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Why was I forced to act so out of character?


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#201
matt-bassist

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AresKeith wrote...

The thing about me is, I wanted to feel for Thessia but I couldn't because the mission was too short to feel anything.

If Bioware added more missions to it like Tuchanka and Rannoch, and/or made it a Hub then I would feel something for Thessia


How about you have to go to Thessia to do 2 or 3 missions while Thessia is still untouched (for a change) and get to actually have another hub world (like you suggested). Maybe you could experience some emotional moments with some Asari like Kuran and Pilot #5 and Liara could beg you to promise her that you won't let Thessia fall...

...THEN you have to go back to get the Catalyst and it all plays out. Kuran and Pilot #5 die, Thessia is wiped out etc.

That would've definitely added far more emotional weight to it for sure.

#202
Guest_Cthulhu42_*

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Yeah, after letting both the rachni and geth die (and getting praised by most for doing so), it was pretty weird when my Renegade Shep started crying about the asari.

Modifié par Cthulhu42, 14 décembre 2012 - 07:37 .


#203
JBPBRC

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

Yeah, after letting both the rachni and geth die, it was pretty weird when my Renegade Shep started crying about the asari.


Especially for renegade sheps who killed the rachni and the geth, then personally shot Mordin in the back, stabbed Legion to death in jolly cooperation with Tali, and tricked the Krogan into thinking they were cured, potentially shooting Wrex down in a bloody confrontation as well.

But the ASARI is what gets him...

#204
Guest_Catch This Fade_*

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EnvyTB075 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Shepard felt personally accountable for Thessia


Your shepard perhaps, mine not so much.

Nope yours too.

#205
KiwiQuiche

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JBPBRC wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Yeah, after letting both the rachni and geth die, it was pretty weird when my Renegade Shep started crying about the asari.


Especially for renegade sheps who killed the rachni and the geth, then personally shot Mordin in the back, stabbed Legion to death in jolly cooperation with Tali, and tricked the Krogan into thinking they were cured, potentially shooting Wrex down in a bloody confrontation as well.

But the ASARI is what gets him...


Gotta mourn that race of the fanbait blue space lesbians even though it was partly their governments fault.

#206
DevilBeast

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I wonder if Joker himself would have wanted more asari commandos, seeing as it was an asari who allegedly killed his sister.

Hmm.... Would have been interesting if that had been a dialog option..

#207
dgcatanisiri

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The thing that stands out to me in the whole situation is the fact that... Just listen to Joker's delivery. He KNOWS he's saying something tasteless. But the jokes have ALWAYS been his coping mechanism. So he just watched a planet burn, he knows that his CO was down there and couldn't stop it from happening, and his father and sister are missing without any word. He NEEDS to do something to cope with all of that, and that's making jokes. And he clearly knows that it's WAY too soon for there to be any humor there, but can't quite help himself. I generally play my Shepards as having a similar sense of humor, of utilizing jokes to deal with whatever they're going through, so, even though they'd think it was in poor taste, they wouldn't tear him a new one for that. Maybe a 'I hope you aren't going to repeat that to Liara, otherwise I'll end up needing a new pilot,' but not the overreaction that there is.

But the galling thing for me about Thessia is how the Reapers are already there when the Normandy arrives. Thessia falling was a given - the length of the Reaper's occupation would be up in the air, but the Reapers had Thessia, and that's all there was to it. There was no way to just boot them off - even if they did get the Catalyst then and there, they'd still have to take it to the Crucible and get it installed. So Thessia would still have been occupied by the Reapers. Then, when Shepard GETS to Vendetta, it takes... what is it, four times for Vendetta to actually answer Shepard about the Catalyst and agree to give up any information about it, instead answering everyone else's questions and basically saying that 'nope, the Reapers are already here, you're doomed, I'm out.'

So, let's look over our list of who is responsible for Thessia falling and the loss of the data from the beacon, in no particular order:
The Reapers for invading in the first place.
Vendetta for backtalking Shepard when he could be giving up the vital information.
The protheans for designing Vendetta to be so obtuse and quick to give up on the 'primitives'.
The matriarchs for hiding this vital piece of technology that could change the course of the war until the eleventh hour.
Kai Leng/Cerberus for showing up when they did.

In the list of responsible parties, Shepard doesn't even rate the top five. Yet regardless, we ALL get a Shepard who blames themselves ("Thessia's fallen and that's on me.") for it, and is openly depressed about it. And it bugs me because as bad as it is to watch a world burn, my Shepards have no connection to Thessia, no reason to take on the blame for what happened to it themselves. Planets have been falling to the Reapers left and right at this point, if Shepard took each of them as a personal failing, there'd be no way that s/he'd be able to function. The loss of Thessia, yes, is sad. But the exact same damn thing is happening across the galaxy. Why does Thessia get Shepard depressed and broken instead of, say Terra Nova, or Palaven, or EARTH?

#208
JBPBRC

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KiwiQuiche wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Yeah, after letting both the rachni and geth die, it was pretty weird when my Renegade Shep started crying about the asari.


Especially for renegade sheps who killed the rachni and the geth, then personally shot Mordin in the back, stabbed Legion to death in jolly cooperation with Tali, and tricked the Krogan into thinking they were cured, potentially shooting Wrex down in a bloody confrontation as well.

But the ASARI is what gets him...


Gotta mourn that race of the fanbait blue space lesbians even though it was partly their governments fault.


And random kids of course. They take priority over ALL of those things. Even cheesecake blue space lesbians.

#209
DevilBeast

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JBPBRC wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Yeah, after letting both the rachni and geth die, it was pretty weird when my Renegade Shep started crying about the asari.


Especially for renegade sheps who killed the rachni and the geth, then personally shot Mordin in the back, stabbed Legion to death in jolly cooperation with Tali, and tricked the Krogan into thinking they were cured, potentially shooting Wrex down in a bloody confrontation as well.

But the ASARI is what gets him...


Gotta mourn that race of the fanbait blue space lesbians even though it was partly their governments fault.


And random kids of course. They take priority over ALL of those things. Even cheesecake blue space lesbians.


Mmmmm.... Blue space babes... Wait.. There was cheesecake??????? 

WHY DIDN´T I KNOW THAT???!!!

I feel cheatedPosted Image

#210
JBPBRC

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DevilBeast wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Yeah, after letting both the rachni and geth die, it was pretty weird when my Renegade Shep started crying about the asari.


Especially for renegade sheps who killed the rachni and the geth, then personally shot Mordin in the back, stabbed Legion to death in jolly cooperation with Tali, and tricked the Krogan into thinking they were cured, potentially shooting Wrex down in a bloody confrontation as well.

But the ASARI is what gets him...


Gotta mourn that race of the fanbait blue space lesbians even though it was partly their governments fault.


And random kids of course. They take priority over ALL of those things. Even cheesecake blue space lesbians.


Mmmmm.... Blue space babes... Wait.. There was cheesecake??????? 

WHY DIDN´T I KNOW THAT???!!!

I feel cheatedPosted Image


As do we all.

As do we all...

#211
Outsider edge

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They tried too force the emotion quite abit in ME3. In movies that quickly descends into Danielle Steel-like tearjerkers because blatently forcing an emotion on viewers can't be done. People see through it too easily. Same goes for storybased videogames in that regard and ME3 especially when it came too the main story-arc fell into the same trap. The little kid that pops up in Shepard's dreams all the time has zero effect on the general viewer/gamer because there was no emotional connection between Shepard and the child too begin with. Thessia could be seen as Shepards breaking point but still there's in most cases no real evidence why it would hit Shepard so hard. Only true reason could be having a Shepard with Liara as LI and her reaction sparking the depression...for the rest of the potential Shepards Thessia is just like Earth/Palaven etc.

Again the main plot of ME3 has alot of issues. From the sudden appearance of the savior doomdevice, too Cerberus being a galaxy-wide army of doom and many more things. One of those things is also the hamfested way too drill in emotional response from players and quite frankly failing completely in that regard.

Modifié par Outsider edge, 14 décembre 2012 - 08:46 .


#212
BonFire5

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EnvyTB075 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Shepard felt personally accountable for Thessia


Your shepard perhaps, mine not so much.


My Shepard wishes they could've pulled a Hawke. "Could've been better. A few of them are still around", or "Well, at least there will be choreoghraphy for the funerals".

#213
Xellith

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Im glad thessia burned. They had it coming. But my shepard felt like crying over it. GG Bioware.

#214
shepard1038

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Outsider edge wrote...

They tried too force the emotion quite abit in ME3. In movies that quickly descends into Danielle Steel-like tearjerkers because blatently forcing an emotion on viewers can't be done. People see through it too easily. Same goes for storybased videogames in that regard and ME3 especially when it came too the main story-arc fell into the same trap. The little kid that pops up in Shepard's dreams all the time has zero effect on the general viewer/gamer because there was no emotional connection between Shepard and the child too begin with. Thessia could be seen as Shepards breaking point but still there's in most cases no real evidence why it would hit Shepard so hard. Only true reason could be having a Shepard with Liara as LI and her reaction sparking the depression...for the rest of the potential Shepards Thessia is just like Earth/Palaven etc.

Again the main plot of ME3 has alot of issues. From the sudden appearance of the savior doomdevice, too Cerberus being a galaxy-wide army of doom and many more things. One of those things is also the hamfested way too drill in emotional response from players and quite frankly failing completely in that regard.


Are you forgetting that Vendetta had the information for what the catalyst is and before Vendetta could say what it was Kai Leng stole it. So Shepard thinks at that point that the galaxy is doomed and that he should have expected Cerberus and that because of him Thessia is lost. So that is pretty much Shepard's breaking point.

Modifié par shepard1038, 14 décembre 2012 - 09:01 .


#215
txgoldrush

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Please.....

Renegade was so poorly written in the first two games, that there was no real definition of a Renegade Shep except for jerk.

And really, in ME1 he was also an idiot and a whiner (did he actually ask if Joker was contagious?....wow...almost a "whats a paladin?" Ultima IX level of stupid there) and in ME2, he is a times a sociopath who enjoyed killing people.

At least in ME3 he actually fits what the Renegade philosphy really stands for....being a realist and doing whats neccessary, not being a jerkass or badass, or in the first game, a ******.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 14 décembre 2012 - 09:01 .


#216
Brovikk Rasputin

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Why was I forced to shoot mercenaries in ME2? That was so out of character for my Shepard, since he always wanted to become a member of the Blue Suns!!!

Stop forcing decisions on to me!!!!!11

#217
JBPBRC

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txgoldrush wrote...

Please.....

Renegade was so poorly written in the first two games, that there was no real definition of a Renegade Shep except for jerk.

And really, in ME1 he was also an idiot and a whiner (did he actually ask if Joker was contagious?....wow...almost a "whats a paladin?" Ultima IX level of stupid there) and in ME2, he is a times a sociopath who enjoyed killing people.


Nowhere near as bad as the Ultima IX "Whats a paladin" line.

A true ME comparision to Ultima IX's awful question would be like Shepard asking:

"What's a Spectre?" or "N7? Who are they?"

#218
Outsider edge

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shepard1038 wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

They tried too force the emotion quite abit in ME3. In movies that quickly descends into Danielle Steel-like tearjerkers because blatently forcing an emotion on viewers can't be done. People see through it too easily. Same goes for storybased videogames in that regard and ME3 especially when it came too the main story-arc fell into the same trap. The little kid that pops up in Shepard's dreams all the time has zero effect on the general viewer/gamer because there was no emotional connection between Shepard and the child too begin with. Thessia could be seen as Shepards breaking point but still there's in most cases no real evidence why it would hit Shepard so hard. Only true reason could be having a Shepard with Liara as LI and her reaction sparking the depression...for the rest of the potential Shepards Thessia is just like Earth/Palaven etc.

Again the main plot of ME3 has alot of issues. From the sudden appearance of the savior doomdevice, too Cerberus being a galaxy-wide army of doom and many more things. One of those things is also the hamfested way too drill in emotional response from players and quite frankly failing completely in that regard.

Are you forgetting that Vendetta had the information for what the catalyst is and before Vendetta could say what it was Kai Leng stole it. So Shepard thinks at that point that the galaxy is doomed and that he should have expected Cerberus. So without the catalyst the crucible can't function.


Doesn't explain the complete mental breakdown of Shepard no. You see it's a character that can be roleplayed and through the trilogy has faced many many hard decisions/potential critical mission failures and never phased as much as he/she did after Thessia. It was an obvious stringpull by writers too get some emotions going just like the hamfested way of including the child in every dreamsequence. With Liara as LI and her reaction things were much more emotional then with some other Shepard. In ME3 emotional effects are made by the characters (Liara's outburst/Wrex's outburst after sabotage/Mordin and more) alot better then the actual situations. Main reason for that is nothing should be able too top Earth for a human Spectre. Who cares about the situation on Palaven/Tuchanka/Thessia etc. Earth has it just as hard and that didn't break Shepard so why should Thessia be the breakingpoint? Not too mention the inclusion of yet another plotdevice (bug on Kai-Leng so he can be tracked) which doesn't make a ton of sense aswell but at least digs the story out of it's hole yet again...

Modifié par Outsider edge, 14 décembre 2012 - 09:11 .


#219
dorktainian

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OP answer = because thats exactly what they wanted for (at the time) unspecified reasons.

#220
Ticonderoga117

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JBPBRC wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Please.....

Renegade was so poorly written in the first two games, that there was no real definition of a Renegade Shep except for jerk.

And really, in ME1 he was also an idiot and a whiner (did he actually ask if Joker was contagious?....wow...almost a "whats a paladin?" Ultima IX level of stupid there) and in ME2, he is a times a sociopath who enjoyed killing people.


Nowhere near as bad as the Ultima IX "Whats a paladin" line.

A true ME comparision to Ultima IX's awful question would be like Shepard asking:

"What's a Spectre?" or "N7? Who are they?"


While that may be a "true" comparison, I think the "This isn't about strategy or tactics, it's about survival." line fits nicely into that Ultima example.

Shepard, who now after two games is a battle scared leader who is acknowledged to be able to lead troops into the jaws of hell and get them out again says THAT line when it's all or nothing?! I mean heck, running away IS a tactic. What does that line mean Shep?!

#221
JBPBRC

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

 What does that line mean Shep?!


Shepard: We fight die or we die! (Which, oddly enough, is identical to Shepard being mad or being mad about Thessia)

Council: That's it? THAT'S OUR PLAN??

To be fair though, everyone has the idiot ball passed around in this game. The Alliance should've *had* a plan prior to this, instead of sitting around like bowling pins waiting for the Reapers to come knock them down.

#222
txgoldrush

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Please.....

Renegade was so poorly written in the first two games, that there was no real definition of a Renegade Shep except for jerk.

And really, in ME1 he was also an idiot and a whiner (did he actually ask if Joker was contagious?....wow...almost a "whats a paladin?" Ultima IX level of stupid there) and in ME2, he is a times a sociopath who enjoyed killing people.


Nowhere near as bad as the Ultima IX "Whats a paladin" line.

A true ME comparision to Ultima IX's awful question would be like Shepard asking:

"What's a Spectre?" or "N7? Who are they?"


While that may be a "true" comparison, I think the "This isn't about strategy or tactics, it's about survival." line fits nicely into that Ultima example.

Shepard, who now after two games is a battle scared leader who is acknowledged to be able to lead troops into the jaws of hell and get them out again says THAT line when it's all or nothing?! I mean heck, running away IS a tactic. What does that line mean Shep?!


And yet, at the beginning, does Shepard know how exactly to defeat the Reapers? Please....what else is he going to say...he is as lost as everyone in the room. Another false accusation of bad writing.

Nevermind the Turians and the Asari tried tactics and strategy, it didn't work.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 14 décembre 2012 - 09:33 .


#223
txgoldrush

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JBPBRC wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

 What does that line mean Shep?!


Shepard: We fight die or we die! (Which, oddly enough, is identical to Shepard being mad or being mad about Thessia)

Council: That's it? THAT'S OUR PLAN??

To be fair though, everyone has the idiot ball passed around in this game. The Alliance should've *had* a plan prior to this, instead of sitting around like bowling pins waiting for the Reapers to come knock them down.


Ummm......the Crucible that Hackett and Liara were working on.

And yet, nothing in ME3 comes close to the idiot Renegade Shep is in ME1. How can a first officer be so uneducated. Another ME1 winner is how he thinks humans got it worse than Krogan and says it to Wrex. Or how he knows jack about the Asari.

"Whats a paladin?' is also optional, doesn't make it less stupid.

#224
Ticonderoga117

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txgoldrush wrote...
And yet, at the beginning, does Shepard know how exactly to defeat the Reapers? Please....what else is he going to say...he is as lost as everyone in the room. Another false accusation of bad writing.

Nevermind the Turians and the Asari tried tactic strategy, it didn't work.


We need a way past thier shields. Do that, and your golden.

Or, "We need to unite with the other races of the Galaxy. We can't do this on our own. With the collective might of the Galaxy, we can beat these Reapers!"

Or, "You bastards had me in lockdown for six months, what the hell do you want? I told you this would happen."

Or, "You are the people who are meant to leade armies or fleets, why don't you come up with something! You grounded me!"

Just about anything is better than basically, "We're going to suck and die because we're going to use tactics from the 1800's to fight Reapers."

Modifié par Ticonderoga117, 14 décembre 2012 - 09:34 .


#225
gw2005

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Can understand reaction, but to do so would completely destroy immersion. Just sayin'