152 réponses à ce sujet

[PinkDiamondstl]

Jason..........stop trying to make DA3 more like Skyrim ..

[Madmoe77]

What's jarring and immersion breaking is when a cut scene inadvertently creates a paradox. For example, I land a killing blow in a long fought fight, there is a killing blow animation mechanic and then the cut scene triggers to me making a totally different killing blow leading to a conversation or something else entirely.

This happened several times in DA2 where Hawke or someone in game would cut a head off or explode someone in combat to cut to a scene where they had the death bed speech. It's jarring! This to me defeats the purpose of having 'cinematic' events.

[Plaintiff]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Mystch3vi0us wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

...In ME1, no matter what you do, the bulk of the named characters will survive to the end of the game.

Playable characters (not temporary) in ME1
Garus (lives no matter what)
Tali (lives no matter what)

Kaiden (lives or dies player choice)
Ashley (lives or dies player choice)
Wrex (dies unless you save him via impossible choice)
Liara (lives unless you just never get her then she's percievably dead.)

And if you want to get super technical about it you can just die and that is a literal game end scenereo valid in most games so everyone dies.  What I'm trying to say is that though you percieve ME2 has having more variables it doesn't.  It is in fact more mechanical than ME1.  (step 1) gather characters (step 2) run loyalty mission (step 3) wash rinse repeat (step 4) run final mission.  The combat is more fluid but everything is so compartmentalized that people felt that the ME team turned it into a shooter with rpg elements. 

I think that that is a big part of what the OP is getting at with this post.  I may be wrong, but he doesn't want a compartmentalized corridor (this happened alot in DA:2) followed by a cut scene followed by another corridor and a cutscene.  It's understandable that there have to be limits on the freedom's that the player can take so the giant task given the developers is finding a way to decieve the player into feeling that those boundries arn't there.  It sounds worse than it is. 

I don't perceive ME1 as being any less compartmentalized. The choices you make have no impact on any other missions, or ultimately on the ending. The missions and sidequests are all utterly self-contained and have no impact on how the story ends. The only variable that matters is Shepard's overall Paragon/Renegade score, which can be affected outside of the main story missions, and even then, it's slight. 

ME2's choices have an arguably (I would say obviously) far greater impact, but are still ultimately superficial because there are redundancies in place to make sure the story ultimately stays on track.

DA:O's quests are also quite clearly compartmentalized. Choosing the Werewolves over the Elves, or who will rule Ferelden, for example, does not affect the allegiance of any of the other allied armies, for instance, or the outcome of the final battle. DA2 is practically identical in this respect.

I have no problems with the fact that the games work this way by necessity, and I see no sense in indulging the delusion that any of the choices "mattered" according to the arbitrary parameters set by others. I do not find DA2 or ME2 any less immersive than their counterparts, and even if the impact of choice was lesser, it is not the sole factor in immersion and there were several technical problems that I had with ME1 that prevented me from becoming immersed in the story, which ME2 improves on vastly.

It's not what's done, but the way that it's done. As I've said earlier the fact that you can explore worlds in ME:1 for example just makes you feel more as if you are actually in space and exploring. You can pick it apart all you want but just play the game and feel the vibe which you get from it - ME:2 feel processed, ME:1 feels well crafted and cared for.

You and I apparently have very different ideas of what a well-crafted game looks like.

I have played ME1, just last week. It's obviously outdated and even accounting for that, I still find it incredibly shallow.

[JasonPogo]

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

Jason..........stop trying to make DA3 more like Skyrim ..

Wait what?

[SpunkyMonkey]

Plaintiff wrote...

You and I apparently have very different ideas of what a well-crafted game looks like.

I have played ME1, just last week. It's obviously outdated and even accounting for that, I still find it incredibly shallow.

That's fair enough, I still totally love it after 3 full play-through's, but each to their own.

[Mystch3vi0us]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

You and I apparently have very different ideas of what a well-crafted game looks like.

I have played ME1, just last week. It's obviously outdated and even accounting for that, I still find it incredibly shallow.

That's fair enough, I still totally love it after 3 full play-through's, but each to their own.

You're not alone.  My roomate and I have played the ME1 a combined total of 7 or 8 times.  ME1 is amazing with a complex and interesting story.  The graphics are dated as hell but I still play PSX and PS2 games from time to time.  If a game is good enough it doesn't matter. 

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

I want a balance between the two. If I want a completely non-cinematic gaming experience I'll go play something like Skyrim which has no cutscenes (or much in the way of compelling storytelling).

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

JasonPogo wrote...
...our totaly awesome voice acting...

Sarcasm I assume. Actually the voice-acting for FemShep, Hawke, and LadyHawke were all quite good. I  never felt pulled out of those games for a second by the voice-acting. What it seems you want is a silent protagonist like the ones in Bethesda RPGs that have absolutely no personality to speak of and therefore give you the illusion of really being in control of their personality just because you can go where you like, steal what you want, and kill who you please (which is not entirely accurate; to those Skyrim equals TOTAL freedom types out there, have you ever tried killing an important NPC, like that nob Ulfric Stormcloak during the course of the game?).

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 14 décembre 2012 - 04:11 .

[upsettingshorts]

Mystch3vi0us wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

You and I apparently have very different ideas of what a well-crafted game looks like.

I have played ME1, just last week. It's obviously outdated and even accounting for that, I still find it incredibly shallow.

That's fair enough, I still totally love it after 3 full play-through's, but each to their own.

You're not alone.  My roomate and I have played the ME1 a combined total of 7 or 8 times.  ME1 is amazing with a complex and interesting story.  The graphics are dated as hell but I still play PSX and PS2 games from time to time.  If a game is good enough it doesn't matter. 

What on Earth is complex about Mass Effect 1's story?

It's a chase movie in game form where you have the option to abandon the chase and explore empty planets with different color palettes.  

Seriously though this thread has come up nine millions times.  The conclusion is always the same:  BioWare has been making games that have inched closer and closer towards a cinematic gaming experience (yes, those things are compatible if you like them, if you don't, they arent) pretty much since forever, and whether or not game X or Y crossed a point of no return for you personally isn't going to change that.  There are people who bailed long before you, and people who might bail later.  But I'm pretty sure BioWare is gonna keep making the games it wants to make.

Keep up awareness if you wish, and there's nothing wrong with that, but this is a trend that has existed for a long time now.  There are also plenty of us who get it and enjoy it.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 décembre 2012 - 04:18 .

[Bob Garbage]

Agreed OP. This approach to RPGs has been done to attract casual fans, and slowly RPGs have turned into linear adventure hack and slash/shoot em up nonsense. With EA at the helm it's hard to imagine them truly making an RPG game for gamers. Ever again.

[upsettingshorts]

Bob Garbage wrote...

Agreed OP. This approach to RPGs has been done to attract casual fans, and slowly RPGs have turned into linear adventure hack and slash/shoot em up nonsense. With EA at the helm it's hard to imagine them truly making an RPG game for gamers. Ever again.

And like those other nine million threads, this is where I or someone else points out we've been playing BioWare games since BG1 and embrace cinematics.  Shocking, I know, but it's true.

It's almost as if gamers have different tastes and preferences and "casual" is a convenenient, undifferentiated slur.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 décembre 2012 - 04:30 .

[Allan Schumacher]

This happened several times in DA2 where Hawke or someone in game would cut a head off or explode someone in combat to cut to a scene where they had the death bed speech. It's jarring! This to me defeats the purpose of having 'cinematic' events.

Did this actually happen? I am pretty sure the game didn't actually have decapitations, but I'd be surprised if a critical NPC was ever actually "chunked" (to use the term I used in BG) in combat and is then fine in a subsequent cutscene. Can you give any examples?

[ElitePinecone]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
"chunked"

This is a wonderful, wonderful word.

[upsettingshorts]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
"chunked"

This is a wonderful, wonderful word.

Heh, and if you recall what critical hit deaths looked like in BG1, an entirely appropriate word.

[mopotter]

I like a little cinematic in the game, but I don't want it to overtake everything.

I liked the cinematic where Shepard and team are running out of the ruins after saving Liara. I don't like cinematics where my character is talking to one team member, which seemed to happened in ME3 a lot. Don't mind cinematics where NPC's are talking together, that's interesting to me, but I really want my character to say what i want them to and it may be a fine line for them to walk but they have done it before, so hopefully they will keep it to a minimum.

[Allan Schumacher]

Heh, and if you recall what critical hit deaths looked like in BG1, an entirely appropriate word.

It never ceased to make me laugh either. What's that Drizzt? Need my help killing some gnolls? Sure.

*Chunk* *chunk* *chunk*

Okay I guess I'll just stand here as you obliterate everyone...

[frankf43]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This happened several times in DA2 where Hawke or someone in game would cut a head off or explode someone in combat to cut to a scene where they had the death bed speech. It's jarring! This to me defeats the purpose of having 'cinematic' events.

Did this actually happen? I am pretty sure the game didn't actually have decapitations, but I'd be surprised if a critical NPC was ever actually "chunked" (to use the term I used in BG) in combat and is then fine in a subsequent cutscene. Can you give any examples?

First off I like the cinimatics so I'm not agree that point.

When I played a warrior I didn't only decapitate some Dark Spawn I cleaved the at the waist. I thaught it was rather cool my self.

[mopotter]

Islandrockzor wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Bioware's focus has always been on telling a story. It might have variable permutations, but there are always fxed plot points. There have to be. If you don't want to or "can't" roleplay within their set parameters, then I don't know what to tell you.

I don't understand why it has to be all or nothing with some people. Why not just accept that "roleplay" is a fluid concept that means different things to different people, and that role-playing games operate on a sliding scale where freedom may range from limited to expansive?

There are choices I would like that are unavailable to me and likely always will be. I think it would be interesting to roleplay a character who is on the autism spectrum, or is blind, or is missing a limb, but even in games like Skyrim that offer a lot of freedom, I do not have the freedom to roleplay that sort of character, for practical reasons. It doesn't suit their story, just like it doesn't suit the story of DA2 or DA3 for the protagonist to be something other than human.

KOTOR says hi. The Light/Darkside last planet+endings were vastly different.

 Love that game.  Still play it once in awhile.  

[Emzamination]

I dunno bruh... I just picked up final fantasy xiii at my local gs a few days ago and right now as i'm in the middle of it, I can't say it hasn't crossed my mind that bioware games don't have enough cinematics. Hell the cinematics are so great, I've just ordered the sequel before finishing the first. I vote more cinematics.

Modifié par Emzamination, 14 décembre 2012 - 04:49 .

[mopotter]

Mystch3vi0us wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

You and I apparently have very different ideas of what a well-crafted game looks like.

I have played ME1, just last week. It's obviously outdated and even accounting for that, I still find it incredibly shallow.

That's fair enough, I still totally love it after 3 full play-through's, but each to their own.

You're not alone.  My roomate and I have played the ME1 a combined total of 7 or 8 times.  ME1 is amazing with a complex and interesting story.  The graphics are dated as hell but I still play PSX and PS2 games from time to time.  If a game is good enough it doesn't matter. 

Definitely not alone.  I've been playing ME1 since it came out and while I enjoy ME2 also, story wise ME1 pulls me in every time.  I liked that picking up Liara last had different dialogue than when you picked her up first.  This is the kind of thing I would like to see in future games.   And I had options in who I picked up.  I'd like options in picking my companions in DA3.

[upsettingshorts]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

I want a cinematic gaming experience!

If only there was a developer that made such games...

I'd like to introduce you to a company named Square Enix, my friend. And a group of games called Final Fantasy.

You may have heard of them.

Here's the thing.

It's not like it's a strict dichotomy.  It's a Godilocks problem. 

BioWare has a mix that I like.  It would be possible for them to go too far in either direction (FF being one of them) for me.  That other people believe they've already gone too far isn't really my problem, it's just the nature of the beast.  We all like what we like and find games that deliver it to us.

[Mark of the Dragon]

The two can work well together in my opinion as long as its executed well.
I loved ME3 and it had cinematics. I likes some of the scenes in DA2 as well. RPG's and cinematics do NOT have to be mutually exclusive as long as the cinematics come second to the RPG style gaming.
I do however agree that in some cases they could be used less.I will never understand why the DA team wasted resources making a cinematic sequence for killing the High Dragon in DA2. It absolutly was not necessary.
So use them less and better and we will be good.

[mopotter]

Emzamination wrote...

I dunno bruh... I just picked up final fantasy xiii at my local gs a few days ago and right now as i'm in the middle of it, I can't say it hasn't crossed my mind that bioware games don't have enough cinematics. Hell the cinematics are so great, I've just ordered the sequel before finishing the first. I vote more cinematics.

Would rather not.  I have played some FF games that I liked, but FFXIII - I started, got half way through and didn't finish it.  Cinematics were very pretty but I like rpg games where I make decisions and have some small control over the story.