269 réponses à ce sujet

[Draining Dragon]

Just because you found it tasteless or worthy of a reprimand, doesn't mean we all did. I would have been the person MAKING that joke.

[Xilizhra]

"But... everyone LOVES Asari." Nope. I for one wanted to chew out Tevos. I sure as hell wouldn't be apologizing to her. The battle for Earth, and all casualties incurred therein, would never have happened if the Asari government hadn't sat on this beacon so long for their own selfish purposes. It's made all the worse because they were passing judgment on other races for so long, forbidding the hoarding of Prothean artifacts when that's exactly what they were doing.

You have no proof whatsoever that Tevos knew anything until she was informed from afar. You have no cause to blame her.

Just because you found it
tasteless or worthy of a reprimand, doesn't mean we all did. I would
have been the person MAKING that joke.

And some of us believed it deserved a much stronger reprimand, but we didn't get that either. Give and take.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 13 décembre 2012 - 07:00 .

[Steelcan]

Barquiel wrote...

Joker chose his time and his audience completely wrong when he made that joke. I found Shepards reaction too mild.

Joy Sauce wrote...

I would have LOVED the opportunity to confront the asari councillor (them withholding prothean tech should have been a major scandal, but it was never even mentioned again).

Probably because it wasn't Tevos's/Irissa's idea to hide the beacon, and we don't meet the matriarchs who made the decision.

. We should have been able to chew them out.  The Asari government is responsible for continuing the war, and we are just forced to sit there crying for them.

[DeinonSlayer]

LinksOcarina wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I for one wanted to chew out Tevos. I sure as hell wouldn't be apologizing to her. The battle for Earth, and all casualties incurred therein, would never have happened if the Asari government hadn't sat on this beacon so long for their own selfish purposes. It's made all the worse because they were passing judgment on other races for so long, forbidding the hoarding of Prothean artifacts when that's exactly what they were doing.

Here is an important question.

did the plot dictate this, or the story? 

Neither. Shepard could have started in on Tevos, Tevos severs the comm link, Shepard lets out a naughty word, goes back out into the war room and everything goes the same way from there on out. Nothing big story-wise, but it would make all the difference in the world from an RP perspective. It'd save me from having to mash the spacebar all the way through that segment, too.

[Xilizhra]

Steelcan wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Joker chose his time and his audience completely wrong when he made that joke. I found Shepards reaction too mild.

Joy Sauce wrote...

I would have LOVED the opportunity to confront the asari councillor (them withholding prothean tech should have been a major scandal, but it was never even mentioned again).

Probably because it wasn't Tevos's/Irissa's idea to hide the beacon, and we don't meet the matriarchs who made the decision.

. We should have been able to chew them out.  The Asari government is responsible for continuing the war, and we are just forced to sit there crying for them.

They're all dead, and we cry for the world as a whole.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

"But... everyone LOVES Asari." Nope. I for one wanted to chew out Tevos. I sure as hell wouldn't be apologizing to her. The battle for Earth, and all casualties incurred therein, would never have happened if the Asari government hadn't sat on this beacon so long for their own selfish purposes. It's made all the worse because they were passing judgment on other races for so long, forbidding the hoarding of Prothean artifacts when that's exactly what they were doing.

You have no proof whatsoever that Tevos knew anything until she was informed from afar. You have no cause to blame her.

. "An artifact known only to the highest levels of my government". She's the Councilor for the entire Asari race, she knew about it, she's almost as high as the government goes.

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

"But... everyone LOVES Asari." Nope. I for one wanted to chew out Tevos. I sure as hell wouldn't be apologizing to her. The battle for Earth, and all casualties incurred therein, would never have happened if the Asari government hadn't sat on this beacon so long for their own selfish purposes. It's made all the worse because they were passing judgment on other races for so long, forbidding the hoarding of Prothean artifacts when that's exactly what they were doing.

You have no proof whatsoever that Tevos knew anything until she was informed from afar. You have no cause to blame her.

Still wanted to tell her what her government did. I sure as hell wouldn't be apologizing to her.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Joker chose his time and his audience completely wrong when he made that joke. I found Shepards reaction too mild.

Probably because it wasn't Tevos's/Irissa's idea to hide the beacon, and we don't meet the matriarchs who made the decision.

. We should have been able to chew them out.  The Asari government is responsible for continuing the war, and we are just forced to sit there crying for them.

They're all dead, and we cry for the world as a whole.

. Why?  We can slaughter the quarians and not batan eye, we doom the Krogan to extinction, we can murder the last member of a species, we can destroy an entire synthetic race all without being whiney *****. But as soon as the Asari get attacked....

[Xilizhra]

. "An artifact known only to the highest levels of my government". She's the Councilor for the entire Asari race, she knew about it, she's almost as high as the government goes.

She's a representative, not necessarily a decision-maker for asari society itself. Especially as she's under the scrutiny of the whole galaxy and would be a decided security risk.

Still wanted to tell her what her government did. I sure as hell wouldn't be apologizing to her.

Well, I would be sorry that your Shepard is a better person than you, but I find it hard to actually be so. Maybe your Shepard is a better person than I am too.

. Why?  We can slaughter the quarians and not batan eye, we doom the
Krogan to extinction, we can murder the last member of a species, we can
destroy an entire synthetic race all without being whiney *****. But as
soon as the Asari get attacked....

Actually, you don't doom the krogan to extinction, they doom themselves. But it's true, many of those are out of place and clash with any sort of ability to remain actually heroic; "choice" may have gone too far there.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 13 décembre 2012 - 07:05 .

[LinksOcarina]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I for one wanted to chew out Tevos. I sure as hell wouldn't be apologizing to her. The battle for Earth, and all casualties incurred therein, would never have happened if the Asari government hadn't sat on this beacon so long for their own selfish purposes. It's made all the worse because they were passing judgment on other races for so long, forbidding the hoarding of Prothean artifacts when that's exactly what they were doing.

Here is an important question.

did the plot dictate this, or the story? 

Neither. Shepard could have started in on Tevos, Tevos severs the comm link, Shepard lets out a naughty word, goes back out into the war room and everything goes the same way from there on out. Nothing big story-wise, but it would make all the difference in the world from an RP perspective. It'd save me from having to mash the spacebar all the way through that segment, too.

 If it was a plot moment, something unavoidable, its sole purpose is to move the plot forward. If it was a story decision, it would then be changed to dictate the outcome you desired. 

So this was a plot moment that can't be changed because it is moving the plot forward. From a RP perspective what you, the player wants, is irrelevent. If it was a story moment then you can role-play that aspect further to a different outcome, despite it changing nothing but the context of the scene. 

But since the entire arc post-thessis is essentially the Straw that breaks the camels back, its designed to be more somber in that regard.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

. "An artifact known only to the highest levels of my government". She's the Councilor for the entire Asari race, she knew about it, she's almost as high as the government goes.

She's a representative, not necessarily a decision-maker for asari society itself. Especially as she's under the scrutiny of the whole galaxy and would be a decided security risk.
.

. She wouldn't be a councilor if she was a security risk.  Councilor is a huge position. Very important position, she would have to be a high level member of the government to get the job.

[Liamv2]

It was the only moment in the entire series that i wanted to punch joker in the face

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

. Why?  We can slaughter the quarians and not batan eye, we doom the
Krogan to extinction, we can murder the last member of a species, we can
destroy an entire synthetic race all without being whiney *****. But as
soon as the Asari get attacked....

Actually, you don't doom the krogan to extinction, they doom themselves. But it's true, many of those are out of place and clash with any sort of ability to remain actually heroic; "choice" may have gone too far there.

. The Krogan didn't trick themselves into thinking they were saved.

[Linkenski]

I am okay with being forced to pick between two similar dialogue choices at least. I hated how shepard gets all depressed after Thessia. Sure it was tough, but he acted like my shepard never would've.

[BonFire5]

Draining Dragon wrote...

The biggest example is Joker's comment after Thessia. I actually found it very funny, and I wanted to say so. Well, Bioware says "Nope, you need to be a hardass."

Yeah, I really wish there was that option.

Something like, "Too true. We should go".

[Barquiel]

Tevos/Irissa contact Shepard as soon as the matriarchs on Thessia have informed them about the existence of the beacon. That's explicitly stated in the game. Blaming them would be as useful as blaming Liara, Samara or some random asari on the citadel.

[CroGamer002]

Cause it ain't cinematic enough!

[Steelcan]

Barquiel wrote...

Tevos/Irissa contact Shepard as soon as the matriarchs on Thessia have informed them about the existence of the beacon. That's explicitly stated in the game. Blaming them would be as useful as blaming Liara, Samara or some random asari on the citadel.

. Show me.  I only recall her saying that the beacon was known to only the highest levels of Asari government, the councilor is in the highest levels f Asari government

[AresKeith]

AresKeith wrote...

The thing about me is, I wanted to feel for Thessia but I couldn't because the mission was too short to feel anything.

If Bioware added more missions to it like Tuchanka and Rannoch, and/or made it a Hub then I would feel something for Thessia

Or they could have made another option that says "Not now Joker"

[DeinonSlayer]

LinksOcarina wrote...

If it was a plot moment, something unavoidable, its sole purpose is to move the plot forward. If it was a story decision, it would then be changed to dictate the outcome you desired. 

So this was a plot moment that can't be changed because it is moving the plot forward. From a RP perspective what you, the player wants, is irrelevent. If it was a story moment then you can role-play that aspect further to a different outcome, despite it changing nothing but the context of the scene. 

But since the entire arc post-thessis is essentially the Straw that breaks the camels back, its designed to be more somber in that regard.

I don't see how this qualifies. Killing Kai Leng on the Citadel by pulling up when he lands on the hood of the car and letting him get smeared by a passing bridge would have had a plot effect. Whether Shepard apologizes to or antagonizes Tevos doesn't. That's not plot. It's characterization.

You're left in the same situation regardless of what Shepard says. Cerberus has the VI, Shepard needs it back. That simple. Besides, if Shepard can immediately go and tell Liara that she isn't responsible for any of the loss on Thessia, why is Shepard required to? ESPECIALLY a Shepard who may have instigated MULTIPLE GENOCIDES by this point?

[Nightwriter]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

It was a tasteless joke that was supposed to be a tasteless joke. Shepard felt personally accountable for Thessia and snapped when he heard Joker saying the asari might not have gotten near genocided if they hadn't been such skanks. Reaction was understandable.

I have a huge problem with the above. Mac felt that way. I, and by extension Shepard, shouldn't. It drives a wedge between player and character in a role-playing game. More to the point, it's quite possibly hypocritical on Shepard's part. By this point in the narrative, Shepard may have quite intentionally doomed the Krogan, Rachni and Geth. The Quarians can die as a direct consequence of Shepard's actions (neglecting to mention the upload and that they'll only react defensively), and Shepard shrugs it off, blaming them for it. Yet this Shepard gets broken up about, this Shepard claims responsibility for?

This is the only genocide in the narrative that Shepard doesn't instigate!

"But... everyone LOVES Asari." Nope. I for one wanted to chew out Tevos. I sure as hell wouldn't be apologizing to her. The battle for Earth, and all casualties incurred therein, would never have happened if the Asari government hadn't sat on this beacon so long for their own selfish purposes. It's made all the worse because they were passing judgment on other races for so long, forbidding the hoarding of Prothean artifacts when that's exactly what they were doing.

[/rant]

Meh. ME3 was positively awful when it comes to the roleplaying breadth it gives you. No defense of Shepard's reaction could negate or justify that. ME games never gave you as much breadth as you'd like -- the series is littered with moments and lines that I hated but could not avoid -- but in ME3 there is virtually no room for nuance. I am fortunate in that Shepard rarely said anything in ME3 that didn't sit well with me; Shepard and me were on the same relative page with the Joker scene. Others weren't so lucky.

In the case of Thessia, for whatever reason I am supposed to believe the asari have been made nigh extinct and their homeworld is lost. Not sure why, but there it is. This would make for the first species extinction Shepard has been involved in. Confused as I was about the technicals of this supposed extinction, I did appreciate the way it was presented as something of a breaking point for Shepard. Shades of the locker scene. Seemed like that Joker convo was supposed to convey the seriousness of the loss, the gravity of the situation, and Shepard's strain. I believe it's the same conversation where Joker says your suit readings show you're under more pressure than you were in the Skyllian Blitz (or whatever background you picked). I liked it for those reasons.

[LinksOcarina]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

If it was a plot moment, something unavoidable, its sole purpose is to move the plot forward. If it was a story decision, it would then be changed to dictate the outcome you desired. 

So this was a plot moment that can't be changed because it is moving the plot forward. From a RP perspective what you, the player wants, is irrelevent. If it was a story moment then you can role-play that aspect further to a different outcome, despite it changing nothing but the context of the scene. 

But since the entire arc post-thessis is essentially the Straw that breaks the camels back, its designed to be more somber in that regard.

I don't see how this qualifies. Killing Kai Leng on the Citadel by pulling up when he lands on the hood of the car and letting him get smeared by a passing bridge would have had a plot effect. Whether Shepard apologizes to or antagonizes Tevos doesn't. That's not plot. It's characterization.

You're left in the same situation regardless of what Shepard says. Cerberus has the VI, Shepard needs it back. That simple. Besides, if Shepard can immediately go and tell Liara that she isn't responsible for any of the loss on Thessia, why is Shepard required to? ESPECIALLY a Shepard who may have instigated MULTIPLE GENOCIDES by this point?

Who else is going to calm Liara? 

The reason this is a plot moment is because its guiding the actions of the plot for a desired outcome, namely to show Shepard at the lowest point. Antagonizing Tevos doesn't do that, Tevos is a minor character, antagonizing Joker on the other hand can do that, or completely ignoring Liara in her time of need. I found the paragon interrupt in that moment to be more selfish and mission focused, since all you do is remind her of what needs to be done, and not give her a moment to herself, as an example. 

Point is, the plot at this point is to show Shepard at the lowest. If all of a sudden Shepard antagonizes someone he tried to help, especially after such a loss, it would lose a lot of that effect that was being conveyed. Instead it would be steeling resolve right after a major loss with little context other than fueling anger. Empathy over rage, basically. So the story in-between is how you react to everyone else, namely Joker, Javik and Liara, where you can control that to some extant. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 13 décembre 2012 - 07:21 .

[Femlob]

Why was I forced to act so out of character?

Because Mac said so.

[SpamBot2000]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

This is the only genocide in the narrative that Shepard doesn't instigate!

For some strange reason, this made me laugh. Out loud, even.

[AlanC9]

Draining Dragon wrote...

The biggest example is Joker's comment after Thessia. I actually found it very funny, and I wanted to say so. Well, Bioware says "Nope, you need to be a hardass."

Yeah, this one's pretty bad. I had a couple of bad ones in the previous games too, but this one sticks out becausethe joke's pretyt good, and Shepard's never been forced to dislike one of Joker's gags before.

OTOH, this one is awfully crass.

I think I would have been OK with something like a dejected "Nice try, Jeff;" which I think would have been OK for the post-Thessia dramatic intent.

Modifié par AlanC9, 13 décembre 2012 - 07:29 .