26 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow Warior]

Should a skill upgrade have a cost?
 
In DA2 all or most upgrades were advantageous, meaning that upgrading your ability was a no brainer. However I was thinking that if there was a small drawback by acquiring a upgrade it will make the choice more difficult and give the player pause as to which upgrades if any to take. 
 Example:  

Fireball
10 damage;  Radius 5m; Cooldown 10s; 20 mana cost
Upgrade 1
+10 damage;  +10 mana cost
Upgrade 2
Radious 10m; Cooldowm +10s
Fireball all upgrades
20 damage; Radius 10m; Cooldowm 20s; mana cost 30

What do you think?


I claim no ownership over this idea, the devs can use it if they so wish.

[Fast Jimmy]

Diablo 2 did this. As have many other games, so I'm not sure the devs are worried about stealing a copyrighted idea of anything.


That being said, I don't like it. I am spending a skill point to upgrade the skill. I am forgoing other skills and bonuses, like the various "mastery" skills which give damage/cost bonuses, so I am already paying a penalty - not having other skills or bonuses. I am also not unlocking more skills in the tree, which could be a limitation for unlocking other bonuses/skills.

DA2 penalizes you plenty by choosing to upgrade a skill. Thing is, its almost a requirement to upgrade certain skills, if only to get the Cross-class-Combo ability with them.

Adding longer cooldowns or costs only leads to two things:

1) Mana Bloat, where you just wind up having to increase the amount of mana your character has anyway to keep pace with the expected increase cost to your spells, which defeats the point

2) Kiting, where you just run around in circles while you wait for your Uber-skill's cooldown to get over.

Neither of which encourage smart or better leveling or combat.

[Shadow Warior]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Diablo 2 did this. As have many other games, so I'm not sure the devs are worried about stealing a copyrighted idea of anything.


That being said, I don't like it. I am spending a skill point to upgrade the skill. I am forgoing other skills and bonuses, like the various "mastery" skills which give damage/cost bonuses, so I am already paying a penalty - not having other skills or bonuses. I am also not unlocking more skills in the tree, which could be a limitation for unlocking other bonuses/skills.

DA2 penalizes you plenty by choosing to upgrade a skill. Thing is, its almost a requirement to upgrade certain skills, if only to get the Cross-class-Combo ability with them.

Adding longer cooldowns or costs only leads to two things:

1) Mana Bloat, where you just wind up having to increase the amount of mana your character has anyway to keep pace with the expected increase cost to your spells, which defeats the point

2) Kiting, where you just run around in circles while you wait for your Uber-skill's cooldown to get over.

Neither of which encourage smart or better leveling or combat.

Point well made, I felt that the disclaimer was necessary since some people are, well not like me.

I agree with you, the mastery and the point requirements were bad, still I think there should be some hard choices when you spend your points on an upgrade. Because once you got the upgrade and the combo, all,was great

Modifié par Shadow Warior, 14 décembre 2012 - 04:42 .

[frankf43]

why would you want penalties? It seems a bit masochistic to me.

[Shadow Warior]

frankf43 wrote...

why would you want penalties? It seems a bit masochistic to me.

To add a little complexity, the system is too simple. you just upgrade and your stronger faster etc, there is no choice

[toto2300]

Shadow Warior wrote...

frankf43 wrote...

why would you want penalties? It seems a bit masochistic to me.

To add a little complexity, the system is too simple. you just upgrade and your stronger faster etc, there is no choice

That's like the whole point. So when you're fully upgraded you feel like a real hero and badass.

[caradoc2000]

From the lore perspective, skill upgrades mean that over time and practice, you have become more adept at using that skill. Penalties would contradict this notion.

Note that this isn't a statement for or against the idea, rather an observation.

[Shadow Warior]

toto2300 wrote...

Shadow Warior wrote...

frankf43 wrote...

why would you want penalties? It seems a bit masochistic to me.

To add a little complexity, the system is too simple. you just upgrade and your stronger faster etc, there is no choice

That's like the whole point. So when you're fully upgraded you feel like a real hero and badass.

perhaps you're right, still there should be something that makes people pause before upgrading

[daft inquisitor]

It makes more sense in games where the only limit to upgrade is being able to purchase it. Then, it actually makes it a conscious choice to upgrade, instead of forcing you to choose one good/bad option over another.

It does work for some games, but DA isn't one of them. As someone said, the disadvantage to choosing one skill is already there -- you have a VERY limited ability pool, and taking one means giving up another. I think that's fine, I think that's perfect. There's no truly good reason to change that, IMO.

Modifié par ShadowDragoonFTW, 14 décembre 2012 - 05:18 .

[Shevy]

I like this idea. For example you could give your twohander warrior these two upgrades:
+ bigger hit radius
- lesser accuracy

or

+ more damage
- smaller hit radius

So, your warrior is your only aoe damage dealer ? Upgrade his hit radius and try to find items with bonus accuracy. (at a cost of other stats)

Or your warrior should be a single target damage dealer for the bigger enemies? Upgrade the second and try to maximize his strength.

It would be a good way to build your characters the way you want to use/ need to use them in combat.

Only upgrading without a cost ( except the used skillpoint) was boring in DA II.

Modifié par Shevy_001, 14 décembre 2012 - 05:36 .

[Dabrikishaw]

Final Fantasy 2 reduced certain attribute points if you raise others, but that would be a bad idea in this game

[daft inquisitor]

Shevy_001 wrote...

I like this idea. For example you could give your twohander warrior these two upgrades:
+ bigger hit radius
- lesser accuracy

or

+ more damage
- smaller hit radius

So, your warrior is your only aoe damage dealer ? Upgrade his hit radius and try to find items with bonus accuracy. (at a cost of other stats)

Or your warrior should be a single target damage dealer for the bigger enemies? Upgrade the second and try to maximize his strength.

It would be a good way to build your characters the way you want to use/ need to use them in combat.

Only upgrading without a cost ( except the used skillpoint) was boring in DA II.

There's aleady a way to do that. The different weapon styles in DA2 had different effects. There were trees for 2H Warrior that were about AOE, some that were about focused damage... heck, every weapon style (except maybe S&S) was like that. There's your choice. Choose which tree you want to plod around in. There, done. No need to complicate it and annoy people by making some abilities increase one stat and decrease another...

[Plaintiff]

Shadow Warior wrote...

frankf43 wrote...

why would you want penalties? It seems a bit masochistic to me.

To add a little complexity, the system is too simple. you just upgrade and your stronger faster etc, there is no choice

But there is a choice. It's impossible to acquire all the skills in DA2, you are automatically making sacrifices every time you choose one skill and not another. Proficiency in one area costs you the ability to be proficient in a different one.

[Battlebloodmage]

I would hate that. Alternatively, I would like for them to do a branching tree in which they could implement some of what you see, like you could choose either an upgrade to radius or power or special ability added to the basic power.

[Anomaly-]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
That being said, I don't like it. I am spending a skill point to upgrade the skill. I am forgoing other skills and bonuses, like the various "mastery" skills which give damage/cost bonuses, so I am already paying a penalty - not having other skills or bonuses. I am also not unlocking more skills in the tree, which could be a limitation for unlocking other bonuses/skills.

I agree, the "penalty" should be in the form of making hard choices where skills/upgrades are concerned. Where this system failed was in some choices being clearly superior to others, ie: Cross class combos. If I'm faced with a choice between -5 cooldown and +300% damage when stunned (which my warrior does all the time anyway), that choice becomes a no-brainer. If there is no meaningful choice to be made, there is no longer any strategy here. The game becomes balanced around those CCCs, which defeats the purpose of making that choice in the first place.

Where I agree with the OP is when it comes to specializations. To specialize in certain areas is to neglect other areas. I'd like to see that better represented in specializations.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 14 décembre 2012 - 06:47 .

[Wulfram]

Not keen on penalties, but making some upgrades mutually exclusive might help make decisions more challenging.

Modifié par Wulfram, 14 décembre 2012 - 06:51 .

[Pzykozis]

Wulfram wrote...

Not keen on penalties, but making some upgrades mutually exclusive might help make decisions more challenging.

Yeah, go with as someone mentioned in a different thread ME3's style of upgrades in that you choose from a coupe of options when you upgrade it, not only do you specialise according to your playstyle but you're making a mutually exclusive choice to boot.

[Todd23]

Shadow Warior wrote...

toto2300 wrote...

Shadow Warior wrote...

frankf43 wrote...

why would you want penalties? It seems a bit masochistic to me.

To add a little complexity, the system is too simple. you just upgrade and your stronger faster etc, there is no choice

That's like the whole point. So when you're fully upgraded you feel like a real hero and badass.

perhaps you're right, still there should be something that makes people pause before upgrading

They have that.  It's other skill-trees.

[vortex216]

An upgrade that has penalties...I think thats an oxymoron. Anyways, if you want a gamer to have to think about their next upgrade, why not lock another out when you choose one?

Modifié par vortex216, 14 décembre 2012 - 09:16 .

[In Exile]

Wulfram wrote...

Not keen on penalties, but making some upgrades mutually exclusive might help make decisions more challenging.

Like say,  BM/SM? I can feel a thousand powergamers cry out in agony...

[Shadow Warior]

Todd23 wrote...

They have that.  It's other skill-trees.

Sure, but upgrading a skill is the smart choice unless you like pushing  tones of buttons, it was mentioned above that if some upgrades were as usefull as others or as a new skill, this lack of choice that I'm barking about would be nonexistent.
All this will be a thing of the past once a better system/solution presents itself. LIke the mutually exclusive upgrades idea that was also mentioned above.

Modifié par Shadow Warior, 15 décembre 2012 - 09:30 .