228 réponses à ce sujet

[vanom66]

SEX

[AlbinaTekla]

Jumping someone's bones so quickly makes video game romances become boring and uneventful. Its like 'Okay what now" The lead up should be awesome.

[Xilizhra]

ejoslin wrote...

Nefla wrote...

You can love someone and be very close and devoted to someone without it being a romance. Parents, children, friends, all loved but not in a romantic way. Sex/sexual attraction is what changes a deep friendship/brotherhood/whatever into a romantic relationship.

Why is it that people have no problem understanding sex without love, but cannot understand romantic love without sex?  What if someone cannot physically have sex?  Does that mean they cannot feel romantic love?  Of course not.  

And while I do think that sexual attraction is often part of the chemestry of a romantic relationship, it most definitely is not what defines it.  There can be a deep sexual attraction without it becoming a romantic relationship (I'm sure most people will agree with this -- especially those in FWB situations).  So it's not the sexual attraction that will necessarily change the friendship to a romantic one.  It's the feelings involved that makes the relationship.

Bah, I'm probably repeating myself at this point.  

The feelings, yes, but sex is frequently a vital component of
keeping them going; how frequently sex is required varies from person to
person, of course, but in terms of adult relationships, wholly sexless
romantic relationships will likely involve at least one asexual partner
and/or a relationship where one or both parties are too physically
incapacitated to have sex, but with sex having happened beforehand in
the relationship and it surviving more based on time and comfort (which
can, of course, still be romantic) rather than the same variety of
passion.

[Nefla]

Ok then guys enlighten me. What is the difference between run of the mill love/relationships such as with a family member or very close friend and a "romantic"
asexual love?

[Xilizhra]

Nefla wrote...

Ok then guys enlighten me. What is the difference between run of the mill love/relationships such as with a family member or very close friend and a "romantic"
asexual love?

I think it's based around just feeling in love, and would likely include other forms of physical affection that wouldn't go directly into sex.

[snackrat]

I think part of where this current discussion is that we're talking about purely chaste relationships and how they work in reality. As has been established many times over, this is about the option of the PC saying 'no', for whatever reason, which may include PC or player chastity but not necessarily. The option to continue to grow closer emotionally without having to commit anything physically first, regardless of whether the in-character PC has any intentions of ever doing so.

What makes love, love - and romance, romance - is a philosophical and political issue unrelated to Dragon Age, so if this thread sits too long in that area it could well be closed.

Modifié par Karsciyin, 16 décembre 2012 - 07:17 .

[d4eaming]

Fiacre wrote...

I also agree that the love scenes in DA2 felt quite odd in that regard -- Fenris' had me thinking that hey, actually Hawke isn't ready for this. Only made more awkward by the fact that he wouldn't be enthusiatically kissing Fenris back after being thrown against a wall. (I will never understand why you can't call fenris out on that, because, uh, Fenris, not cool. As ridiculous -- and inaccurate  -- DA:O's sex scenes may have been, at least no one gets thrown against any walls.)

To be fair, at this point it should be pretty obvious that Fenris is very sensitive about being touched, what with the abuse and torture and sexual assault from Denarius. That he is even willing to continue when Hawke kisses him says something about his level of trust in Hawke, followed by him deciding that he's actually not even ready for it and leaving for three years, I have no problem with his reaction. Maybe being able to say "you're a jerkass for that" might have been nice, but it never once crossed my mind that any of my Hawkes would do so. I sympathise with him, as I absolutely hate being touched by anyone (makes any sort of intimacy kind of a problem), so I can totally relate to his reaction to being suddenly grabbed, possibly even in a way that reminded him of his treatment by Denarius. He is surprised, sensitive to touch, and it's simply an instinctive reaction. He looks exceedingly ashamed by it to me, with the way he suddenly looks down and away, lowering his eyes and unable to meet Hawke's gaze.

[HTTP 404]

relationships are important....why so much focus on the romances?

[esper]

Xilizhra wrote...

Nefla wrote...

Ok then guys enlighten me. What is the difference between run of the mill love/relationships such as with a family member or very close friend and a "romantic"
asexual love?

I think it's based around just feeling in love, and would likely include other forms of physical affection that wouldn't go directly into sex.

The physical thing differs from asexual to asexual just like it does for sexuals. It has to do with the feeling of romantic love.

Love towards family is not the same kind of love as it is towards friends is not the same kind of love as it is towards a lover.

I for example gets emotionally, then intellectually attracted to people. It is still a romantic attraction, but it is not sexual.

[Gazardiel]

d4eaming wrote...

To be fair, at this point it should be pretty obvious that Fenris is very sensitive about being touched, what with the abuse and torture and sexual assault from Denarius. That he is even willing to continue when Hawke kisses him says something about his level of trust in Hawke, followed by him deciding that he's actually not even ready for it and leaving for three years, I have no problem with his reaction. Maybe being able to say "you're a jerkass for that" might have been nice, but it never once crossed my mind that any of my Hawkes would do so. I sympathise with him, as I absolutely hate being touched by anyone (makes any sort of intimacy kind of a problem), so I can totally relate to his reaction to being suddenly grabbed, possibly even in a way that reminded him of his treatment by Denarius. He is surprised, sensitive to touch, and it's simply an instinctive reaction. He looks exceedingly ashamed by it to me, with the way he suddenly looks down and away, lowering his eyes and unable to meet Hawke's gaze.

This is very insightful about Fenris' character!  I'm not quite as averse to touch as you, but I definitely need my personal space and get very itchy when people don't respect it.  Add to Fenris' trauma the likelihood that he has never had positive intimate physical experiences - he probably doesn't know how one can show desire in a gentle way (and maybe that confused him after being with Hawke, for those whose Hawke would be caring and careful).  This reminds me that the romances (and sex scenes) can serve as good vehicles for character development and insight if done well - and I'd rather have that than romance scenes that fit what I personally might prefer as a player.

[d4eaming]

Gazardiel wrote...

This is very insightful about Fenris' character!  I'm not quite as averse to touch as you, but I definitely need my personal space and get very itchy when people don't respect it.  Add to Fenris' trauma the likelihood that he has never had positive intimate physical experiences - he probably doesn't know how one can show desire in a gentle way (and maybe that confused him after being with Hawke, for those whose Hawke would be caring and careful).  This reminds me that the romances (and sex scenes) can serve as good vehicles for character development and insight if done well - and I'd rather have that than romance scenes that fit what I personally might prefer as a player.

You're right, I imagine he hasn't had positive physical experiences. His first memories are blinding pain, and then it's pretty clear Denarius abused him in various ways even after that. I doubt he ever expected anyone to touch him in a kind way. With my Hawke, I feel his reaction of kissing Fenris after being shoved to the wall and threatened (since Fenris does turn on his lyrium ghost ability, typically a prelude to internal organ rearangement) shows that my Hawke trusts him too. Fenris is ashamed of his own fearful reaction to his friend and becomes defensive, turning to his own power to protect himself, and even despite that, Hawke doesn't shove him away but instead initiates a kind, loving contact. Fenris might have fallen into an old habit of defensiveness, but Hawke shows Fenris that he still cares and trusts him, and after a few seconds, Fenris gives in.

Perhaps there could have been a little blurb of Fenris apologising rather than Hawke calling him a jerk, but after their night, he got a bit overwhelmed and caught up in his confusion and, I think, maybe some fear of even having a relationship, so he ran away. My Hawke stayed faithful to the end and they made up, and Fenris was more than willing to show Hawke that he'd changed and no longer feared physical contact. The fade-to-black in Act3 when they get back together implies they had sex again, this time while level headed and without surprises. He'd come to terms with things and was willing to let someone, or at least Hawke, touch him without raising his defenses.

[Fiacre]

I definitely understand why Fenris would do that and all, it's just... My reaction to being thrown against a wall, no matter why Fenris may have reacted like that, wouldn't be making out with him, particularly since yes, there's the Lyrium ghost. I think I'd be a bit busy being rather terrified. If it were still part of controllable interaction instead of a cutscene, and -- to bring this back to the topic -- you could have declined sex without ending the romance (or continue as in the original scene, or take on a passive role etc.) Id like it a lot better, so I guess it's not so much the wall throwing that puts me off as it's Hawke's reaction to it and the fact that "You threw me against a wall and turned on Lyrium Ghost" never comes up anywhere.

(Admittedly, a lot about the romance -- especially as mage Hawke -- isn't really all that healthy, but the more I've thought about that scene, the more uncomfortable it makes me. I really wish we'd had more control in a situation like that -- letting it slide and even agree to sex i Fenris had initiated that is definitely something my Hawke would have done, but I'd rather the game let me use that as characterozation and recognize that it may not be the most heatly thing than just give me that cutscene where Hawke is completely okay with it and is much more interested in making out with Fenris. Particularly since Fenris himself didn't look the most comfortable, IIRC, at least in a rivalmance.)

So yeah. I think that's definitely a scene that I think could have benefited from an option to say, "I care a lot about you, but can we please not do this right now?"

[schalafi]

I never romanced Fenris, but as a Mage Hawke, I really enjoyed changing his mind and gradually making him a friend. Just having him get over his prejudice for all Mages was rewarding. I was always interested in getting my companions out of the "red"zone and into the "blue".

[d4eaming]

Fiacre wrote...

I definitely understand why Fenris would do that and all, it's just... My reaction to being thrown against a wall, no matter why Fenris may have reacted like that, wouldn't be making out with him, particularly since yes, there's the Lyrium ghost. I think I'd be a bit busy being rather terrified. If it were still part of controllable interaction instead of a cutscene, and -- to bring this back to the topic -- you could have declined sex without ending the romance (or continue as in the original scene, or take on a passive role etc.) Id like it a lot better, so I guess it's not so much the wall throwing that puts me off as it's Hawke's reaction to it and the fact that "You threw me against a wall and turned on Lyrium Ghost" never comes up anywhere.

(Admittedly, a lot about the romance -- especially as mage Hawke -- isn't really all that healthy, but the more I've thought about that scene, the more uncomfortable it makes me. I really wish we'd had more control in a situation like that -- letting it slide and even agree to sex i Fenris had initiated that is definitely something my Hawke would have done, but I'd rather the game let me use that as characterozation and recognize that it may not be the most heatly thing than just give me that cutscene where Hawke is completely okay with it and is much more interested in making out with Fenris. Particularly since Fenris himself didn't look the most comfortable, IIRC, at least in a rivalmance.)

So yeah. I think that's definitely a scene that I think could have benefited from an option to say, "I care a lot about you, but can we please not do this right now?"

Ah yeah, Fenris angry sex. I will agree it's probably not the most healthy of relationships at that point. If the wall throwing had been done to me, the person, I'd have a problem with it as well, but my character wouldn't.

The other option, where he leaves and then comes back because you do Questioning Beliefs after Bitter Pill, is a bit less violent.

http://social.biowar...6801143#6805471

If you do Questioning Beliefs AFTER A Bitter Pill (or let Fenris leave),
he will be waiting at Hawke's Estate in the evening and proposition
you. He will not glow in this scene, but you get a passionate kiss that
isn't in the first one.

Fenris' alternate romance scene.

So, it's all a reaction to Hawke grabbing him and physically attempting to stop him. No matter Hawke's intentions, it's a reaction to Hawke and being surprised. So, if you want to avoid the wall throwing (Hawke does it instead) let him leave and wait for him to come back.

Poor confused boy will still go back to brood in his mansion afterward, but it's a potentially less upsetting option. I almost always do Questioning Beliefs right as Act2 starts and try to stop him when he leaves. Maybe my current playthrough should go the other option, since I totally forgot that even happens.

Modifié par d4eaming, 16 décembre 2012 - 05:59 .

[Arppis]

As long as you can have purely physical relationships.

[rapscallioness]

In DAO my PC could say, "no", or "maybe later" without losing the future option to romance and/or become physically intimate.

One time my Warden was all in the Orzammar/Deep Roads thing. I went back to the party camp cuz...idk..I forgot something, w/e. As soon as I got there, the nookie w/Alistair cutscene triggered. I loved Alistir and wanted the nookie, but it was not the time. We had things to do. I had other things on my mind that needed taking care of first.

I had the option of saying "maybe later". After we're done w/Orz. we'll have some nookie. Grab some brunch the next day. Perhaps do sum antiquing? Still gotta find that Urn, you know. Would you like that, Baby?

Point is, I wasn't shut out from the romance because I didn't want to do it right then. In DA2 you put out, or you're shut out. Boo. Hiss.

p.s. as far as the time skips, I just head canon that as Hawke's drinking problem that ends w/severe blackouts. So she missed the romantic buildup, I guess. Apparently, Hawke has a very high alcohol thresh hold considering she can drink and drink and never actually get drunk......

[MiSS Provencale]

Romances make the charm of bioware games and make them unique and I would even real. However, it is clear that the "sensuality" should be a little more present and working. As some people say, sex is part of life, human beings can not ignore their instincts but I digress! Bioware does not force anyone to establish a relationship with a partner. We are free. I'm not gay but I love doing gay romances (for example). The game offers us a certain freedom. There are choices to make and does not require anyone to follow a particular voice!

[rapscallioness]

Oh, and a quick note. I would also like to have the option...return..to tell the NPC that "we need to end this".

[Estelindis]

Xilizhra wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Hypothetically how would the thread feel about a situation where the protagonist and the companion share their feelings for each other followed by a fade to black, with no explicit reference to sex following but among various interpretations you would be free to make as a player.

No. I honestly feel this would make things less complete for those, like me, who enjoy sex. I'd much, much rather have an option to turn down sex altogether than put this incompleteness in.

But it would be up to each person to imagine what happened.  How would that take anything away from you?

[Xilizhra]

Estelindis wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Hypothetically how would the thread feel about a situation where the protagonist and the companion share their feelings for each other followed by a fade to black, with no explicit reference to sex following but among various interpretations you would be free to make as a player.

No. I honestly feel this would make things less complete for those, like me, who enjoy sex. I'd much, much rather have an option to turn down sex altogether than put this incompleteness in.

But it would be up to each person to imagine what happened.  How would that take anything away from you?

It takes cutscene time away from me, which can advance characterization quite a lot, as it did with Merrill.

[Fishy]

Actually you bone most character outside of Leliana before they fall in love with you. So it's really just casual sex for everyone.

[Pauravi]

Karsciyin wrote...

Why do the romances treat sex as so integral? In fact, sex is usually treated as a form of 'validation' for the romance. Now for some characters that makes sense

For ALL characters it makes sense -- for the simple reason that, for most of us, physical intimacy is a normal part of every adult romantic relationship.  It is a defining factor.  Someone I'm close to but not intimate with is just my friend.

[Pauravi]

AlbinaTekla wrote...

Jumping someone's bones so quickly makes video game romances become boring and uneventful. Its like 'Okay what now"

Not necessarily, not at all.
For instance, in Viconia's romance in Baldur's Gate she sleeps with you relatively early simply because she doesn't connect sex with emotional closeness.  However, your role as her significant other puts you in a position to help her find her hidden, internal sense of decency, desire for love, and possibly even a change in alignment.  She is rather like Morrigan, really; the romance doesn't end with the sex, it begins with it.  The willingness to engage in physical intimacy lays the groundwork for opening them up emotionally.

[snackrat]

Arppis wrote...

As long as you can have purely physical relationships.

Isabela. (Don't talk about her past and your golden, banter will make it apparent they're still meeting).
Zevran, Morrigan. (Don't push the approval ranking, both with still sleep with the Warden when requested.)

Since the approval ratings are a measure of emotional closeness (on the romantic path, emotional intimacy), that can go with the territory.
Bioware will never make romances more than a boolean value - friendship, or romance. So I doubt bunk-buddies will ever be an option while still pushing the bars - Isabela being the ONLY exception (mostly because you establish you are bunk-buddies ahead of time).

[Pauravi]

Estelindis wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Hypothetically how would the thread feel about a situation where the protagonist and the companion share their feelings for each other followed by a fade to black, with no explicit reference to sex following but among various interpretations you would be free to make as a player.

No. I honestly feel this would make things less complete for those, like me, who enjoy sex. I'd much, much rather have an option to turn down sex altogether than put this incompleteness in.

But it would be up to each person to imagine what happened.  How would that take anything away from you?

Because it doesn't feel real that way.  This isn't our story to tell; we take part in it, but it's like reading one of those "Choose Your Own Adventure" books.  We can make a choice, but we rely on the game to tell us what happens.  When we start arbitrarily making up the consequences for our own actions we have, in that moment, stepped outside the role that we play in the rest of the game.  We are no longer the reader, or the player, we are the writer.  Pretending that something happened just because we wanted it to happen that way feels like cheating, it doesn't feel legitimate, and it doesn't feel like an integral part of the story.  You can take your Choose Your Own Adventure book and scrawl "and they moved to the country and had 17 kids and lived happily ever after" in pen at the end of the last page if you want, but that doesn't mean that the story now ends that way.

Modifié par Pauravi, 17 décembre 2012 - 08:58 .