with a protagonist again. Investing in a custom PC isn't safe anymore. Gonna have to constantly worry they'll kill him/her off without even understanding why that's upsetting.

THIS!
THIS!
THIS!
THIS!
THIS!
THIS!
THIS!
THIS!
THIS!
THIS!

NW was being sarcastic...

[Fnork]

crimzontearz wrote...

a little after he says

"I am happy with how the extended cut turned out. I think we did a good job of trying to wrap those choices up and reflect that back to the player in a fair and responsible way. it's a good learning experience for us in the future, in that you can underestimate how much people love their characters. So we'll be watching that much more carefully next time"

I like this part. I hope they do well. Still no chance in hell that I'll even think of buying ME4 before I've seen a demo, reviews, youtube and possibly a discount.

[3DandBeyond]

Wayning_Star wrote...


I have to wonder why do you rail so against the machine?

Ha ha ha.  If you knew me you'd know that I was always the last to complain about anything.  And, I've done my share of sticking up for businesses when I feel complaints are unwarranted.  But, I've never seen the level of denial that seems to exist within the game industry in general, and BW specifically.  It's why games really fight to be taken as serious entertainment and why Spike TV hosts an award show for them.  I had this debate with the owner of a gaming website once, where I was the one stating that many now consider games to be a part of "sports" and there are championships and so on that are bringing them into that forum.  He said that he would never view games that way, that they were just kind of candy entertainment and not serious competitive venues. 

But, what I'm saying is that this is the problem-devs usually want games taken as serious, decent entertainment-because big money follows that.  There are even new categories for games-art games-that are evolving.  Every time a game is released that is not what is hyped, it means that the powers that be out there in the real world, do not take games seriously.  They are toys, whereas movies can be highbrow and intellectual.  Video games are like Yahtzee on steroids or just not something worthy of thought.  They don't have great stories or great endings and a lot of times they are just mindless, repetitive action for no real reason.  No one ever asks you after you've seen a movie "now what?" but when I get asked if I've beaten a game and say I finished my last Prestige challenge, I've gotten asked that question.  It's a big issue in that games are Angry Birds and Journey or Mass Effect or Dark Souls or Skyrim or Katamari as well as CoD, Gears of War, God of War, Halo, and so on.  But, by and large, games have tended to be kiddie things or things that adolescent males did when they couldn't get dates.  That's the stereotype.  How wonderful it is that games can go beyond all that and engage people from all groups. 

But, they still have to fight to be taken seriously and the only thing that will do that is if they grow up and offer great stories with interactivity, that do not go off track.  Or, you get to hear people say that you should expect game endings to suck, because they're just games.

The model for this is the graphic novel and how they went from mostly the same type of fan (or even younger fans) to the more adult versions that exist today.  Even I have some graphic novels and I've seen how they've changed and grown up over these many years.  Games are the same.  Stories need to be good and endings matter.

[Bizantura]

Games are big bucks now, therefore depressing (story and) ending is the hollywodian style that is prevalent. Watch any SF on tv = invasion on earth by whatever and depressed broken survivors struggeling. The days of startrek and boldly going theme.... are far behind us.

So in a sense we are lucky that the theme of ME universe is 99% hero style and just the ending that is out of sinc and depressing. Of course Bioware knew this but that the backlash was going to be this big no I don't think they where expecting that.

They underestimated that a lot of players play games as an escape from daily live not to relive the same dread of daily live.

Wandering how long we will get the negative depressing stuff shoved thru are throats because it is going on in filmmaking for a few years now?

[CronoDragoon]

3DandBeyond wrote...
*snip*

In summary, the EC didn't fix what was wrong with the endings to you, and that means they aren't listening or didn't learn from their mistakes. Since you acknowledge this is just your opinion, I'll just say that I don't agree. I think the EC showed they were listening, considering a lot of the changes/additions they made were straight out of threads on this very board.

One point I will make though: OF COURSE they are going to say they all played through it and thought it was fine. They aren't going to say the office was split over this. And even if it wasn't split explicitly, it would be a big risk for someone to come out and call the ending like it was considering who came up with it.

Case in point, I tend to believe that "fake" Weekes post detailing the ending process, mostly because of how diplomatic it was concerning Mac and Casey's role (it didn't bash them, said Mac's issue sometimes is that he's too smart, etc). This rings true to me because often when you are writing without outside input you tend to complicate your story to the point of convolution because you are so excited in the ideas of which you are thinking. In any case, I doubt that everyone at BW played through the ending and didn't expect backlash.

Still, I think Flynn is right that the main issue is still the characters and how BW underestimated how important they were to the fanbase. I think the OEs prioritized plot and themes over characters and that this was a huge mistake. Look at Destroy: the main issues people still have with it are: 1. No reunion scene 2. Geth/EDI destruction.

[Iakus]

Wayning_Star wrote...

iakus wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
Bah. How can I trust them with a protagonist again. Investing in a custom PC isn't safe anymore. Gonna have to constantly worry they'll kill him/her off without even understanding why that's upsetting.

THIS!
THIS!
THIS!
THIS!
THIS!
THIS!
THIS!
THIS!
THIS!
THIS!

NW was being sarcastic...

I wasn't

[Nightwriter]

Nor I.

[3DandBeyond]

Wayning_Star wrote...


I'd say that is pretty much an impossible task, to prequel the fans of mass effect. Understanding all those fans is, well.. I don't know.. what IS understanding all those fans?

The thing is they did understand how fans felt and ignored it.  They even said they knew fans would be unhappy to say goodbye to Shepard-but never actually allowed us to do that in a decent fashion. 

Also, there was no need to understand fans-what they lacked was an understanding of their own story.  They lacked the ability or willingness to write an ending in keeping with that story.

I don't expect them to understand us at all.  I do expect them to understand what people are saying when they go to great lengths to really explain what they think.  Jessica Merizan said in one podcast that it doesn't help them at all if someone just says "I like the ending" or "I hate the ending" and that they need and like it when people really explain their reasons.  Well, they may like that, but they sure do ignore it.  In fact, they did exactly what a fan said he hoped they would not do in ME3 and he was called "prophetic" by many.

It's like someone can say they don't like the color of the stripe on the Normandy, so BW just gets rid of the Normandy.  They want explanation, but then don't understand or "get it".  And the problem seems to be that they have relied on the wrong people that work for them to provide that feedback-the same person who can't seem to remember anything she's said before.  Yes, that sounds nasty but it is true IMO.  She has said a lot of things and then says she never said them, even when it's on twitter or reddit.  It's really hard to be a real fan if the face of all of this stuff.  And it's often best to start off any wishes you have for any game with the words "this is what I hope they don't do" followed by what you want them to do-it's the only way you'll get it.

[Iakus]

Nightwriter wrote...

Nor I.

::fistbump::

[CronoDragoon]

Bizantura wrote...

Games are big bucks now, therefore depressing (story and) ending is the hollywodian style that is prevalent. Watch any SF on tv = invasion on earth by whatever and depressed broken survivors struggeling. The days of startrek and boldly going theme.... are far behind us.

So in a sense we are lucky that the theme of ME universe is 99% hero style and just the ending that is out of sinc and depressing. Of course Bioware knew this but that the backlash was going to be this big no I don't think they where expecting that.

They underestimated that a lot of players play games as an escape from daily live not to relive the same dread of daily live.

Wandering how long we will get the negative depressing stuff shoved thru are throats because it is going on in filmmaking for a few years now?

I agree with this. I never looked to Mass Effect for deep artistic meaning. I loved the characters and loved feeling like an unstoppable badass. Those who think all entertainment must duplicate as great art may disagree, but I think it's healthy to enjoy a wide range of emotion/tone/art vs. escapism.

[nevar00]

Greylycantrope wrote...

nevar00 wrote...
Honestly I'd rather he just die than the alternative nonsense.  So he's able to survive a MASSIVE exploding space station, fall through the atmosphere back to earth, and then have pieces of said space station land on him. 

I know the ending (counting the entire game more or less, but especially the end itself) took the set rules and guidelines the rest of the series had set and threw them out the window but come on, now need to ****** in the wound.

Actually to Shep doesn't fall back down to Earth, still on what's left of the Citadel. You have gravity and air because the kintetic barriers popped up to seal of the holes. Similar to what you saw on the Normandy in ME2 when the occulus broke into the cardgo hold. So s/he doesn't have to worry so much about re-entry just everything else we've listed, odds of survival still extremely low.

Are you sure?  I haven't watched the endings for a while but if I recall correctly the Citadel blows up in all but the control ending (for some reason) and assumedly falls back to Earth.  I could easily be wrong but I thought you could see the remains of buildings in the background during the breathe scene, though I'm not able to go look for the video of it from where I am.

[Mimitochan]

Unconstructive post >>>

That is all.