228 réponses à ce sujet

[Phate Phoenix]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Hypothetically how would the thread feel about a situation where the protagonist and the companion share their feelings for each other followed by a fade to black, with no explicit reference to sex following but among various interpretations you would be free to make as a player.

I think I would be good with this. As much as I'd like Bioware to create an option where I could play as an explicet asexual, it's just not going to happen. So giving me the illusion of it would be nice. Actual conversations are always prefered, but this could work.

[snackrat]

Gazardiel wrote...

I'll bring in another perspective on this (interesting discussion, and good for emphasizing that love and relationships work in many different ways): I was actually struck by how un-focused on sex DA2 was in comparison to DA:O.

1) You don't get achievements for boinking companions. I was fully expecting one on my first playthrough, and was (pleasantly?) surprised when I didn't get one after having Anders over.
2) OP - a gentle counter: on the one hand you say that the relationship relies heavily on sex, but then you point to how Anders considers the relationship over if you don't let him move in with you. To me, that actually decentralizes the sex from the relationship - it's the commitment and trust and support that matters to him, not the sex.
3) You *do* get an achievement for "completing" a romance with a companion, which to my observation only happened if you continued to love and support them through to the end of the game (with nary a "second boinking" in sight).

I do agree that there should be more variety and depth to the relationships, but I see the above as an improvement over DA:O's mechanics. Maybe in DA3 we'll see more ways to engage in an intimate relationship with companions.

1) Your terminology made me laugh! Certainly DA:O had one for each individual companion (for some reason)... In DA:E you do have one for persuing a romance though. It just treats the romances less like... well, collectables!

2) Yeah, I see your point, but if I remember right, that was me actually countering myself for debate: that the assumptions are not just physical. Even if you are wary of Anders moving into your house because he may hurt you, or you are worried his obsession is playing against him, you are forced to play it as using him, as there is no other option. All of the romances have physical gates, this is his.... emotional gate, I suppose?
Also, my mistake if I said that the relationships relied on sex... barring Isabela (and the minor point for Fenris) with make sense to. My real beef is that they are required for romantic progression, regardless of whether the character (Merril is the best example) would require it. Sebastian is an exception, which was unfortunately not too-well handled.

3) Yeah, definitive improvement there. Though DA:O allowed for asexual romance (or at least asexual interpretation), you only got your 'collectable' for said companion when you brought them into your tent. Thus is was possible to get three 'collectables' in one game, especially if your Warden is a bisexual male (Zevran, Morrigan, Leliana). CHEEVOS, HO!

As far as romances in DA:I go, well... Bioware staff have already remarked they have no intention to spend any more time, budget, and such on romances than the previous games have warranted. They don't want to turn there games in dating sims, they are options extras. However, considering that DA:O handled this sufficiently, I am hoping to see DA:I do similarly. It doesn't have to be out-of-the-water spectacular, just supportive of such play.

Modifié par Karsciyin, 13 décembre 2012 - 06:50 .

[snackrat]

schalafi wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Hypothetically how would the thread feel about a situation where the protagonist and the companion share their feelings for each other followed by a fade to black, with no explicit reference to sex following but among various interpretations you would be free to make as a player.

I can't wait to hear all the answers to this! 

This, I would support. It DOESN'T NEED to be explicitly "and then they never banged, ever". One can assume bow-chikka-wow-wow, or one can assume snuggle-tiems, or one can assume a deep emotionally meaningful conversation, or all of those in any order!

Problem is, many people want their fix of polygon smashing, for reasons of varying levels of stupidity/intelligence. Bioware may feel they stand to lose too much ground with that.

[thats1evildude]

Karsciyin wrote...

My real beef is that they are required for romantic progression, regardless of whether the character (Merril is the best example) would require it.

I dinnae follow. Merrill has a pretty strong sex drive.

[Lenimph]

 Since when was the first time two people having sex not a big deal assuming they're not in a  celibate relationship? 

Oh yeah when you're trying to romance Isabela, when the real end game/goal of her romance is actually getting her to be emotionally comfortable with the idea of a relationship where as the sex was just for fun. Isabela is probably the worst example of what the OP is referring to.  

Leliana or Alistair would probably be the best of example of an emotional bond culminating into a physical release and then the game not putting much content into the romance after but isn't that a way certain people just work?  And to say that all Bioware romances work this was is very false (especially the Dragon Age ones!).  Morrigan and Zevran also follow a similar route to Isabela's.  There's Sebastian too if you count him, no sex at all there.   

Karsciyin wrote...

My real beef is that they are required for romantic progression, regardless of whether the character (Merril is the best example) would require it.

I personally wouldn't date someone who wouldn't have some kind of sex with me eventually so I would find it fair if a romance didn't "advance" if you refused a physical intimacy with the other character, or even ended the romance if the decision upsetted the LI.   Physical intimacy is an important part of a relationship.  Don't get me wrong though it's certainly not the only thing and it's very possible to have one without it, but a relationship with it is going to develop differently then one without it.   

Modifié par Lenimph, 13 décembre 2012 - 06:52 .

[snackrat]

thats1evildude wrote...

Karsciyin wrote...

My real beef is that they are required for romantic progression, regardless of whether the character (Merril is the best example) would require it.

I dinnae follow. Merrill has a pretty strong sex drive.

Uhh... not to put pressure on you or anything, but what is this based on? Though Merril certainly doesn't shy away from 'dirty things', and could well have a sex drive, that's not what I am opposing. I'm saying she is a good example for not choosing Hawke because, yaaay! Sex!

[Maria Caliban]

Karsciyin wrote...

Why do the romances treat sex as so integral? In fact, they are usually considered an 'end goal'.

What romance in DA II had sex as an end goal?

Karsciyin wrote...


In DA:E (DAII) EVERY SINGLE ONE had it integral. If you refused it, it prevented any progress whatsoever (or ended the relationship).

Sebastian.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 13 décembre 2012 - 06:53 .

[thats1evildude]

Karsciyin wrote...

Uhh... not to put pressure on you or anything, but what is this based on? Though Merril certainly doesn't shy away from 'dirty things', and could well have a sex drive, that's not what I am opposing. I'm saying she is a good example for not choosing Hawke because, yaaay! Sex!

A pretty thorough exploration of Merrill's romance. For one thing, she's the only companion that independently searches for ways to spice up her sex life with Hawke.

On the subject of sex scenes, I'm mostly in the romance game for the heartwarming feels, so I really don't need a graphic depiction of sex. But I do want, at the very least, the implication that sex took place instead of the main character just holding hands for an hour.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 13 décembre 2012 - 06:57 .

[Xilizhra]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Hypothetically how would the thread feel about a situation where the protagonist and the companion share their feelings for each other followed by a fade to black, with no explicit reference to sex following but among various interpretations you would be free to make as a player.

No. I honestly feel this would make things less complete for those, like me, who enjoy sex. I'd much, much rather have an option to turn down sex altogether than put this incompleteness in.

[snackrat]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Karsciyin wrote...

Why do the romances treat sex as so integral? In fact, they are usually considered an 'end goal'.

What romance in DA II had sex as an end goal?

Yeah, I guess I should modify the OP. As I have said since, it don't
have a good choice of words to say what I mean succinctly. I'm saying
that the romance is not validated until sex occurs within it.

You're welcome to suggest a better phrase, if you like.

Maria Caliban wrote...

Karsciyin wrote...

In DA:E (DAII) EVERY SINGLE ONE had it integral. If you refused it, it prevented any progress whatsoever (or ended the relationship).

Sebastian.

Already mentioned as the exception in the OP. Hawke flirts with him (physically suggestive! Not emotionally) what, three times? And then he rests a hand on her shoulder and yay marriage! I would consider that not a 'true' romance. Not because it has no physical culmination (as some BSNers consider a validator), but because it has no.... real development. It's like putting flirt coins in a machine until marriage comes out.

[ShaggyWolf]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Hypothetically how would the thread feel about a situation where the protagonist and the companion share their feelings for each other followed by a fade to black, with no explicit reference to sex following but among various interpretations you would be free to make as a player.

I'll start by saying I wrote a rather lengthy post in an other thread a while back stating that I found sex scenes to be very important. I was not in favor of fade to blacks.

However, moving forward from that, I've realized that sex isn't the reason I start relationships in these games. I romance characters that I find fascinating as characters, and that I relate to and feel fondness for to some degree.

So with that in mind, I would love to see romance arcs written and executed in a such a way that what we see in the game focuses entirely on the character's emotional connection, with a focus on building and strengthening that bond. That, imo, has always been the most important part of romances in Bioware games. I won't complain if they do decide to include sex scenes, but I think it would be interesting to see what they would do without them. I think it could potentially work better, to leave the character's sexual aspect of their relationship to our imaginations, while placing an increased focus on their emotional bond.

[thats1evildude]

Karsciyin wrote...

Already mentioned as the exception in the OP. Hawke flirts with him (physically suggestive! Not emotionally) what, three times? And then he rests a hand on her shoulder and yay marriage! I would consider that not a 'true' romance. Not because it has no physical culmination (as some BSNers consider a validator), but because it has no.... real development. It's like putting flirt coins in a machine until marriage comes out.

There's non-physically suggestive flirting? News to me.

I'm having a trouble with this contradiction. On one hand you're saying that sex shouldn't be used as a gateway in a relationship, but you discount the one sexless relationship in the game because Sebastian never does anything more than make a commitment to you.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 13 décembre 2012 - 07:03 .

[Bfler]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Hypothetically how would the thread feel about a situation where the protagonist and the companion share their feelings for each other followed by a fade to black, with no explicit reference to sex following but among various interpretations you would be free to make as a player.

That's f.e. Neverwinter Nights 2:

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Bfler, 13 décembre 2012 - 07:12 .

[CuriousArtemis]

I like fade to black since the actual scenes of intimacy can look goofy or awkward. They did this in DA2 to some extent.

I think what would only enhance these already great romances would be for other characters to acknowledge it more. They did a little bit in DA2 and that was great. More, more, MORE!

[Lenimph]

Karsciyin wrote...

Uhh... not to put pressure on you or anything, but what is this based on? Though Merril certainly doesn't shy away from 'dirty things', and could well have a sex drive, that's not what I am opposing. I'm saying she is a good example for not choosing Hawke because, yaaay! Sex!

Merrill obviously goes to Hawke's estate searching for something physically intimate when she reveals her feelings to Hawke or atleast wants to have sex with Hawke eventually. You can assume this since what Hawke tells her that ends the romantic progress isn't mean or insulting, but it's "you're like a sister to me." Upon learning that Hawke thinks being physically intimate with her would be incestious Merrill leaves because she wasn't going to get what she wanted from Hawke. 

Modifié par Lenimph, 13 décembre 2012 - 07:10 .

[snackrat]

thats1evildude wrote...

Karsciyin wrote...

Already mentioned as the exception in the OP. Hawke flirts with him (physically suggestive! Not emotionally) what, three times? And then he rests a hand on her shoulder and yay marriage! I would consider that not a 'true' romance. Not because it has no physical culmination (as some BSNers consider a validator), but because it has no.... real development. It's like putting flirt coins in a machine until marriage comes out.

There's non-physically suggestive flirting? News to me.

I'm having a trouble with this contradiction. On one hand you're saying that sex shouldn't be used as a gateway in a relationship, but you discount the one sexless relationship in the game because Sebastian never does anything more than make a commitment to you.

No sex with Alistair? Works. No sex with Zevran? Works. Leliana should wait after the Blight? Works.

Perhaps the weakness is partly to blame in the time skips and the resulting lack of interaction? But I am not sure how to explain what I'm thinking any clearer, and I hope you can understand.

1) Hawke's flirts are physically suggestive. Of "damn the things I'd do to you boi" variety. So even though the relationship is chaste, it doesn't actually allow for asexual interpretation. You later get "things I'd do for your TITLE boi". I don't remember any "I care for you" or anything similar.

2) If I asked you, right now, "Will you marry me? Over the internet?" would you take that as emotional development? There was no emotional development, not truly. For Sebastian you could argue an emotional CHANGE, perhaps, though it falls more to RELATIONSHIP change. I am not romancing a car saleman if I commit myself to buy one of this cars, or a company if I buy stock.
The lack of touch is also a strong mark against him - not even a handshake, let alone a hug. There is no feeling of closeness. There is no feeling of love. These are not people that have grown together over a period of a few years, that have learned to appreciate each others' flaws, or be affected by them.
What few remarks ARE there are not taken too seriously, as memory serves. "Damn you hot" -> I need to pray. "No one would tell you who to do" -> Tempting but I can't. "Don't you want to protect meee" -> na your a BAMF "Wouldn't you need a princess hint hint" -> that would make a strong alliance, but I gotta be a prince first.

First time he actually says "I care about you, lots and lots fo' reals" it is immediately followed by "lets get married for the purity of out love!" It is all heavily directed by Hawke. Every single piece of flirty banter is directed by Hawke. He never visits you at home but to stare at your dog platonicly (who's to say sex has to happen?).

Modifié par Karsciyin, 13 décembre 2012 - 07:20 .

[Lenimph]

Karsciyin wrote...
First time he actually says "I care about you, lots and lots fo' reals" it is immediately followed by "lets get married for the purity of out love!"

There are people like this though.  My grandparents did something very similar because of their religious beliefs and they knew eachother a lot less longer then Hawke and Sebastian. 

[Redbelle]

Karsciyin wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

*snip*

BW games require role play and role play is best when it gives you multiple options for how to proceed. When it comes to how you want to further a relationship with a character, the player should have the option to proceed in a variety of manners. Sex being one, of many, of them.

...

As I have said, fine in-character. I dislike the assumption being either "Let us bang" or "I never loved you",

Also, " the player should have the option to proceed in a variety of manners. Sex being one, of many, of them.". Yep. I am not asking them to remove it. I am not saying it shouldn't have an impact in some ways. But you just said options. Plural. And one of them. An inidividual in a list. But that is literally the ONLY option, and that is what a politely request be changed.

Aaaaah, Gotcha

[Quething]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Hypothetically how would the thread feel about a situation where the protagonist and the companion share their feelings for each other followed by a fade to black, with no explicit reference to sex following but among various interpretations you would be free to make as a player.

Put me in the "no" column. DA:O obviously had pretty hilariously awkward sex scenes - and it's not just the underwear, they're not much better with a nude mod - but they're capable of much better. ME1's human sex scene conveyed intimacy and passion without feeling puerile, DA2's sex scenes with Fenris and Isabela elegantly advanced characterization (so much so that many Isabela fans have complained it's clearly a Friendship scene and doesn't fit the Rival path), which is always a virtue, and ME2's LotSB moment between Liara and Shep is masterfully organic foreplay that made that relationship work for me as a real connection between two loving adults for the first time ever. These are things that strengthen and enrich the story, which is the whole point of having romances to begin with.

Beyond that, there are some parts of an RPG that are served by ambiguity, but I would argue very strongly that this is absolutely not one of them. As a writer, I need to know what my characters have actually done and experienced in order to write how they react to it in a believable way; therefore, as a consumer, for me to believe that an NPC is being written honestly I must believe that the writer is working from the perspective that the fade to black resolved in a specific way. And thus in order for me as a gamer to have my PC react appropriately and honestly, I too need to know what the writer thinks happened.

Modifié par Quething, 13 décembre 2012 - 07:29 .

[Xilizhra]

ME1's human sex scene conveyed intimacy and passion without feeling puerile

I would say Liara's did just as well.

DA2's sex scenes with Fenris and Isabela elegantly advanced characterization (so much so that many Isabela fans have complained it's clearly a Friendship scene and doesn't fit the Rival path)

I can't speak for Anders, but I believe that Merrill's did this just as well.

[PsychoBlonde]

Karsciyin wrote...

Why do the romances treat sex as so integral? In fact, sex is usually treated as a form of 'validation' for the romance. 

Erm, I'd say, if there's no sex involved (either currently or as an interest for later) then it's not a romance.  It's a friendship.  The sexual component is what makes it a romance.  Ergo, you can't have a romance without a physical component.  So if you're talking about the difference between a romance and other types of relationships (which you do have with your companions), then you are talking about the sexual component.

It's the sex scene or the "we'll hook up later when things calm down and we can get married" thing that Sebastian does that marks the definite switchover from "I'm friends with X companion" to "I'm romantic with X companion".

As for having a meaningful or deep relationship with a given companion--I refused to pursue romance with 3 out of the 4 possibles in DA2, and still had relationships with them.  So it sounds like the complaint here is "I want to be able to reject them romantically AND romance them later".  Which is a spectacularly specific request that wouldn't make sense with most characters anyway and would require some fantastical writing contortions that probably wouldn't be worth the effort.

[upsettingshorts]

If the writers created the ambiguity on purpose - as they would have in this hypothetical - what then?

[Xilizhra]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

If the writers created the ambiguity on purpose - as they would have in this hypothetical - what then?

I would say that they made a poor decision to do so.

[upsettingshorts]

Xilizhra wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

If the writers created the ambiguity on purpose - as they would have in this hypothetical - what then?

I would say that they made a poor decision to do so.

What if the resources (cinematics, word budget, etc) was spent elsewhere in the relationship instead?

Is it a question of the sex scene (or closest thing thereof) taking precednce over other possible scenes that would also contribute to the story and provide characterization?  If so, what makes them special?

[Maria Caliban]

Quething wrote...
DA2's sex scenes with Fenris and Isabela elegantly advanced characterization (so much so that many Isabela fans have complained it's clearly a Friendship scene and doesn't fit the Rival path)...

I wouldn't say that 'many' fans have. It's a complaint I've heard about three times.

Anyways, the Rivalry path for Isabela is about disagreeing with her selfishness and amoral attitude, not her desire to get freaky in the sack.