152 réponses à ce sujet

[Bob Garbage]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Bob Garbage wrote...

Agreed OP. This approach to RPGs has been done to attract casual fans, and slowly RPGs have turned into linear adventure hack and slash/shoot em up nonsense. With EA at the helm it's hard to imagine them truly making an RPG game for gamers. Ever again.

And like those other nine million threads, this is where I or someone else points out we've been playing BioWare games since BG1 and embrace cinematics.  Shocking, I know, but it's true.

It's almost as if gamers have different tastes and preferences and "casual" is a convenenient, undifferentiated slur.

Nothing wrong with cinematics. There is something wrong with them if they trump the role playing elements though. Comparing how cinematics were used in BG/Neverwinter Nights era Bioware with DA2 and ME3 is just silly. And being a casual gamer is not a bad thing at all, but Bioware games used to reward the nerdy gamer who liked to explore the depth of the gameplay/story, now they sort of seem more focussed on rewarding players new to their games. Like that 'hard to find area with some sweet loot' is just basically 'on the way' to whatever the quests location is, easy to find and on the map. It takes away from... replay value.

[Emzamination]

mopotter wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I dunno bruh... I just picked up final fantasy xiii at my local gs a few days ago and right now as i'm in the middle of it, I can't say it hasn't crossed my mind that bioware games don't have enough cinematics. Hell the cinematics are so great, I've just ordered the sequel before finishing the first. I vote more cinematics.

Would rather not.  I have played some FF games that I liked, but FFXIII - I started, got half way through and didn't finish it.  Cinematics were very pretty but I like rpg games where I make decisions and have some small control over the story. 

I'm not entirely sure but I heard they introduced a story choice system with multiple endings in ff xiii-2.

[upsettingshorts]

Bob Garbage wrote...

Comparing how cinematics were used in BG/Neverwinter Nights era Bioware with DA2 and ME3 is just silly.

Directly?  Yeah.

But BG->BG2->NWN->KOTOR->JE->ME->DAO->ME2->DA2->ME3?

Not at all.  It's been an incremental process.  At each point along the way, there have been folks who have decided some change that we who are still here regard as simply part of how BioWare does things now was a step too far.  

Bob Garbage wrote...

And being a casual gamer is not a bad thing at all, but Bioware games used to reward the nerdy gamer who liked to explore the depth of the gameplay/story, now they sort of seem more focussed on rewarding players new to their games. Like that 'hard to find area with some sweet loot' is just basically 'on the way' to whatever the quests location is, easy to find and on the map. It takes away from... replay value.

It's possible to be "hardcore" or "nerdy" about different things. 

It takes away from -your- replay value.  Which isn't the same thing.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 décembre 2012 - 05:10 .

[abaris]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's possible to be "hardcore" or "nerdy" about different things. 

It takes away from -your- replay value.  Which isn't the same thing.  

If things get too nerdy it's easy for the casual to skip something. It's impossible for the nerdy to play something that isn't on the disk to begin with.

And that's the problem with todays games. They cater to the lowest common denominator.

[Rawgrim]

The DA games arn`t really that "bad" when it comes to cutscenes. ME3, however, was really bad. The cutscenes looked fantastic, of course, but they also took alot away from the gameplay. Mostly i ram around shooting about 10 people that dropped from the sky (hello DA2), and then watched a 2-5 minute cutscene of sorts. The first time i played the game, I didn`t really mind too much, but in the second playthrough i noticed it alot. Especially during the missions with Tali and the quarians. Most of those had a sense of urgency about it. Needed to stop the reapers very quickly before they destroyed a planet or whatever. and Shep just took alot of "brakes" to talk to people for a prolonged time in 10-20 cutscenes. The feeling of being in a hurry disapeared fast. Add auto-dialogue into the mix, and it felt like i was watching a movie. Not playing a game.

It was pretty much: Kill some enemies to get to the next part of the movie.

[ObserverStatus]

Bioware games definitely need to be more cinematic. My problem is, sometimes when I'm playing a game I get bored and think, "this sucks, I'd rather be watching a movie right now". Some games like Resident Evil 5 and Metroid Other M are constatnly willing to indulge me, that must be why they were so much better than their predecessors. Also, Bioware should make the cutscene unskippable, or at least harder to skip because I don't want to skip them on accident.

[Emzamination]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I'm not entirely sure but I heard they introduced a story choice system with multiple endings in ff xiii-2.

Not really--in fact, it's really funny: there's one canon ending, with CGI and all, but there are about 7 paradox endings. The thing is, ALL of them result in destruction. They vary in their content, whether it's funny, or serious, but none of them actually changes the ending.

The best part is, after you unlock them all (and collect every one of a particular item in the game), you get a "true" ending, where--well, I won't spoil it.

Suffice to say XIII-2 was one of the best stories I've seen where the main characters

*SPOILERS*



*END*

But, to reply to your comment, not really.

Now I'm REALLY curious Can't wait to play

Thanks for putting up spoilers tags allowed me to avert my eyes before page load

[caradoc2000]

Mystch3vi0us wrote...

Liara (lives unless you just never get her then she's percievably dead.)

You have to pick up Liara in ME1.

[Rawgrim]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Mystch3vi0us wrote...

Liara (lives unless you just never get her then she's percievably dead.)

You have to pick up Liara in ME1.

i think you can leave her in the statis thingy, or chose not to do that mission at all. You get the Vermire quest after you have done two out of 3 main missions.

[upsettingshorts]

Rawgrim wrote...

caradoc2000 wrote...

Mystch3vi0us wrote...

Liara (lives unless you just never get her then she's percievably dead.)

You have to pick up Liara in ME1.

i think you can leave her in the statis thingy, or chose not to do that mission at all. You get the Vermire quest after you have done two out of 3 main missions.

Offtopic:

But you don't know where to go after the Mu Relay. 

You have to pick up Liara even if you wait till after Virmire.  Then she mind scans you and puts all the pieces together to tell you that the relay leads to Ilos.

Liara is plot critical.  

Also it's hilarious to wait that long to pick her up.  Not only has she gone mad, but you've killed her mom and solved the mystery of her entire life's work, and drop a bombshell that you'll be going to a place she never fathomed was real. 

As Fenris would say, "It's a lot to take in."

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 décembre 2012 - 05:44 .

[Fredward]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

I want a cinematic gaming experience!

If only there was a developer that made such games...

I'd like to introduce you to a company named Square Enix, my friend. And a group of games called Final Fantasy.

You may have heard of them.

Here's the thing.

It's not like it's a strict dichotomy.  It's a Godilocks problem. 

BioWare has a mix that I like.  It would be possible for them to go too far in either direction (FF being one of them) for me.  That other people believe they've already gone too far isn't really my problem, it's just the nature of the beast.  We all like what we like and find games that deliver it to us.

Eh, may I point out that I was being scathingly sarcastic in that post? Just sayin. xp

But yeah, I play Bioware's games because I like Bioware's games. They do something no other developer does. I don't see the point of hyperanalyzing it.

I have my life to hyper examine.

[Plaintiff]

Emzamination wrote...

I dunno bruh... I just picked up final fantasy xiii at my local gs a few days ago and right now as i'm in the middle of it, I can't say it hasn't crossed my mind that bioware games don't have enough cinematics. Hell the cinematics are so great, I've just ordered the sequel before finishing the first. I vote more cinematics.

FF XIII is one of my favourite games ever, but I really didn't like XIII-2 at all. I just hate the protagonists so much.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 14 décembre 2012 - 06:52 .

[mopotter]

Emzamination wrote...

mopotter wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I dunno bruh... I just picked up final fantasy xiii at my local gs a few days ago and right now as i'm in the middle of it, I can't say it hasn't crossed my mind that bioware games don't have enough cinematics. Hell the cinematics are so great, I've just ordered the sequel before finishing the first. I vote more cinematics.

Would rather not.  I have played some FF games that I liked, but FFXIII - I started, got half way through and didn't finish it.  Cinematics were very pretty but I like rpg games where I make decisions and have some small control over the story. 

I'm not entirely sure but I heard they introduced a story choice system with multiple endings in ff xiii-2.

 That might be interesting.  Thanks I'll check it out.

[mopotter]

bobobo878 wrote...

Bioware games definitely need to be more cinematic. My problem is, sometimes when I'm playing a game I get bored and think, "this sucks, I'd rather be watching a movie right now". Some games like Resident Evil 5 and Metroid Other M are constatnly willing to indulge me, that must be why they were so much better than their predecessors. Also, Bioware should make the cutscene unskippable, or at least harder to skip because I don't want to skip them on accident.

Well, for me, none of the games you mentioned are ones I am interested in playing.  I tried RE and got really tired of the movie parts.  If I wanted to watch a movie, i'd watch Tank Girl.  I play BW games for the dialogue choices, characters and the story.    So,   I'll say please BW, no to anything like RE5 or Metroid.  

[mopotter]

PurebredCorn wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

 Also it's hilarious to wait that long to pick her up.  Not only has she gone mad, but you've killed her mom and solved the mystery of her entire life's work, and drop a bombshell that you'll be going to a place she never fathomed was real. 

As Fenris would say, "It's a lot to take in."

And you reduce the number of fainting spells she has... it's all win!

One of my favorite parts in ME1.  I picked her up at different times in each play through.  I would LOVE something like this in DA3, or in any other BW game.

[frostajulie]

DA2 and ME3 were complete onlooker games with 0 RPG ability. The story was good but it was not an RPG DAO, ME1 and even IMO ME2 were really good RPGs that had a satisfying amount of story and really created the illusion of choice a million times better than DA2 and ME3 which is why for me these games have so much replayability and longevity because even when the story plays out the same way it still feels like my story. DA2 and ME3 do not do that. Not at all, and thats why even while they are ok games for the genre they suck balls when held up against Biowares previous works.

[Twisted Path]

The disconnect between cutscenes and gameplay has always been pretty prominent in Bioware games but it was especially jarring in DA2 and Mass Effect 3. In the game you're an unstoppable whirling dervish of destruction, then you run into a cinematic and watch your character stand around while the a villain monologues or you get incapacitated in a cheesy way.

The other day I actually playing DA2, during the Qunari attack on Kirkwall, and ran into a scene like this. I had just wiped out a bazillion Qunari including one of their wizards who my rogue just about insta-killed with two special attacks in a row. As soon as I killed the wizard a cut scene pops up where another, identical wizard appeared and magically incapacitated my whole party. He's looming over you and the Knight Commander lady makes her first dramatic appearance and kills him. I guess the scene was supposed to make you think that the Knight Commander was big and tough and awesome because she saved you or something but the disparity between effortlessly killing a bunch of these enemies in a row and then being incapacitated by one made the whole scene just feel silly.

Another example of this would be Commander Shepard always forgetting that she has biotic powers during cinimatics and becoming a soldier armed with the generic assault rifle (even if you never use it.)

Then on the other side of things you get characters having insane super powers in their introductory cutscenes to show you how cool they are (Jack and Talis come to mind,) that are way beyond what they can actually do as companions.

It would be nice (and more immersive,) if more thought was put into connecting gameplay and cinematics. Maybe just some little things, like making finishing move animations that start when a character scores the final hit on a boss and continue into a cutscene, or having objects that you press a button to vault over and it sometimes segs into you jumping into a new area in a cutscene. Another important thing would be never showing a character use an ability in a cutscene that they can't use in the actual gameplay and having options open up in cutscenes if you have certain abilities. Alpha Protocal did this really well, there were little points in the game (usually purely aesthetic,) where having a high tech skill meant you did stuff that normally a techy NPC would do, or having high martial art skills made the way you beat someone up in a cutscene a lot more painful looking.

Little things like that would make gameplay and cutscenes flow together better, I think. That and just remembering how the gameplay works as the story is being designed.

[LinksOcarina]

EntropicAngel wrote...

frostajulie wrote...

DA2 and ME3 were complete onlooker games with 0 RPG ability. The story was good but it was not an RPG DAO, ME1 and even IMO ME2 were really good RPGs that had a satisfying amount of story and really created the illusion of choice a million times better than DA2 and ME3 which is why for me these games have so much replayability and longevity because even when the story plays out the same way it still feels like my story. DA2 and ME3 do not do that. Not at all, and thats why even while they are ok games for the genre they suck balls when held up against Biowares previous works.

roleplaying isn't about story choice.

For some people it is.

But thats why we have shallow definitions of preference and a number of people presuming BioWare does one thing over another just as much as say CD Projekt Red. 

[abaris]

EntropicAngel wrote...

roleplaying isn't about story choice.

If it isn't about story choice, it has to be about character choice. Both can be destroyed by badly made cutscenes offering a canon you didn't play, but which you have to witness as a helpless bystander.

And I daresay, if there aren't choices involved the whole purpose of an RPG is lost. Then it's a simple adventure game.

Modifié par abaris, 14 décembre 2012 - 08:45 .

[LinksOcarina]

abaris wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

roleplaying isn't about story choice.

If it isn't about story choice, it has to be about character choice. Both can be destroyed by badly made cutscenes offering a canon you didn't play, but which you have to witness as a helpless bystander.

And I daresay, if there aren't choices involved the whole purpose of an RPG is lost. Then it's a simple adventure game.

Not exactly.

In gaming parlance, adventure titles is going through a story with a basic progression, usually highlighted by either moving the plot forward, surviving a level or two, or given a weapon that can be used in future levels to solve puzzles in the way of the protagonist.

Legend of Zelda is a perfect example, as the progression is mostly linear because of the item aquisition, versus the exploration aspect which is a bonus. 

The purpose of an RPG depends on your definition of an RPG, wheras an Adventure Game's purpose is pretty clear. For RPGs because we have so many different sub-genre's that people adhere to (sometimes foolishly)  its impossible to pigeon-hole what its purpose is. The level progression in Dragon Age II, the character building for combat optimization, the story, exploration of the world, choices and consequences, dungeon crawling, loot gathering, all of these are just a singular aspect of a Role Playing Game. 

So for you, if there is no story or choice that can be manipulated, its no an RPG it seems. Cinematics don't fully destroy that though because in the end the plot of the game is fixed, you are just changing the texture of the story through pre-determined choices. It can make it jarring, however, and that is a problem that BioWare has to work on it seems. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 14 décembre 2012 - 08:54 .