269 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Who else is going to calm Liara? 

The reason this is a plot moment is because its guiding the actions of the plot for a desired outcome, namely to show Shepard at the lowest point. Antagonizing Tevos doesn't do that, Tevos is a minor character, antagonizing Joker on the other hand can do that, or completely ignoring Liara in her time of need. I found the paragon interrupt in that moment to be more selfish and mission focused, since all you do is remind her of what needs to be done, and not give her a moment to herself, as an example. 

Point is, the plot at this point is to show Shepard at the lowest. If all of a sudden Shepard antagonizes someone he tried to help, especially after such a loss, it would lose a lot of that effect. So the story in-between is how you react to everyone else, namely Joker, Javik and Liara. 

I don't have a problem with the Liara scene. I have a problem with the Tevos scene. You say it was supposed to show Shepard at his "lowest," and in my estimation, it failed miserably. I don't think changing the Tevos scene to give the option to be antagonistic instead of sympathetic would have detracted from the weight of the situation, it just shows Shepard breaking in a different way, and lets the more renegade among us stay in character. Guess I'm just stuck mashing the spacebar and speculating what could have been...

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 13 décembre 2012 - 07:27 .

[4stringwizard]

Nightwriter wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

It was a tasteless joke that was supposed to be a tasteless joke. Shepard felt personally accountable for Thessia and snapped when he heard Joker saying the asari might not have gotten near genocided if they hadn't been such skanks. Reaction was understandable.

I have a huge problem with the above. Mac felt that way. I, and by extension Shepard, shouldn't. It drives a wedge between player and character in a role-playing game. More to the point, it's quite possibly hypocritical on Shepard's part. By this point in the narrative, Shepard may have quite intentionally doomed the Krogan, Rachni and Geth. The Quarians can die as a direct consequence of Shepard's actions (neglecting to mention the upload and that they'll only react defensively), and Shepard shrugs it off, blaming them for it. Yet this Shepard gets broken up about, this Shepard claims responsibility for?

This is the only genocide in the narrative that Shepard doesn't instigate!

"But... everyone LOVES Asari." Nope. I for one wanted to chew out Tevos. I sure as hell wouldn't be apologizing to her. The battle for Earth, and all casualties incurred therein, would never have happened if the Asari government hadn't sat on this beacon so long for their own selfish purposes. It's made all the worse because they were passing judgment on other races for so long, forbidding the hoarding of Prothean artifacts when that's exactly what they were doing.

[/rant]

Meh. ME3 was positively awful when it comes to the roleplaying breadth it gives you. No defense of Shepard's reaction could negate or justify that. ME games never gave you as much breadth as you'd like -- the series is littered with moments and lines that I hated but could not avoid -- but in ME3 there is virtually no room for nuance. I am fortunate in that Shepard rarely said anything in ME3 that didn't sit well with me; Shepard and me were on the same relative page with the Joker scene. Others weren't so lucky.

In the case of Thessia, for whatever reason I am supposed to believe the asari have been made nigh extinct and their homeworld is lost. Not sure why, but there it is. This would make for the first species extinction Shepard has been involved in. Confused as I was about the technicals of this supposed extinction, I did appreciate the way it was presented as something of a breaking point for Shepard. Shades of the locker scene. Seemed like that Joker convo was supposed to convey the seriousness of the loss, the gravity of the situation, and Shepard's strain. I believe it's the same conversation where Joker says your suit readings show you're under more pressure than you were in the Skyllian Blitz (or whatever background you picked). I liked it for those reasons.

What makes that reaction silly for me was times like during "Arrival" when Shepard doesn't so much as blink when forced to wipe out a whole Batarian colony.  I guess Batarians don't matter much to Shepard.  Yet for Thessia, you're forced to be a pis*y douche to everyone on the ship - except Liara, of course.  You have to be nice to her.  <_<

And I know Liara "just lost her homeworld", but Shepard has had the option to say or do veerrrry callous things to people even after tragedies. 

Modifié par 4stringwizard, 13 décembre 2012 - 07:30 .

[Barquiel]

Steelcan wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Tevos/Irissa contact Shepard as soon as the matriarchs on Thessia have informed them about the existence of the beacon. That's explicitly stated in the game. Blaming them would be as useful as blaming Liara, Samara or some random asari on the citadel.

. Show me.  I only recall her saying that the beacon was known to only the highest levels of Asari government, the councilor is in the highest levels f Asari government

The holovid conversation after Rannoch. "Bla,Bla, I have just received information from the matriarchs on Thessia, Please meet me on the citadel..."

[LinksOcarina]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Who else is going to calm Liara? 

The reason this is a plot moment is because its guiding the actions of the plot for a desired outcome, namely to show Shepard at the lowest point. Antagonizing Tevos doesn't do that, Tevos is a minor character, antagonizing Joker on the other hand can do that, or completely ignoring Liara in her time of need. I found the paragon interrupt in that moment to be more selfish and mission focused, since all you do is remind her of what needs to be done, and not give her a moment to herself, as an example. 

Point is, the plot at this point is to show Shepard at the lowest. If all of a sudden Shepard antagonizes someone he tried to help, especially after such a loss, it would lose a lot of that effect. So the story in-between is how you react to everyone else, namely Joker, Javik and Liara. 

I don't have a problem with the Liara scene. I have a problem with the Tevos scene. You say it was supposed to show Shepard at his "lowest," and in my estimation, it failed miserably. I don't think changing the Tevos scene to give the option to be antagonistic instead of sympathetic would have detracted from the weight of the situation, it just shows Shepard breaking in a different way, and lets the more renegade among us stay in character. Guess I'm just stuck mashing the spacebar and speculating what could have been...

Guess so in the end. Guess so. 

I got to ask, did you do a renegade then paragon interaction with Joker after the fact? Where you yell at him then apologize for what you said later? 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 13 décembre 2012 - 07:35 .

[BonFire5]

4stringwizard wrote...

And I know Liara "just lost her homeworld", but Shepard has had the option to say or do veerrrry callous things to people even after tragedies. 

Reminds me of what Hawke could say to the Viscount after one mission in DAII, "At least it can't get any worse. Not today anyway, it's pretty late".
The Viscount and Aveline dislike that, but at least it was an option there.

[o Ventus]

They wanted Shepard to be more stupid--I mean "human".

[Barquiel]

Nightwriter wrote...

In the case of Thessia, for whatever reason I am supposed to believe the asari have been made nigh extinct and their homeworld is lost. Not sure why, but there it is. This would make for the first species extinction Shepard has been involved in. Confused as I was about the technicals of this supposed extinction, I did appreciate the way it was presented as something of a breaking point for Shepard. Shades of the locker scene. Seemed like that Joker convo was supposed to convey the seriousness of the loss, the gravity of the situation, and Shepard's strain. I believe it's the same conversation where Joker says your suit readings show you're under more pressure than you were in the Skyllian Blitz (or whatever background you picked). I liked it for those reasons.

I don't think you're supposed to believe the asari have been made nigh extinct. I remember that in the leaked script Shepard said 400 million asari died on Thessia...but the line didn't appear in my game (maybe because I don't have Javik and Tali?). 400 million deaths are still not overly funny.

[Nightwriter]

4stringwizard wrote...

What makes that reaction silly for me was times like during "Arrival" when Shepard doesn't so much as blink when forced to wipe out a whole Batarian colony.  I guess Batarians don't matter much to Shepard.  Yet for Thessia, you're forced to be a pis*y douche to everyone on the ship - except Liara, of course.  You have to be nice to her.  <_<

And I know Liara "just lost her homeworld", but Shepard has had the option to say or do veerrrry callous things to people even after tragedies. 

Lawd, is the ME team consistency challenged. From minute one even. From minute one. I don't say callous things so I don't have that problem but yeah.

Anyway with the batarians a few hundreds of thousands died. With Thessia millions died, and there was some question of whether or not there was hope for the species.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 13 décembre 2012 - 07:40 .

[DeinonSlayer]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Guess so in the end. Guess so. 

I got to ask, did you do a renegade then paragon interaction with Joker after the fact? Where you yell at him then apologize for what you said later? 

I've learned that, to keep B****Pants McCrappy Shepard from surfacing in my game, I have to avoid talking to James and EDI until I've completed another assignment. Garrus, Tali and Liara are good. Joker I go upper-right (I don't think it's funny, but the option should have existed for those who do). Anderson, I ignore completely. I prefer to avoid interaction that amounts to picking your flavor of butthurt. I only have one Shepard (not my canon) for whom it would be in-character to **** out the crew.

Tevos is my only major objection. It's not in-character for any of my three Shepards to apologize, and they have very distinct personalities.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 13 décembre 2012 - 07:45 .

[GriM_AoD]

How I missed neutral at times.

Joke - The choice angry or angry wasnt great..
Liara scene - wouldve liked to have been able to convince Tali/Garrus to come with.
Coucellor - apologizing!? Damn. I wish you could confront her

[Dr_Extrem]

well .. thessia is not even lost .. it just shares the same fate as palavan and earth - full scale invasion.

after thessia, i felt more and more disconnected to shepard .. all the pep talk, meetings, lunches, chess play, shooting bottles - not emptying them before time ... all irrelevant, because of thessia? .. a world i have never seen before?

shepard was in a relativly good mood and after thessia, i just wanted to kill the bsoab-kai leng. i was not crushed - i was pissed. sheoard is my avatar - he should be able to express, what i feel - not the writer.

mass effect is not common media, where the playwer is only the observer and follows the plot. we shape the plot and the character. after thessia, the character was more shaped by the writers and less by me. it works for games like pax payne but it is a bad move for a rpg like mass effect.

[Steelcan]

Barquiel wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Tevos/Irissa contact Shepard as soon as the matriarchs on Thessia have informed them about the existence of the beacon. That's explicitly stated in the game. Blaming them would be as useful as blaming Liara, Samara or some random asari on the citadel.

. Show me.  I only recall her saying that the beacon was known to only the highest levels of Asari government, the councilor is in the highest levels f Asari government

The holovid conversation after Rannoch. "Bla,Bla, I have just received information from the matriarchs on Thessia, Please meet me on the citadel..."

. I am now allowed to tell you about this, but I have known for years.

[Joy Sauce]

Barquiel wrote...

Joker chose his time and his audience completely wrong when he made that joke. I found Shepards reaction too mild.

Joy Sauce wrote...

I would have LOVED the opportunity to confront the asari councillor (them withholding prothean tech should have been a major scandal, but it was never even mentioned again).

Probably because it wasn't Tevos's/Irissa's idea to hide the beacon, and we don't meet the matriarchs who made the decision.

It wasn't her fault?
Your point being?

Have you ever worked a service job? People will yell at you for **** that is in no way your fault or that you can do anything about. It's not fair, but it's part of the job. 

The asari councillor no doubt get confronted on a daily basis by the other councillors and ambassadors for the things her government was doing that she had no involvement in. Things that were probably much more minor than concealing prothean technology, especially when the intel could be vital to stopping an intergalactic war, and it's something definitely worthy of confrontation.

[Barquiel]

Joy Sauce wrote...

It wasn't her fault?
Your point being?

That's exactly my point, it wasn't her fault. Do you want to confront Anderson because Cerberus started out as an Alliance black op as well? I don't think so...

[DeinonSlayer]

Barquiel wrote...

Joy Sauce wrote...

It wasn't her fault?
Your point being?

That's exactly my point, it wasn't her fault. Do you want to confront Anderson because Cerberus started out as an Alliance black op as well? I don't think so...

I'd have liked to have the option to, with Hackett - at least asking what the hell was the story there. Same with confronting Legion about the ramifications of the Geth walling off Rannoch's sun, or at least questioning the authenticity and partiality of the footage in the Consensus mission instead of watching AutoShep gobble it up with a spoon. At that moment, the Asari government may damn well have lost the war. Hell yes, I want to challenge them, even if you insist it's by proxy. The option to ask more questions is always better - even if it's an option you wouldn't choose to take. We're only talking about three or four lines of dialogue here.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 13 décembre 2012 - 08:25 .

[Steelcan]

Barquiel wrote...

Joy Sauce wrote...

It wasn't her fault?
Your point being?

That's exactly my point, it wasn't her fault. Do you want to confront Anderson because Cerberus started out as an Alliance black op as well? I don't think so...

. She's the representative of the most powerful and advanced race on the galaxy's most powerful government, she had to have been a high ranking official on the Asari government, it is stupid to think she didnt know about the beacon.

[Joy Sauce]

Barquiel wrote...

Joy Sauce wrote...

It wasn't her fault?
Your point being?

That's exactly my point, it wasn't her fault. Do you want to confront Anderson because Cerberus started out as an Alliance black op as well? I don't think so...

Interesting how you only quoted the part of my post that suits your needs.

MY point was that you don't have to be at fault for wrongdoings to be confronted about them. It happens in real life all the time. People demand answers from the leadership of an organizations for the actions of even the lowest level employees/members. 

Shepard wouldn't be blaming her, s/he'd only be demanding answers. She's the representative for whole asari race, I'm not saying she should be punished for what her government has done, but she should damn well give an explanation. It may not be fair or rational, but confronting her would make sense. 

And if the Alliance had concealed information on Cerberus and Shepard found out about it, your damn right I'd go to whichever senior officer was available, be it Hackett or Anderson, and demand an explanation.

[CronoDragoon]

The answer to this specific OP is: they decided not to include a sociopathic apathetic a-hole answer.

[ref]

Because Mac Walters.

[DeinonSlayer]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The answer to this specific OP is: they decided not to include a sociopathic apathetic a-hole answer.

And if Shepard is a sociopathic, apathetic, shoot-Mordin-in-the-back-and-lie-to-Wrex, watch-Samara-off-herself-and-murder-her-daughter, leave-David-in-Project-Overlord, let-the-Zorya-factory-workers-burn, exterminate-three-races-before-now-and-shrug-them-off A-hole?

I guess Walking Warcrime Shepard has a soft spot for asari. 

[LinksOcarina]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

The answer to this specific OP is: they decided not to include a sociopathic apathetic a-hole answer.

And if Shepard is a sociopathic, apathetic, shoot-Mordin-in-the-back-and-lie-to-Wrex, watch-Samara-off-herself-and-murder-her-daughter, leave-David-in-Project-Overlord, let-the-Zorya-factory-workers-burn, exterminate-three-races-before-now-and-shrug-them-off A-hole?

I guess Walking Warcrime Shepard has a soft spot for asari. 

Although why the hell you would do any of that is just kind of distrubing anyway.

[ManOfSteel]

Enhanced wrote...

You are playing as Shepard, not yourself. You can either be a paragon or renegade version of him. Neither version would think the loss of life is a joke.

This. 

[Tomwew]

MR_PN wrote...

*sigh* i miss the neutral option...

"you said words and i acknowledge those words" god bless you neutral shep.

[Draining Dragon]

DoomHK wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

You are playing as Shepard, not yourself. You can either be a paragon or renegade version of him. Neither version would think the loss of life is a joke.

This. 

Shepard is our character in a roleplaying game. He's supposed to reflect us.

I can easily imagine both a Paragon and a Renegade response that would have agreed with Joker, or at least not been total ****s towards him.

Paragon: "Not now, Joker."

Renegade: "And now they've got a lot more dancers than soldiers."

[BonFire5]

DoomHK wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

You are playing as Shepard, not yourself. You can either be a paragon or renegade version of him. Neither version would think the loss of life is a joke.

This. 

Renegade Shep thrives on murdering the hell out of people.

So, we're not playing an RPG?