362 réponses à ce sujet

[goose2989]

Ryoten wrote...

I could tell you that without reading Game Informers interview. Get ready to hear how the next DLC will be bigger and better than LotSB and Omega combined. -.-

With more explosions

[3DandBeyond]

CronoDragoon wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
*snip*

In summary, the EC didn't fix what was wrong with the endings to you, and that means they aren't listening or didn't learn from their mistakes. Since you acknowledge this is just your opinion, I'll just say that I don't agree. I think the EC showed they were listening, considering a lot of the changes/additions they made were straight out of threads on this very board.
snipped

They actually did the opposite or some twisted version of all that was discussed in their own "we are listening" thread.  They kept things in the EC and fleshed them out, when people said (the majority of posts said) "I hope they remove this" or "I hope this is not what they mean by this, but I'm sure it is."  Time and again they did this in the EC.  The retconning of the mass relays is done in such a way as to be laughable, but well at least now no one starves to death.  This just shows they did not understand what ticked people off about the whole thing.  Choices, lack of variety, the kid, no closure for the torso-I read over 900 pages of this stuff that was addressed to Bioware. 

And yes, they didn't fix what was wrong with the endings in my opinion-nor did they for a whole lot of other people, who are still stuck with an unfinished, nonsensical ending with the stupidest character spouting the most awful BS I've ever heard in over 30 years of gaming.  I speak for me, but I know of many others that feel the same and many have abandoned this game, got rid of it, this series, and this company because they could never see what they did wrong.

They added in the Normandy in front of Harbinger to explain something they never even considered, but it's laughable.  And yet, there's no explanation for the other teammates at the FoB--how they got to the FoB and then back to the Normandy.  They tried to explain Joker running away, but it still is far from sensible.  In fact, their additions (not just clarity if you have to add in what you never even knew you left out) often make the EC more ridiculous.

And the kid-he talks more, but explains less.  He'd make a good politician because with the EC he can use even more words to say not very much that makes sense.  Yes, that's really fixed.  And now you can hit a controller button once in awhile so there's some artifice of actually playing a game, rather than watching an extended cutscene.  Goody.  The choices (which most never wanted to be choices) are still there in all their glory, with some great VAs and juvenile slide shows, that make it all seem ridiculous.  The results are essentially the same for all endings.  The addition of refuse/reject is a joke-great speech (reminds me of one in Skyrim and one in B5), but not much else.

Yeah, they didn't do what I wanted because all I care about is what I wanted.  If I came here and saw I was the only one that felt like this, I'd have shut up and left long ago and figured it was just me-still wouldn't have liked it, but that would have been that.  Since I know others feel this way-I think it's a BW problem.  It means they overpromised and then didn't even deliver enough to make people forget what they'd promised.  Simple things really mean a lot.  MEHEM proves that, but one fan did something because that one fan saw what people wanted, and BW couldn't or wouldn't.  Goody.

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...


I have to wonder why do you rail so against the machine?

Ha ha ha.  If you knew me you'd know that I was always the last to complain about anything.  And, I've done my share of sticking up for businesses when I feel complaints are unwarranted.  But, I've never seen the level of denial that seems to exist within the game industry in general, and BW specifically.  It's why games really fight to be taken as serious entertainment and why Spike TV hosts an award show for them.  I had this debate with the owner of a gaming website once, where I was the one stating that many now consider games to be a part of "sports" and there are championships and so on that are bringing them into that forum.  He said that he would never view games that way, that they were just kind of candy entertainment and not serious competitive venues. 

But, what I'm saying is that this is the problem-devs usually want games taken as serious, decent entertainment-because big money follows that.  There are even new categories for games-art games-that are evolving.  Every time a game is released that is not what is hyped, it means that the powers that be out there in the real world, do not take games seriously.  They are toys, whereas movies can be highbrow and intellectual.  Video games are like Yahtzee on steroids or just not something worthy of thought.  They don't have great stories or great endings and a lot of times they are just mindless, repetitive action for no real reason.  No one ever asks you after you've seen a movie "now what?" but when I get asked if I've beaten a game and say I finished my last Prestige challenge, I've gotten asked that question.  It's a big issue in that games are Angry Birds and Journey or Mass Effect or Dark Souls or Skyrim or Katamari as well as CoD, Gears of War, God of War, Halo, and so on.  But, by and large, games have tended to be kiddie things or things that adolescent males did when they couldn't get dates.  That's the stereotype.  How wonderful it is that games can go beyond all that and engage people from all groups. 

But, they still have to fight to be taken seriously and the only thing that will do that is if they grow up and offer great stories with interactivity, that do not go off track.  Or, you get to hear people say that you should expect game endings to suck, because they're just games.

The model for this is the graphic novel and how they went from mostly the same type of fan (or even younger fans) to the more adult versions that exist today.  Even I have some graphic novels and I've seen how they've changed and grown up over these many years.  Games are the same.  Stories need to be good and endings matter.

I've looked at modern video games as interactive movies, well at least RPG's, but then even action sports games and war winnings games are becoming more interactive story telling, like movies with user inputs. So they're morphing from toy games such as angry birdies and jewel quest type leasure games. (I'm dreading the mass effect of smartphone minie games..ugh!) It would seem, though, that the more 'intellectually' challenging the game/story may be, the more the users get involved and that means inoperability.

All in all it also seems to me that the more successful the game is the better the sequels get, that is graphically and the Deve input increases in their construction. All video games improve with the success of all other video games, just as in movies become more intense as their production/investment. There are examples of this not working so well, as gobs of money dumped on a movie, that just doesn't 'click' with the intended audience tho, eventhough I don't always agree with the pundits and end up likeing the movie everyone else just don't get/like/enjoy.

Now with 'good endings' is a controversical/ argumentitive statement, as there is no real way to tell how an ending is gonna be recieved, or  even what a "good ending" even is? So with a video game like ME(of course there are few to none of the type out there, really. kudo's for all concerned the ending is only important if you can derive one. Everyone 'seems' to derive an ending, but most don't agree as to exactly what that is... So, everyone 'complains' that there is no ending. ONLY because BiwarEa will NOT commit to it. Or to put it another way, force the issue and command the MEU, thats a job for the fans..

I'm under the impression that there is only one way the story is resolved, but that's just me..lol

[Ihatebadgames]

Bizantura wrote...

Games are big bucks now, therefore depressing (story and) ending is the hollywodian style that is prevalent. Watch any SF on tv = invasion on earth by whatever and depressed broken survivors struggeling. The days of startrek and boldly going theme.... are far behind us.

So in a sense we are lucky that the theme of ME universe is 99% hero style and just the ending that is out of sinc and depressing. Of course Bioware knew this but that the backlash was going to be this big no I don't think they where expecting that.

They underestimated that a lot of players play games as an escape from daily live not to relive the same dread of daily live.

Wandering how long we will get the negative depressing stuff shoved thru are throats because it is going on in filmmaking for a few years now?

Very good points.I hate the movies where there is no clear hero to cheer for.Hated Unforgiven, loved Silverado.I rent movies or buy real old ones.Guess I'll have to start doing that with games.
Survivors type shows or movies could be uplefting if  they end more shows of the series or the finial one on a very up note.

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
*snip*

In summary, the EC didn't fix what was wrong with the endings to you, and that means they aren't listening or didn't learn from their mistakes. Since you acknowledge this is just your opinion, I'll just say that I don't agree. I think the EC showed they were listening, considering a lot of the changes/additions they made were straight out of threads on this very board.
snipped

They actually did the opposite or some twisted version of all that was discussed in their own "we are listening" thread.  They kept things in the EC and fleshed them out, when people said (the majority of posts said) "I hope they remove this" or "I hope this is not what they mean by this, but I'm sure it is."  Time and again they did this in the EC.  The retconning of the mass relays is done in such a way as to be laughable, but well at least now no one starves to death.  This just shows they did not understand what ticked people off about the whole thing.  Choices, lack of variety, the kid, no closure for the torso-I read over 900 pages of this stuff that was addressed to Bioware. 

And yes, they didn't fix what was wrong with the endings in my opinion-nor did they for a whole lot of other people, who are still stuck with an unfinished, nonsensical ending with the stupidest character spouting the most awful BS I've ever heard in over 30 years of gaming.  I speak for me, but I know of many others that feel the same and many have abandoned this game, got rid of it, this series, and this company because they could never see what they did wrong.

They added in the Normandy in front of Harbinger to explain something they never even considered, but it's laughable.  And yet, there's no explanation for the other teammates at the FoB--how they got to the FoB and then back to the Normandy.  They tried to explain Joker running away, but it still is far from sensible.  In fact, their additions (not just clarity if you have to add in what you never even knew you left out) often make the EC more ridiculous.

And the kid-he talks more, but explains less.  He'd make a good politician because with the EC he can use even more words to say not very much that makes sense.  Yes, that's really fixed.  And now you can hit a controller button once in awhile so there's some artifice of actually playing a game, rather than watching an extended cutscene.  Goody.  The choices (which most never wanted to be choices) are still there in all their glory, with some great VAs and juvenile slide shows, that make it all seem ridiculous.  The results are essentially the same for all endings.  The addition of refuse/reject is a joke-great speech (reminds me of one in Skyrim and one in B5), but not much else.

Yeah, they didn't do what I wanted because all I care about is what I wanted.  If I came here and saw I was the only one that felt like this, I'd have shut up and left long ago and figured it was just me-still wouldn't have liked it, but that would have been that.  Since I know others feel this way-I think it's a BW problem.  It means they overpromised and then didn't even deliver enough to make people forget what they'd promised.  Simple things really mean a lot.  MEHEM proves that, but one fan did something because that one fan saw what people wanted, and BW couldn't or wouldn't.  Goody.

It's funny to watch as other users wish to 'control' the extent of an ending to a story.. IT comes to mind...but then leaves as soon as destroy is implicated as the said 'canon'.

(must be why they put that 'tilt' sensor in pinball games,eh?)

[CrazyRah]

Nightwriter wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

"I am happy with how the extended cut turned out. I think we did a good job of trying to wrap those choices up and reflect that back to the player in a fair and responsible way. it's a good learning experience for us in the future, in that you can underestimate how much people love their characters. So we'll be watching that much more carefully next time"

Bah. How can I trust them with a protagonist again. Investing in a custom PC isn't safe anymore. Gonna have to constantly worry they'll kill him/her off without even understanding why that's upsetting.

Couldn't have said it better myself, going to have a hard time trusting them with a PC again.

[Wayning_Star]

Ihatebadgames wrote...

Bizantura wrote...

Games are big bucks now, therefore depressing (story and) ending is the hollywodian style that is prevalent. Watch any SF on tv = invasion on earth by whatever and depressed broken survivors struggeling. The days of startrek and boldly going theme.... are far behind us.

So in a sense we are lucky that the theme of ME universe is 99% hero style and just the ending that is out of sinc and depressing. Of course Bioware knew this but that the backlash was going to be this big no I don't think they where expecting that.

They underestimated that a lot of players play games as an escape from daily live not to relive the same dread of daily live.

Wandering how long we will get the negative depressing stuff shoved thru are throats because it is going on in filmmaking for a few years now?

Very good points.I hate the movies where there is no clear hero to cheer for.Hated Unforgiven, loved Silverado.I rent movies or buy real old ones.Guess I'll have to start doing that with games.
Survivors type shows or movies could be uplefting if  they end more shows of the series or the finial one on a very up note.

but to interject, there is a sense of the total unknowns of deep space and what just might be in store for lucky campers out there prospecting'n such...Yikes!!

film at 11!! :^]

edit: I've tried to play the old ones, now am spoiled by the eye candy/graphics of the newer ones..they'll get even better as time and money wears on'em.. (fans?!?, yeah, well them too

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 13 décembre 2012 - 06:00 .

[3DandBeyond]

Wayning_Star wrote...

I've looked at modern video games as interactive movies, well at least RPG's, but then even action sports games and war winnings games are becoming more interactive story telling, like movies with user inputs. So they're morphing from toy games such as angry birdies and jewel quest type leasure games. (I'm dreading the mass effect of smartphone minie games..ugh!) It would seem, though, that the more 'intellectually' challenging the game/story may be, the more the users get involved and that means inoperability.

All in all it also seems to me that the more successful the game is the better the sequels get, that is graphically and the Deve input increases in their construction. All video games improve with the success of all other video games, just as in movies become more intense as their production/investment. There are examples of this not working so well, as gobs of money dumped on a movie, that just doesn't 'click' with the intended audience tho, eventhough I don't always agree with the pundits and end up likeing the movie everyone else just don't get/like/enjoy.

Now with 'good endings' is a controversical/ argumentitive statement, as there is no real way to tell how an ending is gonna be recieved, or  even what a "good ending" even is? So with a video game like ME(of course there are few to none of the type out there, really. kudo's for all concerned the ending is only important if you can derive one. Everyone 'seems' to derive an ending, but most don't agree as to exactly what that is... So, everyone 'complains' that there is no ending. ONLY because BiwarEa will NOT commit to it. Or to put it another way, force the issue and command the MEU, thats a job for the fans..

I'm under the impression that there is only one way the story is resolved, but that's just me..lol

The issue is that of interactivity.  It's not possible to truly compare videogames to movies for that reason-movies are of necessity, very linear and can only end one way, unless you get the director's cut or get one with alternate endings, such as The Butterfly Effect (first one that came to mind).

I look at video games (well ME as the game in question) as having game styles more like competitive sports.  Like say a hockey game.  The outcome is unknown, but you know what you want to happen.  Both sides, including the officials, sportscasters, commentators, and players know what their fans want to happen.  And there's more than one ending that can be achieved-what matters is having the time to get the winning goal, doing the things that will lead to that (more than one way to get there), and doing what you think is best, even if it does fail.  In the next game, you will try again if you do fail this time.  And it's no secret that you want to win and that you don't want to end up "benched" in doing that.  You're captain of the team and you want to score the winning goal, but you know how important your teammates are and you could never do it alone-wouldn't want to have to try.

Hockey is not linear, though certainly there are linear aspects to it-you have a stick and a puck and you operate within rules and you go back and forth down the ice, so choices are limited, but decisions are varied.  What matters ultimately is getting the puck in the goal cleanly.  Linear as all get out.

I think ME is like that-you know what you have to do, you just don't know how it will get done and what you will be called upon to do to get it done.  Such a game is only like a movie or a book, in that there's a story to go along with it, but you are still trying to get the puck in the goal and win.  The devs knew this, and I know they love their hockey (go Wings if the NHL ever comes back).  The devs also know that no one likes to see their star player benched or hurt at the end of a game in the third period when it's a tie and the other team has a power play.  They also would never like to see a hockey game end with the captain of their team being given 3 choices as to how their opponent can win the game.  Sorry for all the hockey metaphors, but I miss the NHL like crazy.

[CronoDragoon]

[quote]3DandBeyond wrote...

They actually did the opposite or some twisted version of all that was discussed in their own "we are listening" thread.[/quote]

I'm curious what changes they made that are the opposite of what the complainers wanted. 

[quote]They kept things in the EC and fleshed them out, when people said (the majority of posts said) "I hope they remove this" or "I hope this is not what they mean by this, but I'm sure it is."  Time and again they did this in the EC.[/quote]

A complete Earth rewrite was not feasible. They had to make changes that meshed with the majority of the scenes currently in the game. While I would have been excited about a complete Earth rewrite, that is a different argument from whether or not they were listening or realized their mistakes.

[quote]The retconning of the mass relays is done in such a way as to be laughable, but well at least now no one starves to death.  This just shows they did not understand what ticked people off about the whole thing.[/quote]

On the contrary. The destruction of the Mass Relays is by far the worst thing that happens in the endings. The amount of people that would die because of it is laughable compared to anything else that happens.

[quote]Choices[/quote]
I don't consider the idea that previous choices didn't factor into Earth heavily to be a valid complaint. You have still changed the ME world in drastic ways through your choices in the series.

[quote]llack of variety[/quote]

The EC added variety. Picking Control now leads to a very different ending than picking Synthesis. Complaints about the similarity of the Crucible beam are superficial at this point.

[quote] the kid[/quote]
Taking out the kid wasn't feasible for the EC. But they did bother to rework the exposition convo with him and even added dialogue wheels with investigation and Shepard interjections. Not exactly what you were looking for, but positive to be sure.
[quote] no closure for the torso[/quote]
I also read threads where people said they thought Shepard sacrifice was appropriate. BW kept the breath scene ambiguous for this reason.

[quote]And yes, they didn't fix what was wrong with the endings in my opinion-nor did they for a whole lot of other people, who are still stuck with an unfinished, nonsensical ending with the stupidest character spouting the most awful BS I've ever heard in over 30 years of gaming.  I speak for me, but I know of many others that feel the same and many have abandoned this game, got rid of it, this series, and this company because they could never see what they did wrong.[/quote]

I think they know what they did wrong. That they didn't act to completely change all the complaints about the ending seems to be your problem.

[quote]They added in the Normandy in front of Harbinger to explain something they never even considered, but it's laughable.  And yet, there's no explanation for the other teammates at the FoB--how they got to the FoB and then back to the Normandy.[/quote]

Nitpicking. How many threads were there when the demo came out and none of the Reapers shot down the Normandy as it was leaving Earth?

[quote]They tried to explain Joker running away, but it still is far from sensible.  In fact, their additions (not just clarity if you have to add in what you never even knew you left out) often make the EC more ridiculous.[/quote]

It is sensible. You choose to disregard the reasons why it is sensible, which isn't my problem.

[quote]And the kid-he talks more, but explains less.[/quote]

No, the dialogue is much clearer post-EC. Pre-EC it's nothing but vague philosophy. Post-EC you actually get some background on the Catalyst: for example that he was created to faciliate synthetic/organic relations and that he turned his creators into the first Reaper. This is important information to understanding the Catalyst and the Reaper cycle.

[quote] And now you can hit a controller button once in awhile so there's some artifice of actually playing a game, rather than watching an extended cutscene.  Goody.  The choices (which most never wanted to be choices) are still there in all their glory, with some great VAs and juvenile slide shows, that make it all seem ridiculous.  The results are essentially the same for all endings.  The addition of refuse/reject is a joke-great speech (reminds me of one in Skyrim and one in B5), but not much else.[/quote]
I tend to agree with people who say the problem with the choices is their execution and not their concept. Destroy/Control/Synthesis are very interesting conceptual endings to the ME series.

[quote]Yeah, they didn't do what I wanted because all I care about is what I wanted.  If I came here and saw I was the only one that felt like this, I'd have shut up and left long ago and figured it was just me-still wouldn't have liked it, but that would have been that.  Since I know others feel this way-I think it's a BW problem.  It means they overpromised and then didn't even deliver enough to make people forget what they'd promised.  Simple things really mean a lot.  MEHEM proves that, but one fan did something because that one fan saw what people wanted, and BW couldn't or wouldn't.  Goody.
[/quote]

MEHEM proves that fans can splice together a crappy ending that some people love because it's happy. I would have liked a happy ending, but not the way MEHEM did it.

Clearly BioWare overpromised. But they've even made changes to their marketing strategies to avoid future incidents like "no ABC ending."

[3DandBeyond]

Posting this link again-it's "fun" to read the comments regarding it and what people were speculating would happen in ME3. Funny how accurate some were.

http://www.eurogamer...me-people-angry

[Dr_Extrem]

Nightwriter wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

"I am happy with how the extended cut turned out. I think we did a good job of trying to wrap those choices up and reflect that back to the player in a fair and responsible way. it's a good learning experience for us in the future, in that you can underestimate how much people love their characters. So we'll be watching that much more carefully next time"

Bah. How can I trust them with a protagonist again. Investing in a custom PC isn't safe anymore. Gonna have to constantly worry they'll kill him/her off without even understanding why that's upsetting.

"this one speaks the truth."


the trust is lost - plain and simple.

if i want my character to sacrifice him/herself, its ok - as long, as i have an alternative. in mass effecr 3, i can choose between 3 different ways to sacrifice my avatar. the circumstance, that shepard might survive, is unimportant. even if sacrifice is the one and only chance, it should be heroic - and not with sheps famous last words "i dont know".

shep did not go down without a proper fight.


i am a hopless romantic and old fashioned. i want my avatar to go down in a blaze or ride into the sunset.

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

I've looked at modern video games as interactive movies, well at least RPG's, but then even action sports games and war winnings games are becoming more interactive story telling, like movies with user inputs. So they're morphing from toy games such as angry birdies and jewel quest type leasure games. (I'm dreading the mass effect of smartphone minie games..ugh!) It would seem, though, that the more 'intellectually' challenging the game/story may be, the more the users get involved and that means inoperability.

All in all it also seems to me that the more successful the game is the better the sequels get, that is graphically and the Deve input increases in their construction. All video games improve with the success of all other video games, just as in movies become more intense as their production/investment. There are examples of this not working so well, as gobs of money dumped on a movie, that just doesn't 'click' with the intended audience tho, eventhough I don't always agree with the pundits and end up likeing the movie everyone else just don't get/like/enjoy.

Now with 'good endings' is a controversical/ argumentitive statement, as there is no real way to tell how an ending is gonna be recieved, or  even what a "good ending" even is? So with a video game like ME(of course there are few to none of the type out there, really. kudo's for all concerned the ending is only important if you can derive one. Everyone 'seems' to derive an ending, but most don't agree as to exactly what that is... So, everyone 'complains' that there is no ending. ONLY because BiwarEa will NOT commit to it. Or to put it another way, force the issue and command the MEU, thats a job for the fans..

I'm under the impression that there is only one way the story is resolved, but that's just me..lol

The issue is that of interactivity.  It's not possible to truly compare videogames to movies for that reason-movies are of necessity, very linear and can only end one way, unless you get the director's cut or get one with alternate endings, such as The Butterfly Effect (first one that came to mind).

I look at video games (well ME as the game in question) as having game styles more like competitive sports.  Like say a hockey game.  The outcome is unknown, but you know what you want to happen.  Both sides, including the officials, sportscasters, commentators, and players know what their fans want to happen.  And there's more than one ending that can be achieved-what matters is having the time to get the winning goal, doing the things that will lead to that (more than one way to get there), and doing what you think is best, even if it does fail.  In the next game, you will try again if you do fail this time.  And it's no secret that you want to win and that you don't want to end up "benched" in doing that.  You're captain of the team and you want to score the winning goal, but you know how important your teammates are and you could never do it alone-wouldn't want to have to try.

Hockey is not linear, though certainly there are linear aspects to it-you have a stick and a puck and you operate within rules and you go back and forth down the ice, so choices are limited, but decisions are varied.  What matters ultimately is getting the puck in the goal cleanly.  Linear as all get out.

I think ME is like that-you know what you have to do, you just don't know how it will get done and what you will be called upon to do to get it done.  Such a game is only like a movie or a book, in that there's a story to go along with it, but you are still trying to get the puck in the goal and win.  The devs knew this, and I know they love their hockey (go Wings if the NHL ever comes back).  The devs also know that no one likes to see their star player benched or hurt at the end of a game in the third period when it's a tie and the other team has a power play.  They also would never like to see a hockey game end with the captain of their team being given 3 choices as to how their opponent can win the game.  Sorry for all the hockey metaphors, but I miss the NHL like crazy.

That's the problem right there, everyone wants to get that pesky "puck" but the catalyst just isn't playing by 'fan' rules. Thats the catch in the MEU, Shep is choiceless. There is NO puck.

This makes the story interesting, in the face of such a large quantum of varibles, known and yet unknown. A friggen giant mystery. I think this is where the fan frustration is, they want a canon, died in the wool, not taken from the whole cloth...

But the future is the greatest unknown as is deep space and alien realities, just like "being alive" might be for anyone, of synthetic or organic sentience. All this driven by 'known space' makes it hard to contemplate, much less canonize.

 This is what,imho, makes for ME fan frustration, and possibly for BiowarEa as well. So, they 'banter'.

[3DandBeyond]

CronoDragoon wrote...

MEHEM proves that fans can splice together a crappy ending that some people love because it's happy. I would have liked a happy ending, but not the way MEHEM did it.

Clearly BioWare overpromised. But they've even made changes to their marketing strategies to avoid future incidents like "no ABC ending."

Well for pete's sake it's fan made and not a professional product-he worked with what he had and created some things for it and I think it's very good.  Would I have rather something more than that, of course.  I've said so often enough, but MEHEM shows what could be done (not easily) in all its simplicity to give many players more of the feeling they wanted than what Bioware created.  I'd like much more than that, of course.  I want what I've always wanted-sense and endings that go with the story.  I wanted an ME3 that as a whole made sense and at least made the crucible less BS-tastic, something that no one has any idea why they want to build.  Yes, they think they do-they think it's a big weapon, only.  This again affirms Destroy as the (ugh) choice that everyone wanted.

I wanted the damn game and its endings to be well written (no ignorant juvenile fetch quests), but they created what they did and outside of becoming instantly rich and buying the company, I have no way of asking them to remake the mess that they created.  And had the ending delivered, the rest would have been minor grumblings in comparison.  I wanted an end that made sense in the context of these 3 games, that respected decisions that had been made before or just plain acknowledged they'd been made.  The idea of choices at the end is just plain stupid-I'll never see that as making any sense.  The kid's logic is not logic at all and I will never see that as making any sense.  His creation is moronic, given what Leviathan says and it creates a new contradiction within what the kid says.  Therefore, MEHEM just gets rid of all that and it's not perfect, but it's better.

[clarkusdarkus]

They really do shoot themselves in the foot before a dlc comes out, man just lie like usuall say the dlc is finding shepard, we'll get a reuinion and hub worlds and our ME3 copy should be saved for ME4......that way you get the most sales possible and hate afterwards but money already in your pocket.......it worked for ME3.

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

MEHEM proves that fans can splice together a crappy ending that some people love because it's happy. I would have liked a happy ending, but not the way MEHEM did it.

Clearly BioWare overpromised. But they've even made changes to their marketing strategies to avoid future incidents like "no ABC ending."

Well for pete's sake it's fan made and not a professional product-he worked with what he had and created some things for it and I think it's very good.  Would I have rather something more than that, of course.  I've said so often enough, but MEHEM shows what could be done (not easily) in all its simplicity to give many players more of the feeling they wanted than what Bioware created.  I'd like much more than that, of course.  I want what I've always wanted-sense and endings that go with the story.  I wanted an ME3 that as a whole made sense and at least made the crucible less BS-tastic, something that no one has any idea why they want to build.  Yes, they think they do-they think it's a big weapon, only.  This again affirms Destroy as the (ugh) choice that everyone wanted.

I wanted the damn game and its endings to be well written (no ignorant juvenile fetch quests), but they created what they did and outside of becoming instantly rich and buying the company, I have no way of asking them to remake the mess that they created.  And had the ending delivered, the rest would have been minor grumblings in comparison.  I wanted an end that made sense in the context of these 3 games, that respected decisions that had been made before or just plain acknowledged they'd been made.  The idea of choices at the end is just plain stupid-I'll never see that as making any sense.  The kid's logic is not logic at all and I will never see that as making any sense.  His creation is moronic, given what Leviathan says and it creates a new contradiction within what the kid says.  Therefore, MEHEM just gets rid of all that and it's not perfect, but it's better.

boooooo MEHEM.. it's just another theory, not a canon. We cannot metagame a 'puck' we like.. reality don't work that way, even in fantastics MEU's..

[devSin]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

One of the only two posts by Jessica Merizan I've ever seen on the story forum in the 6 months I've been reading it was a denial she ever meant to say that. She says that is her 'personal canon' or something to that effect.

That's not what she said.

She denied ever saying that synthesis was canon (she was responding to the thread title, not the actual statements that were attributed to her). And it won't be canon (that Shepard picked the synthesis ending)—it'll just happen anyway, regardless of what your Shepard chose.

Nightwriter wrote...

I originally thought it was perfectly clear that the breath scene is meant to indicate life. Then what's-his-face made that comment about death gasps and such. Then other people told me he was just making a spiteful joke. Then I asked for proof that it was a joke. Then they fell silent.

It's not a joke. It's the official answer.

It is whatever you want it to be because it doesn't actually mean anything and they have no explanation for it.

Nightwriter wrote...

Bah. How can I trust them with a protagonist again. Investing in a custom PC isn't safe anymore. Gonna have to constantly worry they'll kill him/her off without even understanding why that's upsetting.

The problem isn't so much the death as it is the fact that they just tossed the character out with the trash.

They didn't know what to do for an ending, and they came up with this terribly written mess, and then they couldn't even do a decent job of dressing it up to at least look like some sort of conclusion worth the investment the player had made in the character and the story—a horrible ending and poor execution is not acceptable for the time I spent with the game, for the interest I had in the story, and for the concern I held for the characters.

That's why I'm done with Mass Effect, and that's why I'll likely be unable to support any future game from this team (definitely if it shares the same lead writer). Some people simply want the trilogy to be buried and forgotten, but for me, with the way Shepard's story has been massacred, I simply can't trust them with any future stories. I see no need to invest my attention into something that is going to be so carelessly handled, especially if it is then just tossed aside as a mistake not worth being fixed.

Modifié par devSin, 13 décembre 2012 - 06:37 .

[3DandBeyond]

Wayning_Star wrote...


That's the problem right there, everyone wants to get that pesky "puck" but the catalyst just isn't playing by 'fan' rules. Thats the catch in the MEU, Shep is choiceless. There is NO puck.

This makes the story interesting, in the face of such a large quantum of varibles, known and yet unknown. A friggen giant mystery. I think this is where the fan frustration is, they want a canon, died in the wool, not taken from the whole cloth...

But the future is the greatest unknown as is deep space and alien realities, just like "being alive" might be for anyone, of synthetic or organic sentience. All this driven by 'known space' makes it hard to contemplate, much less canonize.

 This is what,imho, makes for ME fan frustration, and possibly for BiowarEa as well. So, they 'banter'.

Well, you hit it on the head-it's the fact that BW tried so hard to avoid canon, but created such a linear story in ME3 that was supposed to have a vast variety of endings and then they didn't know what to do.  And by variety, I'm not saying one that was as they promised, that was so unrealistic to try and create where no one ever could get the same ending twice and all that, but one that had one goal with many ways to get there and many ways to fail, and many colors of success and failure. 

Failing that, as I've said, they could merely have removed the aspect of choice and had these same things (control, synthesis, destroy) merely be the consequences of the type of Shepard you played, with some variation in each of them based on all the decisions you made and things you did.  The kid could have served as the one describing what the crucible would do and the only decision you'd have is to use it or to not use it, maybe leading to refuse in each case.

Part of may biggest problem is that it comes down to a choice and that is because of EMS and all that.  But, I could see the endings as all featuring the ability for Shepard to live in each one (if you do some things right or well), or die in all of them and that they should just have been a part of your Shepard's personality.  At least that's one way they could have done it and IMO made it better.

[crimzontearz]

8 months since release and there is still THIS much negativity about it all. Even Bungie.net and Waypoint blew over quickly after reach and halo 4 (the MP complaints died over by now there is only a few)

Does that not tell you something Bioware?

Also, I'd love to ask this to those lovely people at Bioware who keep saying they listen to the fans and want ME to be remembered on a positive note (you know like Aaryn)


When a fan (or many in this case) tells you they WANT to play the whole trilogy again but they cannot bring themselves to because of the ending and the lack of closure....do you feel some sort of sense of power in denying that closure even with a freaking FREE public statement? Is that it? Or you just enjoy knowing someone's favorite series is unplayable to then now?

Honestly...I would love an answer, not as a business but as people.

[Wayning_Star]

clarkusdarkus wrote...

They really do shoot themselves in the foot before a dlc comes out, man just lie like usuall say the dlc is finding shepard, we'll get a reuinion and hub worlds and our ME3 copy should be saved for ME4......that way you get the most sales possible and hate afterwards but money already in your pocket.......it worked for ME3.

actually, I'll end up buying more MEU games, I'm addicted to the lore.. it's only money.

[nevar00]

Mimitochan wrote...

Unconstructive post >>>

That is all.

I don't understand what there is to not "believe" from this interview.

[Dr_Extrem]

Wayning_Star wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

MEHEM proves that fans can splice together a crappy ending that some people love because it's happy. I would have liked a happy ending, but not the way MEHEM did it.

Clearly BioWare overpromised. But they've even made changes to their marketing strategies to avoid future incidents like "no ABC ending."

Well for pete's sake it's fan made and not a professional product-he worked with what he had and created some things for it and I think it's very good.  Would I have rather something more than that, of course.  I've said so often enough, but MEHEM shows what could be done (not easily) in all its simplicity to give many players more of the feeling they wanted than what Bioware created.  I'd like much more than that, of course.  I want what I've always wanted-sense and endings that go with the story.  I wanted an ME3 that as a whole made sense and at least made the crucible less BS-tastic, something that no one has any idea why they want to build.  Yes, they think they do-they think it's a big weapon, only.  This again affirms Destroy as the (ugh) choice that everyone wanted.

I wanted the damn game and its endings to be well written (no ignorant juvenile fetch quests), but they created what they did and outside of becoming instantly rich and buying the company, I have no way of asking them to remake the mess that they created.  And had the ending delivered, the rest would have been minor grumblings in comparison.  I wanted an end that made sense in the context of these 3 games, that respected decisions that had been made before or just plain acknowledged they'd been made.  The idea of choices at the end is just plain stupid-I'll never see that as making any sense.  The kid's logic is not logic at all and I will never see that as making any sense.  His creation is moronic, given what Leviathan says and it creates a new contradiction within what the kid says.  Therefore, MEHEM just gets rid of all that and it's not perfect, but it's better.

boooooo MEHEM.. it's just another theory, not a canon. We cannot metagame a 'puck' we like.. reality don't work that way, even in fantastics MEU's..

basicly its headcanon - are you telling everyone who says "my shepard got out of the rubble" that its not canon? .. me3 is not even intended to have a canon ending .. bioware even told us to make our own headcanon for the endings ... this headcanon is just visible ingame.

this mess on an ending was written with the premise, that it is the last mass effect game. now they want to make a fourth part and realise, what they have done.

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...


That's the problem right there, everyone wants to get that pesky "puck" but the catalyst just isn't playing by 'fan' rules. Thats the catch in the MEU, Shep is choiceless. There is NO puck.

This makes the story interesting, in the face of such a large quantum of varibles, known and yet unknown. A friggen giant mystery. I think this is where the fan frustration is, they want a canon, died in the wool, not taken from the whole cloth...

But the future is the greatest unknown as is deep space and alien realities, just like "being alive" might be for anyone, of synthetic or organic sentience. All this driven by 'known space' makes it hard to contemplate, much less canonize.

 This is what,imho, makes for ME fan frustration, and possibly for BiowarEa as well. So, they 'banter'.

Well, you hit it on the head-it's the fact that BW tried so hard to avoid canon, but created such a linear story in ME3 that was supposed to have a vast variety of endings and then they didn't know what to do.  And by variety, I'm not saying one that was as they promised, that was so unrealistic to try and create where no one ever could get the same ending twice and all that, but one that had one goal with many ways to get there and many ways to fail, and many colors of success and failure. 

Failing that, as I've said, they could merely have removed the aspect of choice and had these same things (control, synthesis, destroy) merely be the consequences of the type of Shepard you played, with some variation in each of them based on all the decisions you made and things you did.  The kid could have served as the one describing what the crucible would do and the only decision you'd have is to use it or to not use it, maybe leading to refuse in each case.

Part of may biggest problem is that it comes down to a choice and that is because of EMS and all that.  But, I could see the endings as all featuring the ability for Shepard to live in each one (if you do some things right or well), or die in all of them and that they should just have been a part of your Shepard's personality.  At least that's one way they could have done it and IMO made it better.

well, thats not 'exactly' what I said/meant, but we'll go with your canon in any event..lol I don't think they could 'change' it to fit some other idea of continuity tho, eventhough it looks good on paper. I think they brought Shep back just to end the trilogy "of" Shepard, but as most stories like this(sci fi) there is no ending that could match the plot of it, so the choices option was left up to the given fan to 'realize' their own version of 'victory'. I've complained of the lack of writer given canon myself, but later to realize, there cannot be one in the MEU, just because of the way the story unfolds. I only suspect that there IS one and it's not a metagamed/user intensive absolute either. Just the simplistic old "puck" as many could decide on, but not necessarily one that 'everyone' would consider "theirs". So the cycle continues,eh? lol

One weird way of looking at it is that Shep doesn't actually "die" in any of the endings, even refuse, as the 'lore' permits, that dying in the MEU isn't necessarily an absolute... and that is the handy 'puck' win all.. Yay!!

[CronoDragoon]

Sorry about the multiquotes. Kinda makes it not worth responding to. ><

[GreyLycanTrope]

nevar00 wrote...
Are you sure?  I haven't watched the endings for a while but if I recall correctly the Citadel blows up in all but the control ending (for some reason) and assumedly falls back to Earth.  I could easily be wrong but I thought you could see the remains of buildings in the background during the breathe scene, though I'm not able to go look for the video of it from where I am.

Before the EC I also assumed re-entry, but the Citadel is shown to be a bit more in tact in the EC. Shep being on the Citadel was confirmed via twitter I believe but I can't remember by who. What you see is bits the Citadel, they certainly look to have the texture of concrete to me but apperantly that's not the case.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 13 décembre 2012 - 06:44 .

[Wayning_Star]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

MEHEM proves that fans can splice together a crappy ending that some people love because it's happy. I would have liked a happy ending, but not the way MEHEM did it.

Clearly BioWare overpromised. But they've even made changes to their marketing strategies to avoid future incidents like "no ABC ending."

Well for pete's sake it's fan made and not a professional product-he worked with what he had and created some things for it and I think it's very good.  Would I have rather something more than that, of course.  I've said so often enough, but MEHEM shows what could be done (not easily) in all its simplicity to give many players more of the feeling they wanted than what Bioware created.  I'd like much more than that, of course.  I want what I've always wanted-sense and endings that go with the story.  I wanted an ME3 that as a whole made sense and at least made the crucible less BS-tastic, something that no one has any idea why they want to build.  Yes, they think they do-they think it's a big weapon, only.  This again affirms Destroy as the (ugh) choice that everyone wanted.

I wanted the damn game and its endings to be well written (no ignorant juvenile fetch quests), but they created what they did and outside of becoming instantly rich and buying the company, I have no way of asking them to remake the mess that they created.  And had the ending delivered, the rest would have been minor grumblings in comparison.  I wanted an end that made sense in the context of these 3 games, that respected decisions that had been made before or just plain acknowledged they'd been made.  The idea of choices at the end is just plain stupid-I'll never see that as making any sense.  The kid's logic is not logic at all and I will never see that as making any sense.  His creation is moronic, given what Leviathan says and it creates a new contradiction within what the kid says.  Therefore, MEHEM just gets rid of all that and it's not perfect, but it's better.

boooooo MEHEM.. it's just another theory, not a canon. We cannot metagame a 'puck' we like.. reality don't work that way, even in fantastics MEU's..

basicly its headcanon - are you telling everyone who says "my shepard got out of the rubble" that its not canon? .. me3 is not even intended to have a canon ending .. bioware even told us to make our own headcanon for the endings ... this headcanon is just visible ingame.

this mess on an ending was written with the premise, that it is the last mass effect game. now they want to make a fourth part and realise, what they have done.

We don't know what the 'fourth' generation of the MEU will be? There's no clues as to it's insperation, other than Shepard is 'no more'. So I hope they go crazy with the story again and leave us all 'wondering' wtfjusthappened?

(kind of cruel in a cool way.)