14 réponses à ce sujet

[PsychoBlonde]

 A big problem I had (particularly in Origins, less so in DA2 but still there), was that once I hit level 13 or so, my characters all just had TOO MANY ABILITIES, most of which I wouldn't use because I couldn't remember exactly what they all did.  That, and if I assigned some of them to tactics (like, say, Scythe), it would fubar such commands as "hold position" (warriors would use Scythe and other abilities that caused them to relocate when an enemy was in range even if you told them not to move, it was annoying as crap).

So, for DA3, I'd like to request more upgrades per ability.  They don't have to be DA2 style upgrades where they actually add different functionality to the ability.  It could just be things like "add even more damage" or "adds +1 second to knockdown".  Put 3 stacks for each upgrade instead of just 1.

There are several benefits to this approach:  (numbered list time!!!!)

1.  More differentiation of builds.  Pretty much every character I've played through Origins and DA2 had the same abilities, even when I was intentionally trying to do something different!  This is a big downer for me because most of the reason I replay is to try out a different build combination.

2.  More specialization and value therefrom. Toward the end of the game I was baffled where to put my points because all the new stuff really added was hotbar clutter that I didn't use.  Plus, if I had a couple of trees filled out, my new abilities would SUCK because I wouldn't have any upgrades for them.  I would have happily put those points into further upgrading the 5-6 things I used constantly rather than having to get something where I couldn't even remember what the icon meant.  And, if you want to play a generalist, you still can.

3.  More tactical variation.  If you're a big fire specialist, facing foes with fire resistance is a different sort of challenge.  In Origins and DA2 there was no such thing as a real specialization of this kind--unless you just didn't spend your points, you were going to have gobs of different abilities. 

Just some food for thought.

[Wulfram]

I think DA2 got the number of abilities about right really. I wouldn't want to have less.

More upgrade options might be good, though I'd be concerned that they'd end up being too good to pass up on and thus effectively reduce the number of talents you could take. Or worse, you'd be required to take them to advance to the tree capstone, as was often the case in DA2.

[PsychoBlonde]

Wulfram wrote...

I think DA2 got the number of abilities about right really. I wouldn't want to have less.

More upgrade options might be good, though I'd be concerned that they'd end up being too good to pass up on and thus effectively reduce the number of talents you could take. Or worse, you'd be required to take them to advance to the tree capstone, as was often the case in DA2.

I agree with the requirements in DA2 being even worse than in Origins.  At least in Origins you only had to take a maximum of 3 abilities you didn't really want.  In DA2 sometimes you'd have to take 6 or more.  And what kind of idiocy is it to have a branching tree when you have to take BOTH ENDS of the tree in order to get the capstone ability? If customization is the point shouldn't it be EITHER/OR?  After all, the capstone generally upgraded both sides of the tree, so you're already not getting the "full" benefit from it if you skip that half of the tree.  Why force people to take it ANYWAY?

As for the upgrades being so good that playing a generalist would suck . . . eh.  This is a game tuning issue and not an inherent issue of the system itself.  ANY system is going to need to be tuned in some fashion.  I don't particularly care myself whether the game is tuned toward specialization or generalizing, I just want it to be less boring.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be ABLE to get as many abilities as you had in DA2.  I'm just saying that I'm the type of person who prefers having the option to just focus on 4-6 abilities instead of winding up with 15 of them no matter what I do.  Late in the game, I had less than half of my total abilities on my hotbar, and I upgraded everything I could.  If I have an ability that I NEVER USE, I see this as a waste.  I'd rather use that point to upgrade something that I DO use.

[Anomaly-]

PsychoBlonde wrote...
snip

I completely agree. Skill upgrades were pretty much the only thing I felt was an improvement in DA2. Unfortunately, their design was a bit lacking, but still on the right track.

The funny thing is I'm actually in the process of overhauling all the specializations for my DA:O mod. The goal of which is much the same as implied in your post.

Here is an excerpt from the documentation I'm currently writing:

For me, the two main issues with specializations in DA:O are:

1)  They do not differ quite enough, and;
2)  They do not allow for true specialization.

The first issue is obvious enough, and the solution is to give each specialization a more fleshed out style and feel. The second issue is slightly more complicated. Personally, I like to play many different roles, and one of the things I enjoy doing most is playing a role that has very clear strengths and weaknesses – a true specialist. In DA:O each specialization has only 4 skills. If I want to specialize as an Assassin and I’ve already purchased all 4 skills, what now? I am forced to take other skills, and branch into other “specializations”. In doing so, I am no longer really specialized. In addition, the majority of specialization skills available do not significantly impact the playstyle of that particular specialization, nor offer much variety within it. Therefore, my goal is not only to increase the number of available skills, but to make more clear the strengths and weaknesses of each specialization. For example, an Assassin specializing in Poison making will do very well against humanoids, but struggle with undead and constructs.

To tackle the second issue, there are a variety of paths we might take. I would like to see the number of skills available to each specialization at least doubled, with 3 or 4 times more ideal. Now one option is to simply add all of these skills to the specialization as is, either in the current row format, or with some other pre-requisite system built in (if that’s even possible --  not entirely certain at this point). Another option would be to create additional specializations for each existing specialization, ie: a second tier. For example, an Assassin might branch into an Alchemist – specializing in the creation and applications of poisons; or a Nightblade – specializing in stealth and critical hits. This method has the advantage of overcoming potential pre-requisite issues in the previous method, as well as making each path more defined and independent, with it’s own bonuses available. The obvious drawback is the amount of work involved in coming up with several specialization names and concepts for each already existing one.

Rather than decide on a method now, I will just list skill concepts that may be implemented in whichever way once that decision is made.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 13 décembre 2012 - 10:49 .

[Pzykozis]

Whoa, whoa, whoa no way, there was nowhere near enough abilities to use as a rogue (in particular) in DA2, even slowly utiliising the skills to maximum effectiveness after knowing what spawns when and where results in a large portion of gameplay being auto attack, especially towards the end of the game. It's one of my biggest gripes with the combat in that game.

[PsychoBlonde]

Pzykozis wrote...

Whoa, whoa, whoa no way, there was nowhere near enough abilities to use as a rogue (in particular) in DA2, even slowly utiliising the skills to maximum effectiveness after knowing what spawns when and where results in a large portion of gameplay being auto attack, especially towards the end of the game. It's one of my biggest gripes with the combat in that game.

I haven't said anything about reducing the raw number of abilities, but even on my rogue, I still took almost all of my active abilities off my hotbar because I never used them except when I clicked them by accident.  Given the option, I'd rather upgrade the abilities I do use than have nothing to spend points on but abilities I don't use.  If you'd find that too confining, you'd still be free to buy 15 different abilities if that's what you wanted.

[Pzykozis]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Pzykozis wrote...

Whoa, whoa, whoa no way, there was nowhere near enough abilities to use as a rogue (in particular) in DA2, even slowly utiliising the skills to maximum effectiveness after knowing what spawns when and where results in a large portion of gameplay being auto attack, especially towards the end of the game. It's one of my biggest gripes with the combat in that game.

I haven't said anything about reducing the raw number of abilities, but even on my rogue, I still took almost all of my active abilities off my hotbar because I never used them except when I clicked them by accident.  Given the option, I'd rather upgrade the abilities I do use than have nothing to spend points on but abilities I don't use.  If you'd find that too confining, you'd still be free to buy 15 different abilities if that's what you wanted.

Well its more about the focus I think it should be more towards more abilities that are useful rather than having useless abilities and focusing on upgrading a small set of useful abilities. I'm not against having more upgrades i'd just rather have more (useful) base skills first

[PsychoBlonde]

Pzykozis wrote...

Well its more about the focus I think it should be more towards more abilities that are useful rather than having useless abilities and focusing on upgrading a small set of useful abilities. I'm not against having more upgrades i'd just rather have more (useful) base skills first

I think one problem with the lack of useful base skills is that all combats are pretty much the same combat, so you don't have situational variations in usefulness.  An ability is either always awesome to have, or pointless.

If they vary up combat to a greater degree, then it'll make it easier to create a variety of abilities that are all useful much of the time but not ALL the time, so people will have varying build options and combinations.

[Reznik23]

Pzykozis wrote...

Whoa, whoa, whoa no way, there was nowhere near enough abilities to use as a rogue (in particular) in DA2, even slowly utiliising the skills to maximum effectiveness after knowing what spawns when and where results in a large portion of gameplay being auto attack, especially towards the end of the game. It's one of my biggest gripes with the combat in that game.

Isn't this more a problem caused by cooldown times?

[philippe willaume]

yes and no
For the No
I want my char and the companion to be more than the one trick pony that they were in DA:2
what i like in DA:0 was that through skills and talent I could get the strategy/tactics that suited the team and the terrain.
Ideally I would love talent that create tactical options.

for the yes
even in da:2 and even morte so there are talent that are a waste of space, so if it is required to spend a point to open up another talent. This really should be done by upgrade
as well i would like upgrades to reflect the difference between classes more than the talent them selves.
I E a rogue and warrior can both select dual wielding but the upgrade should be class related.

phil

[Imp of the Perverse]

I thought DA2 was about right, DAO was ridiculous, I remember needing a multiple toolbar mod to make it work. Mass Effect 3 also seems to have gone a step further in making power evolutions change more than just basic stats, though I wouldn't want DA to adopt the mutually exclusive evolutions system.

One thing I'm not too fond of is having to take powers I don't want to get to the powers that I do (though it does occasionally introduce me to interesting stuff I would otherwise have avoided.) Both DAO and DA2 were guilty of this, even if DA2's power trees were a lot more flexible and interesting. If they have to make some powers harder to get, they could just make them cost multiple skill points, and/or raise the level and stat prerequisites.

[Pzykozis]

Reznik23 wrote...

Pzykozis wrote...

Whoa, whoa, whoa no way, there was nowhere near enough abilities to use as a rogue (in particular) in DA2, even slowly utiliising the skills to maximum effectiveness after knowing what spawns when and where results in a large portion of gameplay being auto attack, especially towards the end of the game. It's one of my biggest gripes with the combat in that game.

Isn't this more a problem caused by cooldown times?

Yes and no, there needs to be cooldowns on abilities like assassinate / vendetta due to their effect on combat or the tactical options they provide, of course you can lower the effect each of these has but then assassinate no longer does anything particularly special when in comparison to something like twin fangs. The no is even with short cd's and having the effect nerfed there's still a shortage of variance with viable abilities, things that can stun / knockdown / knockback single targets for rogues (since thats what they seem to be focused on) or otherwise useful tactical effect, the lack of any short range pbaoe even if lower powered due to the warriors focusing on this or a lowered strength quick tactical repositioning of the rogue etc.

I'd love to see something like flicker make a return but that doesn't really solve the problem I guess but with others returning alongside this perhaps dual sweep or punisher. Would certainly help some.

Or as Psycho suggested simply changing up the way the battles themselves go would mean that abilities and the like could be utilised abit differently. I just remember it as a worsening problem as the game got on and in the final sequence running through the gallows it was essentially an excercise of pressing R and having auto attack decimate everything, though that could be a symptom of overuse of superweak mooks.

Modifié par Pzykozis, 14 décembre 2012 - 01:21 .

[Battlebloodmage]

I think it would be nice to be able to specialize in spells like necromancer, bloodmage, or fire mage. Like you can keep invest in the same fire spell, more variety of spells would come up as opposed to just randomly master different spells. A fire mage can invest in fireball first then slowly upgrade to firestorm, meteor, or explosion.

[Plaintiff]

Filament wrote...

What I didn't like about the upgrades was that they were purely upgrades, there was no real room for differentiation per se. Differentiation I would prefer is more like ME3's upgrades (or Bastion's, before anyone has an omg-masseffectification heart attack) where you have mutually exclusive upgrades and you choose which one you want to go with.

I like that idea a lot, actually. I'm playing the ME series for the first time, and I quite like the concept of 'evolving' the talents into one of two or more different forms.

That said, I wish ME had more base skills to choose from. I felt like 1 didn't have enough variety between the different characters and now in 2 and 3 everyone has even less. ME's talent evolution, combined with a similar amount of variety in the base skills that DA2 had, would be pretty much perfect.