269 réponses à ce sujet

[LinksOcarina]

Steelcan wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

The Reapers conquer Earth in a matter of hours -> Earth has the highest reaper presence/most Processors -> we have some guerilla warfare (Anderson did say the reapers were focusing on major urban areas at first while at the same time they were pretty much ignoring rural areas, so thats how people managed to stay alive) -> According the the codex it will take 10 years to harvest Earth

Thessia fell faster then Palaven but the planet description for Thessia says that Asari cities are hard for the Reapers to conquer -> Thessia has a lower reaper presence/less Processors than Earth -> we have some guerilla warfare > According to you it will take 3 days to harvest Thessia

I really don't know why you're trying to create a plothole here that simply doesn't exist...but sure, whatever you say.

. Just because every Asari isn't dead doesn't mean the planet is lost.  Earth can still get out news, Palaven isn't post by any stretch, Thessia on the other hand....  There's zero communications, the Asari fleets are in full retreat the planet is lost.  Liara said it, Javik says it, Shepard says it.

So retreating and regrouping is not allowed? You think the lack of communication would be fixed in time as well. Plus the wound was fresh for the main characters so it feels like a bigger loss than it really is.

[Barquiel]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

The Reapers conquer Earth in a matter of hours -> Earth has the highest reaper presence/most Processors -> we have some guerilla warfare (Anderson did say the reapers were focusing on major urban areas at first while at the same time they were pretty much ignoring rural areas, so thats how people managed to stay alive) -> According the the codex it will take 10 years to harvest Earth

Thessia fell faster then Palaven but the planet description for Thessia says that Asari cities are hard for the Reapers to conquer -> Thessia has a lower reaper presence/less Processors than Earth -> we have some guerilla warfare > According to you it will take 3 days to harvest Thessia

I really don't know why you're trying to create a plothole here that simply doesn't exist...but sure, whatever you say.

. Just because every Asari isn't dead doesn't mean the planet is lost.  Earth can still get out news, Palaven isn't post by any stretch, Thessia on the other hand....  There's zero communications, the Asari fleets are in full retreat the planet is lost.  Liara said it, Javik says it, Shepard says it.

So retreating and regrouping is not allowed? You think the lack of communication would be fixed in time as well. Plus the wound was fresh for the main characters so it feels like a bigger loss than it really is.

I am sure he is just straight trolling at this point.

At the beginning of the game, Hackett says he sent the Alliance Second Fleet to their doom to ensure the safe retreats of his other fleets = They're doing great work!

The asari fleets retreat at the end of the war = "the planet is fully dead"

[GreyLycanTrope]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

If Shepard flips this badly when failing a mission, what would happen if Joker beat Shepard in a hand of poker?

What if the Citadel DLC is just an eleborate poker tournament between the characters? We might actually find out.

Maybe MegaSovereign's finally getting his blackjack and hookers. 

We can only hope, just like closure for Aria's couch these are important issues.

[RogueBot]

I thought it was funny, too. Wasn't that after the Kai Leng fight? It's hard to get too immersed or emotional after that cornball show. Maybe that's why I thought it was funny.

Also, they hit us over the head with how "sad" everything supposedly is, that it's nice to get some comic relief. Poor Joker.

Modifié par RogueBot, 14 décembre 2012 - 08:58 .

[PKSovereign]

hurr everybody likes asari durr you should be sad

[jumpingkaede]

J. Reezy wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Shepard felt personally accountable for Thessia

Your shepard perhaps, mine not so much.

Nope yours too.

I don't see why that is the case though.  Not during the game sequence and certainly not now.

I didn't get why Shepard was freaking out.  He didn't even freak out that much post-Vrmire (where he had a direct hand in deciding who lived and who died) or after Horizon (where Shepard and crew were trying to take down the Collector ship and failed leading to countless of deaths).

 We (Shepard) weren't really around when the fighting started on Thessia.  It's not like Shepard had the magic "save Thessia" box in his hands and misplaced it while he was in the men's room.  I didn't even really feel like I was fighting the Reapers on Thessia.

Losing to Kai Leng didn't even cause Thessia to fall.  It at most caused Shepard to lose the possible Galaxy-saving thing but Shepard can still get it back and does.

PKSovereign wrote...

hurr everybody likes asari durr you should be sad

That seemed to be the reason but other than Liara... is there any reason for Shepard to favor the Asari?

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 14 décembre 2012 - 09:15 .

[Barquiel]

jumpingkaede wrote...

I didn't get why Shepard was freaking out.

Why not? Shepard tried to get the Catalyst to save an absolutely massive, untold amount of people (= every asari, human, turian, salarian, volus, etc. in the galaxy.). Billions of lives depend on it.

and then...

Shepard fails to get the Catalyst, our only hope to save all these people. At this moment, Shep has no clue where Kai Leng went and we have no idea how to find him. Sure, we...the players know the game will end 3 missions later, but put yourself in Shepards shoes. Of course she's stressed/feels hopeless...and her breakdown isn't because the reapers invaded Thessia.

Modifié par Barquiel, 14 décembre 2012 - 09:27 .

[BonFire5]

Why does war have to be sad and emotional?

[LinksOcarina]

Also an important point.

Did Shepard ever fail in the series when he was in control?

[jumpingkaede]

Barquiel wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

I didn't get why Shepard was freaking out.

Why not? Shepard tried to get the Catalyst to save an absolutely massive, untold amount of people (= every asari, human, turian, salarian, volus, etc. in the galaxy.). Billions of lives depend on it.

and then...

Shepard fails to get the Catalyst, our only hope to save all these people. At this moment, Shep has no clue where Kai Leng went and we have no idea how to find him. Sure, we...the players know the game will end 3 missions later, but put yourself in Shepards shoes. Of course she's stressed...and her breakdown isn't because the reapers invaded Thessia.

It just seemed out of character.  More in character though also sort of awkward would be for Shepard to start calling in all the favors he can to try and track down Kai Leng.  That means Liara mustering up Shadow Broker resources, tapping Miranda, Jacob, Hackett, Anderson, anyone who has ever had any dealings with Cerberus.  And not breaking down and whinging over.

BonFire5 wrote...

Why does war have to be sad and emotional?

While this is a troll post by you, I will say that by treating ME3 in my current playthrough as a typical war game a la a Call of Duty instead of a space RPG the game becomes much more satisfying and coherent.  100% serious.

LinksOcarina wrote...

Also an important point.

Did Shepard ever fail in the series when he was in control? 

Off the top of my head I thought Vrmire and Horizon were both bigger failures where he was in control.  It is somewhat implied but is it ever expressly mentioned that the Thessia beacon is the ONLY beacon with information on the Crucible?

Is the Crucible a secret project?  It seems to be pretty well-known (to Jahvik, for instance).

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 14 décembre 2012 - 09:34 .

[o Ventus]

thehomeworld wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

If Shepard flips this badly when failing a mission, what would happen if Joker beat Shepard in a hand of poker?

Not a good what if there billions died on Thessia it doesn't compare to losing at poker. Normally people would care if others died while they were attempting to save them and when they fail to save them they would be hard hit.

The joke------



------ Your head

[BonFire5]

jumpingkaede wrote...



While this is a troll post by you, I will say that by treating ME3 in my current playthrough as a typical war game a la a Call of Duty instead of a space RPG the game becomes much more satisfying and coherent.  100% serious.

Not really a troll post. I honestly want to know. The game completely shifts attitudes because suddenly there is a war going on and it really feels like forced emotion. The cover of the game does not show that emotion. It shows something that would be a kin to Rambo III maybe, but with Arnold Schwarzenneger from Commando. An all out space thriller thing that will end with a victory: "Take Earth Back!".

Maybe if they had Shepard sitting down in a profile shot, resting their head on a gun while a dead Alliance crewmate is dead at their feet., I'd understand the sombre tone a bit more. Followed by a tagline: "You Can't Save Everyone". But I'm an idiot.

Modifié par BonFire5, 14 décembre 2012 - 09:42 .

[LinksOcarina]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Off the top of my head I thought Vrmire and Horizon were both bigger failures where he was in control.  It is somewhat implied but is it ever expressly mentioned that the Thessia beacon is the ONLY beacon with information on the Crucible?

Is the Crucible a secret project?  It seems to be pretty well-known (to Jahvik, for instance).

How were Virmire and Horizon failures? Was it due to the losses occured during those fights?

I would say though, that they could have been a LOT worse if Shepard hadn't intervened. For me Shepards involvement in those two sections makes them semi-successful. 

As for that implication, I think you are right. If I remember correctly all of the beacons had specific information in them that had to be decoded in some form to open up. The Thessia beacon was likely the only one to contain Vendetta as a program which had the answer to what the Catalyst is. 

As for the Crucible, it was secret enough to be in the open, but hidden if you weren't looking for it, was always the impression I got. 

[cyrexwingblade]

I agree that 'canon' Shepard is determined by Bioware.

That doesn't mean this was not handled poorly and directly countermanded established themes up to this point after this mission.

My Shepard (yes, mine. She's not the default male shep, so she's already deviating from the start) knows Joker, and knows Edi. She understands what happened. I can swallow her being depressed enough to not pick up the phone, I can even deal with the "...sorry" bit, because my Shep did feel bad for the Asari people after the battle.

She would never have bitten Joker's head off, and very much would have spoken with Edi. She would have been tired, exhausted, her tone a bit distant, but she would have known where they were coming from, and accepted it.

And for the record, my Shep wouldn't have had worse biometric stress during this war than the battle of Torfan. The battle of Torfan defined her character and she actually suffered a psychotic break there. The reaper war is a war, and she knows how to handle it. She knows how to handle loss. It will affect her, but she knows how to handle it.

Having the current conversations as *options* would be valid for the dynamic established for ME gaming. Making it all auto-dialogue was just one of the main symptoms of the deep problem the third game had. It didn't want to be an RPG, it wanted to be a movie. Pick one, and do it right, don't keep jumping ship.

Modifié par cyrexwingblade, 14 décembre 2012 - 09:43 .

[jumpingkaede]

LinksOcarina wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

Off the top of my head I thought Vrmire and Horizon were both bigger failures where he was in control.  It is somewhat implied but is it ever expressly mentioned that the Thessia beacon is the ONLY beacon with information on the Crucible?

Is the Crucible a secret project?  It seems to be pretty well-known (to Jahvik, for instance).

How were Virmire and Horizon failures? Was it due to the losses occured during those fights?

I would say though, that they could have been a LOT worse if Shepard hadn't intervened. For me Shepards involvement in those two sections makes them semi-successful. 

As for that implication, I think you are right. If I remember correctly all of the beacons had specific information in them that had to be decoded in some form to open up. The Thessia beacon was likely the only one to contain Vendetta as a program which had the answer to what the Catalyst is. 

As for the Crucible, it was secret enough to be in the open, but hidden if you weren't looking for it, was always the impression I got. 

In order: 

1. Vrmire is a "failure" because Shepard actually makes the call that leads  to the non-VS death.  It's the first crew death post-Spectre Shepard, and we see that he (logically), like us, doesn't like losing members of his team.  See also Leroy Ah-Jehnnnkins.  The mission itself is a success.

2. Horizon seems to be a failure on both counts.  Shepard is there to stop the Collector abduction.  He is present at or shortly after the abductions have taken place and he has a chance albeit not a very good one to take out the Collector Ship and rescue the Horizon colonists.  That Shepard is unable to do so through no real fault of his own doesn't really change the outcome.  He also sort of loses the VS, which is also a failure because up until then Shepard had a gilded tongue.  I mean seriously.  Basically anyone he wants to convince to join his team just joins.

Anyway, Shepard is instead pretty pragmatic about the whole thing.

"Joker?  Get us out of here, I've had enough of this place."

What did Shepard even do on Horizon?  Lol, the Collectors were leaving.  Did he hasten their departure?  But chalk that up to ME2 being not that well-written either. 

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 14 décembre 2012 - 09:59 .

[LinksOcarina]

jumpingkaede wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

Off the top of my head I thought Vrmire and Horizon were both bigger failures where he was in control.  It is somewhat implied but is it ever expressly mentioned that the Thessia beacon is the ONLY beacon with information on the Crucible?

Is the Crucible a secret project?  It seems to be pretty well-known (to Jahvik, for instance).

How were Virmire and Horizon failures? Was it due to the losses occured during those fights?

I would say though, that they could have been a LOT worse if Shepard hadn't intervened. For me Shepards involvement in those two sections makes them semi-successful. 

As for that implication, I think you are right. If I remember correctly all of the beacons had specific information in them that had to be decoded in some form to open up. The Thessia beacon was likely the only one to contain Vendetta as a program which had the answer to what the Catalyst is. 

As for the Crucible, it was secret enough to be in the open, but hidden if you weren't looking for it, was always the impression I got. 

In order: 

1. Vrmire is a "failure" because Shepard actually makes the call that leads  to the non-VS death.  It's the first crew death post-Spectre Shepard, and we see that he (logically), like us, doesn't like losing members of his team.  See also Leroy Ah-Jehnnnkins.  The mission itself is a success.

2. Horizon seems to be a failure on both counts.  Shepard is there to stop the Collector abduction.  He is present at or shortly after the abductions have taken place and he has a chance albeit not a very good one to take out the Collector Ship and rescue the Horizon colonists.  That Shepard is unable to do so through no real fault of his own doesn't really change the outcome.  He also sort of loses the VS, which is also a failure because up until then Shepard had a gilded tongue.  I mean seriously.  Basically anyone he wants to convince to join his team just joins.

Anyway, Shepard is instead pretty pragmatic about the whole thing.

"Joker?  Get us out of here, I've had enough of this place."

What did Shepard even do on Horizon?  Lol, the Collectors were leaving.  Did he hasten their departure?  But chalk that up to ME2 being not that well-written either. 

Generally it's true that Shepard is all about successes.  Since he is by far the best soldier (re: killer) in the entire galaxy.  I mean, really.  My Shepard has a kill count in the quintuple digits. 

You make good points on both accounts, but in both instances did Shepard fail the mission?  For Virmire its obviously no, they stopped the base and almost got Saren. For Horizion it was too little, too late but they did save half of the colony and they did confirm the collectors involvement, and that the cure Mordin makes works.

For Thessia though it was a complete failure. They didn't get the info on the Catalyst, they didn't stop Cerberus and they couldn't even save most of the original Thessian resistance. For me it was always the first time Shepard failed not because of timing, but because he personally failed himself. 

I agree those two moments in the previous games were big and not something Shepard would let down, but it does feel magnified for Thessia because the entire mission was a disaster. 

[jumpingkaede]

LinksOcarina wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

Off the top of my head I thought Vrmire and Horizon were both bigger failures where he was in control.  It is somewhat implied but is it ever expressly mentioned that the Thessia beacon is the ONLY beacon with information on the Crucible?

Is the Crucible a secret project?  It seems to be pretty well-known (to Jahvik, for instance).

How were Virmire and Horizon failures? Was it due to the losses occured during those fights?

I would say though, that they could have been a LOT worse if Shepard hadn't intervened. For me Shepards involvement in those two sections makes them semi-successful. 

As for that implication, I think you are right. If I remember correctly all of the beacons had specific information in them that had to be decoded in some form to open up. The Thessia beacon was likely the only one to contain Vendetta as a program which had the answer to what the Catalyst is. 

As for the Crucible, it was secret enough to be in the open, but hidden if you weren't looking for it, was always the impression I got. 

In order: 

1. Vrmire is a "failure" because Shepard actually makes the call that leads  to the non-VS death.  It's the first crew death post-Spectre Shepard, and we see that he (logically), like us, doesn't like losing members of his team.  See also Leroy Ah-Jehnnnkins.  The mission itself is a success.

2. Horizon seems to be a failure on both counts.  Shepard is there to stop the Collector abduction.  He is present at or shortly after the abductions have taken place and he has a chance albeit not a very good one to take out the Collector Ship and rescue the Horizon colonists.  That Shepard is unable to do so through no real fault of his own doesn't really change the outcome.  He also sort of loses the VS, which is also a failure because up until then Shepard had a gilded tongue.  I mean seriously.  Basically anyone he wants to convince to join his team just joins.

Anyway, Shepard is instead pretty pragmatic about the whole thing.

"Joker?  Get us out of here, I've had enough of this place."

What did Shepard even do on Horizon?  Lol, the Collectors were leaving.  Did he hasten their departure?  But chalk that up to ME2 being not that well-written either. 

Generally it's true that Shepard is all about successes.  Since he is by far the best soldier (re: killer) in the entire galaxy.  I mean, really.  My Shepard has a kill count in the quintuple digits. 

You make good points on both accounts, but in both instances did Shepard fail the mission?  For Virmire its obviously no, they stopped the base and almost got Saren. For Horizion it was too little, too late but they did save half of the colony and they did confirm the collectors involvement, and that the cure Mordin makes works.

For Thessia though it was a complete failure. They didn't get the info on the Catalyst, they didn't stop Cerberus and they couldn't even save most of the original Thessian resistance. For me it was always the first time Shepard failed not because of timing, but because he personally failed himself. 

I agree those two moments in the previous games were big and not something Shepard would let down, but it does feel magnified for Thessia because the entire mission was a disaster. 

Agreed; and I'm really just giving my thoughts during my playthrough, not trying to be overly critical of anyone else's opinions.

I guess related to what you said is that I didn't really feel like I "personally" failed the mission... because, as I said, my Shepard is a juggernaut on the battlefield... and Kai Leng just kind of sucks.  I mean, c'mon.  One guy + a couple of Cerberus troops + a gunship?   Did Cerberus just forget that I had taken down at least 500 other Cerberus soldiers by that point?  And that's just in ME3.

My VanShep would've made short work of them and my SoldierShep with Defense Matrix is basically invincible. 

I guess that starts straying from storytelling into gameplay, however.

What might've been interesting though probably also controversial/divisive would be to simply have the stress cause Shepard to screw up or fail at more missions.  

I would've had Shepard helping the Asari on Thessia, being overrun, encountering a Reaper; then culminating in Shepard arriving at the Temple after Cerberus has already looted it.  Shepard would then have failed because he was trying to do too much and stretched too thin (consistent with the story) and not because he got beat up by Kai Leng.

[LinksOcarina]

They were trying to build up Leng as Cerberus' ace in the hole against Shepard, someone on his level.

I admit the first time I saw him it worked because it took about six different people intervening to prevent him from killing one person, and he still got Thane in the end.

But after a while it just felt pretty weak to me.

[jumpingkaede]

LinksOcarina wrote...

They were trying to build up Leng as Cerberus' ace in the hole against Shepard, someone on his level.

I admit the first time I saw him it worked because it took about six different people intervening to prevent him from killing one person, and he still got Thane in the end.

But after a while it just felt pretty weak to me.

I had wondered about that.  Because Shepard is clearly the best soldier/fighter/whatever in the galaxy.  And not just nominally either.  Depending on the player he can be anywhere from "much better" than the average soldier to "holymotherof-- better".  I mean, taking down Thresher Maws?  Three-man squad runs through... everywhere and everything?  And if you're a War Hero you almost single-handedly stopped the Skyllian Blitz.

If someone was actually on Shepard's level that would be beyond annoying.  Like... fortification on ME1 Insanity annoying.  

There's no reason to have a "Cerberus Shepard" because Shepard is simply unique and consistently too good to be bested one-on-one.   Which is why having Shepard lose one-on-one required such massive shoehorning and led to so many complaints.