228 réponses à ce sujet

[SirGladiator]

The romances in general have been 'dumbed down' these days and its unfortunate. The ability to just click the heart button enough times and you've succeeded at the relationship is one example, the universal focus on sex before marriage is another. I still remember the BG2 romance with Aerie, where you FAILED the romance if you slept with her before marriage. It would be nice to have a focus more on getting to know your LI, more in-depth conversations, and less about the sex. Don't get me wrong, I love a good love scene as much as anybody, but I'd rather have a really good kissing scene than a sex scene any day of the week. For some reason Bioware tends to hire people that arent any good at kissing scenes, they should put more work on that.

[Xilizhra]

SirGladiator wrote...

The romances in general have been 'dumbed down' these days and its unfortunate. The ability to just click the heart button enough times and you've succeeded at the relationship is one example, the universal focus on sex before marriage is another. I still remember the BG2 romance with Aerie, where you FAILED the romance if you slept with her before marriage. It would be nice to have a focus more on getting to know your LI, more in-depth conversations, and less about the sex. Don't get me wrong, I love a good love scene as much as anybody, but I'd rather have a really good kissing scene than a sex scene any day of the week. For some reason Bioware tends to hire people that arent any good at kissing scenes, they should put more work on that.

Given that same-sex marriage (and marriage for love in general) isn't really a thing in the DA universe, I hardly see how it could be otherwise. As for the heart buttons, I believe it's more to prevent ninjamancing.

[Iakus]

SirGladiator wrote...

The romances in general have been 'dumbed down' these days and its unfortunate. The ability to just click the heart button enough times and you've succeeded at the relationship is one example, the universal focus on sex before marriage is another. I still remember the BG2 romance with Aerie, where you FAILED the romance if you slept with her before marriage. It would be nice to have a focus more on getting to know your LI, more in-depth conversations, and less about the sex. Don't get me wrong, I love a good love scene as much as anybody, but I'd rather have a really good kissing scene than a sex scene any day of the week. For some reason Bioware tends to hire people that arent any good at kissing scenes, they should put more work on that.

I don't think it was befor emarriage (as Aerie and CHARNAME get married in the epilogue) as the romance failed if you accept her initial offer, as she was not emotionally ready to take that step yet.

[Inquisitor Recon]

I agree, this is why the broodmother should be the only romance option. Look past the hideous body and you'll find a lovely women with an insane desire to kill you.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

I still don't know exactly what makes you x-sexual ... desiring to have sex with 'x', or be too emotionally attached to 'x'. I believe in first.
Similarly, Plato's friendship isn't sexual or so it seems, so it doesn't make this kind of friendship x-sexual.

[snackrat]

Xilizhra wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

I agree with this completely.

I'm totally not against my protagonist having sex -- but it did rather cheapen the DAII romances once I discovered that saying "no" to their advances (whether it was more "I'm not ready" for relational/character reasons or "now isn't a good time" for story reasons) meant I was going to get dumped.

IRL, that's not a healthy relationship. It's not an equal partnership. Both parties should feel free to say no, and unashamed about saying yes.

The lack of control on that point is distressing not just because I'm the protagonist and I should control everything because this is an RPG and I payed money, dammit. It's distressing because a relationship where sex doesn't happen unless the other person demands it and refusing means you'll be abandoned is a terrible model for a relationship. And less appealing for me to engage in.
(especially since Anders and Fenris both essentially check out of the relationship afterwards)

One of the reasons I choose to opt out of the DAII romances on my recent playthroughs, though it wasn't game-breaker (because I'm obviously still playing).

But... that's not the issue. At least not with Merrill; again, I can't really speak for other romances. In her case, though, sex is never the primary issue (although the sex scene is by far the best in the game); the only possible flaw is Hawke not having enough dialogue options, because Merrill never brings up sex as a primary component of anything.

Actually, as the OP is it part of the issue.
See, asexuals are a small enough minority I don't expect full catering: Sebastian, as compeltely chaste option, is incredibly rare in real life. What I am suggesting is less specific than that, more flexible, allows for a larger range of interpretation, and doesn't require an excessive additional amount of work to input.

All I am hoping for it this: the chance for the PC to refuse sex with a LI, without that automatically either a) ending the relationship (especially under the assumption of PC being vindictive), or locking it in a 'holding pattern' so there is absolutely no related dialogue and emotional advancement until sex happens.

This could be:
-> PC is nervous, not ready.
-> PC prefers to wait for their own timing rather than at the call of others.
-> PC prefers a higher degree of social intimacy before instigating physical intimacy.
-> PC perfers a committed relationship (engaged/married/de facto/etc) before physical intimacy.
-> PC is currently greiving or in a emotionally vulnerable state where sex would be inappriopriate.
-> PC RP may find physical relationships intimidating (rather than jumping at the chance).
-> Player may not want the sex scenes for whatever reason (they feel silly, worried people will walk in, etc)
-> and then YES, perhaps the player/PC has no interest on acting upon the romance physically.

It is one reason of many. It can sit separate from gameplay. This is a game here, so we are not hurting NPC's feelings if we never have a render of their model colliding awkwardly with PC's.

As I have said, my beef isn't that sex is involved in romances. The problem is that it comes at the NPC's call, whenever that would be, and you have to options: take, it immediately, with a "hell yes sir, in the sack!" or say "no, also I never loved you, GTFO" or similar. Why is it that there are several options for the NPCs to deny Hawke ("No I'll just hurt you"/"That wouldn't be wise"/etc) but NOTHING for Hawke to deny the NPCs? The assumption being that the NPCs have their reasons and boundries but Hawke is always randy and ready? That Hawke is the sole driver?

Merril's is also a little backward in that she is asking for emotional commitment, which is fine. That actually makes sense at an ultimatum (Anders moving in takes a turn for the extreme though) - yet that automatically comes with physical commitment. Like, right then Considering that felt the one moment when things got serious for the first time, it felt (to me) that I was somehow... using Merril in that way, a sort of "yes I love you, we'll bang ok" sort of fashion.

[snackrat]

Legatus Arianus wrote...

I still don't know exactly what makes you x-sexual ... desiring to have sex with 'x', or be too emotionally attached to 'x'. I believe in first.
Similarly, Plato's friendship isn't sexual or so it seems, so it doesn't make this kind of friendship x-sexual.

x-sexual -> what you find sexually attractive, interested in physical relationships with
x-romantic -> what you find emotionally attractive, interested in emotionally intimate relationships with (note: different from 'friends')

The average person is heteromantic and heterosexual. -romantics usually are assumed to align with their sexuality, so it generally only gets mentioned separately in two case - one, a bisexual (or biromantic) describing a preference romanitcally (or sexually) - or as is more often the case, an asexual describing a romantic preference. Asexuals are not necessarily 'no relationships ever', or even 'no sex ever'. In fact, because said people generally recognise that sex is important to their partner even if not to them (assuming their partner is not asexual also) many will consent to sex with their partner even if they are not interested in instigating it. I would not consider it a common thing, however, for them to immediately provide when asked in an early stage of a relationship, but there would of couse be exceptions.

Other people have also used the term 'asexual' to refer to those are aren't necessarily disinterested in sex as a rule, but do not view their relationships or potential mates in a sexual manner. Asexuality is a little fussy to describe in that regard, but like all matters of gender and sexual identity it cannot be accurately painted.

Also, a debate for another topic.

Modifié par Karsciyin, 14 décembre 2012 - 07:17 .

[lyriumaddict104]

PsychoBlonde wrote...
The only fundamental distinguishing factor between whether or not a given relationship is a romance is whether or not there's sexual attraction or sex involved.  So the discussion is really kind of bizarre because either you fail at defining romance or you're asking for something IN ADDITION TO romance.  You want romance without sex being the defining part of it?  Well, if you're talking about romance vs. friendship, sex IS the defining part of it.  You want romances with more content so the sex doesn't stand out like a sore thumb?  Now you're requesting more content.  You find the sex scenes appalling?  Now you're asking for different content.  You want to be able to reject someone AND romance them later?  Now you're asking for spectacularly specific different content.

It's impossible to formulate a useful methodology to address this when you're asking for a number of very different things all at once.  Pick which one is the one you actually want instead of trying to package a bunch of semi-related but different things together.

^ This. I want more content. I haven't said "no" to companion yet so I haven't seen for myself what their reactions are to Hawke's refusal to have sex with them. It makes sense to want a better option to say, "not now", or "you're moving too fast", without implying that Hawke will never be interested in having sex with that person. If Hawke isn't clear enough however, in his/her refusal, then what is said can be interpreted by the companion to mean something like, "you're too disgusting", or "I am not interested in you, in that way". And with the time gaps that others mentioned, DA2's relationships do feel forced and like the sex is all that matters because there aren't many conversations to be had with our chosen companions before and after they have sex. I would like a return to how DA: O handled the relationships, with much more dialogue prior to the "main event" and options afterwards, even if we only get to ask questions about what is going on in the world, like "what do you think of what just happened?".

[In Exile]

SirGladiator wrote...

The romances in general have been 'dumbed down' these days and its unfortunate. The ability to just click the heart button enough times and you've succeeded at the relationship is one example, the universal focus on sex before marriage is another.  

My favourite example is where I did that with Aveline. Wait... 

[snackrat]

In Exile wrote...

SirGladiator wrote...

The romances in general have been 'dumbed down' these days and its unfortunate. The ability to just click the heart button enough times and you've succeeded at the relationship is one example, the universal focus on sex before marriage is another.  

My favourite example is where I did that with Aveline. Wait... 

Heh! Am I alone in actually approving on this? Well, many from an individual perspective I thought "damn! But she's the least crazy, most appealling, most in-character choice for this Hawke!" but I approve of the general idea of having a companion that wouldn't fill a romantic role (something Varric also did, but the oppurtunities to flirt with him are few and far between) rather than jumping at the chance. Makes the people feel more organic, like they're not just 'on-call' for "teh luv tiems".

I'm still on the fence as to whether she is incredibly dense and doesn't realise what Hawke implies with those dialogues, or she is hoping if she says FRIEND enough times Hawke will realise Aveline only views them platonicly and back off. I suppose either interpretation is valid since it is never clarified.

Modifié par Karsciyin, 14 décembre 2012 - 07:25 .

[In Exile]

Karsciyin wrote...

I'm still on the fence as to whether she is incredibly dense and doesn't realise what Hawke implies with those dialogues, or she is hoping if she says FRIEND enough times Hawke will realise Aveline only views them platonicly and back off. I suppose either interpretation is valid since it is never clarified.

Aveline is by far my favourite character in DA2 because she seems to be the only one with an actual spine vis-a-vis Hawke. She has a life. She has her own dream. And she's pursuing it. She has a sense of purpose. I can't gush enough about how Aveline is just such a brilliant character. 

[Iakus]

You're not alone

Once I got over the frustration, I found it incredibly funny

[Saibh]

Ivandra Ceruden wrote...

All of these sex-obsessed topics...Sheesh, people need to get out more often. Look, I'll tell you all something terribly mind-boggling: I'd perfectly be ok being in a relationship without any sex at all. I simply have no need for it, and I also don't think sex is what defines a relationship as a relationship. It would be immature at least to assume so.

This is a thread with a specific lack of desire for sex-obsession. 

And, in any case, if you made a ton of threads about combat, do you think it's fair for me to call you a bloodthirsty potential murderer who needs therapy to be rid of your bloodlust? There's this prevalent attitude on the DA forums to equate the romances with a plain lust for sex in the game, rather than what I feel people actually desire which is just the romance arc (and sex is often a part of a romantic relationship).

[fchopin]

In my opinion i think BW should go back to quality rather than quantity.

If romances are similar to DA2 then it will be no more romances for me in DA games.
Try implementing some interesting characters instead of the idiotic DA2 characters.

Modifié par fchopin, 14 décembre 2012 - 10:32 .

[Wullo]

SirGladiator wrote...

The romances in general have been 'dumbed down' these days and its unfortunate. The ability to just click the heart button enough times and you've succeeded at the relationship is one example, the universal focus on sex before marriage is another. I still remember the BG2 romance with Aerie, where you FAILED the romance if you slept with her before marriage. It would be nice to have a focus more on getting to know your LI, more in-depth conversations, and less about the sex. Don't get me wrong, I love a good love scene as much as anybody, but I'd rather have a really good kissing scene than a sex scene any day of the week. For some reason Bioware tends to hire people that arent any good at kissing scenes, they should put more work on that.

I think the kissing scene in Jade Empire was a good one, at least between female PC and Sky (that's the one I had, so I can't speak for the others)



At least I think it's cute 

Modifié par Wullo, 14 décembre 2012 - 11:15 .

[Parmida]

YES! 'twas awesome when I could just refuse Zevran in that shy manner like a virgin and then when I'd come back he'd tease me like hell! 'twas just perfect for my very lawful good, shy and virgin character. :3 and I could just wait till ZevZev settled down for the warden....how romantic.... *dreamy sigh*
I loved all that teasing so much! give me all the teasing you want! oh, and I support the OP! :3

[Xilizhra]

All I am hoping for it this: the chance for the PC to refuse sex with a LI, without that automatically either a) ending the relationship (especially under the assumption of PC being vindictive), or locking it in a 'holding pattern' so there is absolutely no related dialogue and emotional advancement until sex happens.

Would you allow the sex scene to happen at any point from there, then?

As I have said, my beef isn't that sex is involved in romances. The problem is that it comes at the NPC's call, whenever that would be, and you have to options: take, it immediately, with a "hell yes sir, in the sack!" or say "no, also I never loved you, GTFO" or similar. Why is it that there are several options for the NPCs to deny Hawke ("No I'll just hurt you"/"That wouldn't be wise"/etc) but NOTHING for Hawke to deny the NPCs? The assumption being that the NPCs have their reasons and boundries but Hawke is always randy and ready? That Hawke is the sole driver?

Perhaps. Hawke was also assumed to be Andrastian. There've been characterization choice issues.

Merril's is also a little backward in that she is asking for emotional commitment, which is fine. That actually makes sense at an ultimatum (Anders moving in takes a turn for the extreme though) - yet that automatically comes with physical commitment. Like, right then Considering that felt the one moment when things got serious for the first time, it felt (to me) that I was somehow... using Merril in that way, a sort of "yes I love you, we'll bang ok" sort of fashion.

Trust me, you're by no means "using' her unless you dump her immediately thereafter. She's quite eager herself.

Well, many from an individual perspective I thought "damn! But she's the least crazy, most appealling, most in-character choice for this Hawke!"

The most in-character choice for your Hawke, I assume you meant?

[Bfler]

Ivandra Ceruden wrote...
I'd perfectly be ok being in a relationship without any sex at all. I simply have no need for it, and I also don't think sex is what defines a relationship as a relationship. It would be immature at least to assume so.

Imagine, it would be possible to travel back in time. You could convince your parents to live on the basis of this motto.

[Amycus89]

Well, one of my complaints with recent Bioware games is that the romances have been reduced to sidequests where the ultimate goal is to end up in bed with a certain companion to get another achievement. After the sexscene the romance is pretty much over. I loved for example how I could still have a unique conversation with Morrigan in DA:O even after the dark ritual, during the battle of Denerim.

Sometimes I wish that Bioware would just try to write ONE romance without any sexscenes involved, just to bring out their creativity and see what they can do with it. I loved Fall-From-Grace in Planescape for example, a Succubus that couldn't even kiss you, because that would kill you. I thought they were going something like that with Tali in ME2, but no, thankfully enough Sheppard had the time to search around the galaxy for a way to bed her, despite the reaper threat (they even mentioned the dilemma in one of the NPC dialogues you could overhear in one of the bars in the game, "Don't let some human spoil you").

Herer is hoping that they add a qunari as a love interest, and entering any lovescene with them ends in insta-death

[Xilizhra]

Well, one of my complaints with recent Bioware games is that the romances have been reduced to sidequests where the ultimate goal is to end up in bed with a certain companion to get another achievement. After the sexscene the romance is pretty much over. I loved for example how I could still have a unique conversation with Morrigan in DA:O even after the dark ritual, during the battle of Denerim.

But... that's not the case in DA2; the romance doesn't even finish until the prelude to the final battle.

Sometimes I wish that Bioware would just try to write ONE romance without any sexscenes involved, just to bring out their creativity and see what they can do with it. I loved Fall-From-Grace in Planescape for example, a Succubus that couldn't even kiss you, because that would kill you. I thought they were going something like that with Tali in ME2, but no, thankfully enough Sheppard had the time to search around the galaxy for a way to bed her, despite the reaper threat (they even mentioned the dilemma in one of the NPC dialogues you could overhear in one of the bars in the game, "Don't let some human spoil you").

Wait, what? Energy drain is a willingly activated effect, not something that's always on without being able to turn it off. Unless that was changed in 3E, in which case it's clearly a very good thing.

[hoorayforicecream]

Amycus89 wrote...

Well, one of my complaints with recent Bioware games is that the romances have been reduced to sidequests where the ultimate goal is to end up in bed with a certain companion to get another achievement. After the sexscene the romance is pretty much over. I loved for example how I could still have a unique conversation with Morrigan in DA:O even after the dark ritual, during the battle of Denerim.

This has not been the case in Dragon Age. It has in Mass Effect. None of the romances in DA2 culminated in sex - all of the sex scenes occur in act 2, not act 3. DAO is actually far more guilty of this than DA2 is, considering that it actually awards romance achievements after sex and not after completing the actual romance.

Sometimes I wish that Bioware would just try to write ONE romance without any sexscenes involved, just to bring out their creativity and see what they can do with it. I loved Fall-From-Grace in Planescape for example, a Succubus that couldn't even kiss you, because that would kill you. I thought they were going something like that with Tali in ME2, but no, thankfully enough Sheppard had the time to search around the galaxy for a way to bed her, despite the reaper threat (they even mentioned the dilemma in one of the NPC dialogues you could overhear in one of the bars in the game, "Don't let some human spoil you").

Samara and Sebastian should both qualify for these criteria.

[Saibh]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Samara and Sebastian should both qualify for these criteria.

Neither of which are actually full romances. I believe Sebastian's writer denied he was a romance after DAII came out...although the following DLC makes it a little more concrete. And he's DLC, after all. If you want to call him a romance, then that just highlights the problem with BioWare treating sex as an endgame or...climax...for the romance: he never has a dedicated romantic scene, regardless of sex. 

Samara has one dialogue where you flirt with her and she says "It ain't happening, sorry" and you briefly reference it later in ME3. That's not a dedicated relationship/romance without sex, because it's not a relationship at all. 

Modifié par Saibh, 15 décembre 2012 - 06:53 .