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[IntoTheDarkness]

I don't understand his intention behind the premeditated betrayal, as the writer David Gaider confirmed.

He *claims* he didn't want Orlaisian involvement with the blight. As a result of his betrayal..

-he let half the fereleden soldiers get annahilated in the valley of Ostega
-he can't even deal with the darkspawn as they atttack the capital city Denerim
-on top of that Cailen did not even officially ask Orlaisian for help yet
-even if the war war is won Orlai would just take over devastated Ferelden.
-he comdemmed Gery Wardens. There goes their support.
-weak legitimacy gives foreign rulers a justification of war, thanks to people suspecting him of the betrayal and nobles divided.

So his motives is NOT the same as what he claims unless he is really stupid. (he is not a very briliant character, anyway)

Even if he betrayed out of greed, it doesn't make sense either because he chose the worse time to betray the king. I'm amazed nobles did not instantly comdemn him as a trailor even when they knew his withdrawal from the battle was very suspicious.




I have two theories to explain his reasons.


1. I think Loghain was forced to betray the king because of Howe's action. Howe is a right-hand man of Loghain and his deforcement of the highever castle could have left Loghain with no other choice than to kill the king and assume an untouchable position even if his and Howe's betrayal were revealed. In this case Howe intentionally *used* Logain to raise in the rank. He dragged Logain into the betrayal. However this theory is not very likely because it was never implied the Logain was a pawn of Howe in larger picture. It was quite the opposite.


2. Loghain ordered Howe to take over Highever, and he sought to betray the king before the battle ever strated. He didn't have a chance to kill the king until the last moment so he had to kill him during the final battle. However this is not really plausible either because in the process he let half the fereden force die which is really, really stupid.

3. Logain didn't foresee the danger darkspawn threat poses. He shared Cailen's view that this was just one large raid, since no Archdemon was spotted. BUT, there was no reason to believe the threat was temporary. Darkspawn numbers were increasing to the point they outnumbered Ferelden forces despite their 3 consecutive defeats. Grey Wardens, while he was not fond of them, claimed that this is a true blight. How could he be so ignorant to ignore their warnings and decide to neglect the threat?


So all my theories are not likely truths.



I love DA:O but I can't help but feel that his action was one of the dumbest betrayals I've ever seen in fictions. I really don't understand why he betrayed Cailen, risking his own nations doom at the seasonable time of darkspawn invasion.






The witcher 1 spoiler below

[spoilers]

Look at Jacques de Aldersberg from the witcher and his rebellion. It is something very well thought out to the contrary of Logain's betrayal.

http://en.thewitcher...cques-vs-letho/

"He used the help of Redanian intelligence and their funds to found the
Order of the Flaming Rose for his own secret agenda. He engineered the
theft of Witcher secrets via his pawn Salamandra. He indirectly
provoked the Vizima uprising to create the chaos necessary for his rise
to power. He exploited Adda turning against her father and later turned
her into a striga to strike at Foltest's legitimacy. All these actions
are those of an accomplished chessmaster, capable of manipulating and
creating events to further his vision."

Compared to him Logain seems really umplausible and somewhat unintelligent with his actions...

[/spoilers]

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 14 décembre 2012 - 05:42 .

[caradoc2000]

Don't forget that Cailan was cheating on Loghain's daughter.

[IntoTheDarkness]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Don't forget that Cailan was cheating on Loghain's daughter.

Are you referring to the novel? I didn't read them; and I think with the game being the pioneer of DA world it should have explained it in the game.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 14 décembre 2012 - 05:49 .

[caradoc2000]

No, I'm referring to the Return to Ostagar DLC - specifically the secret correspondence between Empress Celene and Cailan.

[IntoTheDarkness]

caradoc2000 wrote...

No, I'm referring to the Return to Ostagar DLC - specifically the secret correspondence between Empress Celene and Cailan.

Oh, I didn't play that DLC yet. But is it a reason sufficient to lead his nation, the very one he himself helped founded, to a foreseeable doom?

[caradoc2000]

At the very least the correspondence confirms that Cailan was indeed seeking Orlesian help.

As to the "doom" of Ferelden, the impression I got from Loghain in the game was that he did not believe that this was an actual Blight.

[IntoTheDarkness]

caradoc2000 wrote...

At the very least the correspondence confirms that Cailan was indeed seeking Orlesian help.

As to the "doom" of Ferelden, the impression I got from Loghain in the game was that he did not believe that this was an actual Blight.

that's my point no.3. there were not sufficient reasons to dismiss the darkspawn threat.

And as aforementioned in the thread, I think there was a better way to avoid Orlaisian intervention than letting half the Ferelden force perish by darkspawn and shyly laying themselves naked before the invading darkspawn and possible Orlaisian invasions . Lohgain's action only gave Orlai more chances to invade Ferelden after the blight.

If darkspawn threat was nothing as he believed - than Ferelden didn't need Orlai's aid. The threat would be over before Cailen officially asks Orlai for help. If they were really as dangerous as Grey Wardens claimed to be, than Cailen would have eventually died in the battle and Lohgain could have all ferelden forces incorperated into his army with legitimate reasons, without betraying the king and weakening Ferelden.

Either way his reasons behind the betrayal is really absurd.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 14 décembre 2012 - 06:19 .

[caradoc2000]

The impression I got from Loghain that he believed that this was a marauding band of darkspawn which could be defeated in proper order without:
a) Cailan's "heroic antics",
Gray Wardens, and
c) most certainly without Orlesian intervention, which he vocally objects to even in his rant at the Landsmeet

Yet when Cailan insisted on attacking the darkspawn, Loghain saw a convenient opportunity to get rid of Cailan while pinning the blame on the Gray Wardens.

In the first post-Ostagar cutscene you can see him stating that the Ferelden army needs to be regrouped and the darkspawn defeated. Would an experienced general really have been that confident had Ferelden just lost a significant portion of its army?

Modifié par caradoc2000, 14 décembre 2012 - 06:21 .

[Blazomancer]

Loghain abandoned Cailan because that was the strategically sound decision. The darkspawn horde was too large than they had supposed it would be. Cailan would have died anyway, rushing to his side would have meant the slaughter of Loghain, Cauthrien and the remaining force of ferelden. And Ferelden would have been left defenseless.
Cailan had actually asked for Orlesian help as the documents in RTO suggests. Loghain didn't know about that, so betraying Cailan because of the Anora-Cailan-Celene triangle is implausible.
On a sidenote, Loghain is actually a brilliant character. Without him, Maric wouldn't have survived, Cailan and Alistair wouldn't have been born, and the warden would have been born in an Orlesian occupied Fereldan. There goes the DAO plot down the drain.
And Loghain's suspicious attitude towards Orlesians is somewhat justified. They have been driven out just 30 years ago, and who knew they weren't out there for revenge. Similarly the Grey Wardens were about to be relieved by their backup from Orlais, and Loghain probably didn't want to trust anything that had Orlesian attached to it. Of course the few grey wardens that we encounter throughout the games seem politically neutral, but Loghain had no way to know that. That was the reason why he outlawed the wardens. Loghain hated Orlais as much as he loved Ferelden. There is no question of greed or stealing the throne. Although it can be speculated or even debated that his hatred has taken form of Paranoia. He would have gone to any length for Ferelden's protection. But I wonder if he'd have come up with the idea of hiring the crows or dealing with slavers on his own. As anora put it, these are surely Howe's masterwork. Though it's true that Loghain could not be forgiven for supporting Howe's stupidities. Probably he believed that these will help him save Ferelden. As a strategist, he usually used his head rather than heart as is evident in the stolen throne. End justifies the means must have been his motto. But of course, Loghain's crime was not the abandoning of Cailan in Ostager, but acting as a catalyst to instigate the civil war by taking part in Howe's schemes rather than trying to unite the land. Probably he deserved his death in the final landsmeet duel although it's sad. A death for loving his country so fanatically that he was oblivious to what's right and what's wrong.

[IntoTheDarkness]

caradoc2000 wrote...

The impression I got from Loghain that he believed that this was a marauding band of darkspawn which could be defeated in proper order without:
a) Cailan's "heroic antics",
Gray Wardens, and
c) most certainly without Orlesian intervention, which he vocally objects to even in his rant at the Landsmeet

In the first post-Ostagar cutscene you can see him stating that the Ferelden army needs to be regrouped and the darkspawn defeated. Would an experienced general really have been that confident had Ferelden just lost a significant portion of its army?

Duncan makes it clear that Darkspawn forces outnumber Ferelden's despite 3 great victories by Ferelden. This only adds evidences to the greater darkspawn threat Logain did not see for some reason. At least he must have known that withdrawing in the heat of battle would sacrifice half the army of Ferelden, only making Orlai's invasion even more probable and the darkspawn threat greater even if it were not a blight but a large maruading. Cailen's heroic action does not have anything to do with the outcome of the battle as his death will only strengthen Lohgain's grip to the power, and Ferelden could have emerged victorious if he had not withdrawn his army in Ostigar.

a) Cailan's heoric antics is irrelevent in the outcome of the battle
, c) he didn't need grey wardens and Orlesians so he plotted to annihilate the half of his own army? Brilliant.



I don't really expect 100% rationalism behind Lohgain's actions. I wouldn't be surprised it it were writers' oversight.

[IntoTheDarkness]

[my thought]

Blazomancer wrote...

Loghain abandoned Cailan because that was the strategically sound decision. The darkspawn horde was too large than they had supposed it would be. Cailan would have died anyway, rushing to his side would have meant the slaughter of Loghain, Cauthrien and the remaining force of ferelden. And Ferelden would have been left defenseless.
Cailan had actually asked for Orlesian help as the documents in RTO suggests. Loghain didn't know about that, so betraying Cailan because of the Anora-Cailan-Celene triangle is implausible.

[It was Loghain who proposed the strategy. Cailen only wanted to fight at the front line which Loghain didn't agree, but the strategy itself was devised by Loghain, the most experience commander in Ferelden.]



On a sidenote, Loghain is actually a brilliant character. Without him, Maric wouldn't have survived, Cailan and Alistair wouldn't have been born, and the warden would have been born in an Orlesian occupied Fereldan. There goes the DAO plot down the drain.

[But he was beyond stupid in Ostigar. Senility?]



And Loghain's suspicious attitude towards Orlesians is somewhat justified. They have been driven out just 30 years ago, and who knew they weren't out there for revenge. Similarly the Grey Wardens were about to be relieved by their backup from Orlais, and Loghain probably didn't want to trust anything that had Orlesian attached to it. Of course the few grey wardens that we encounter throughout the games seem politically neutral, but Loghain had no way to know that. That was the reason why he outlawed the wardens. Loghain hated Orlais as much as he loved Ferelden. There is no question of greed or stealing the throne. Although it can be speculated or even debated that his hatred has taken form of Paranoia. He would have gone to any length for Ferelden's protection. But I wonder if he'd have come up with the idea of hiring the crows or dealing with slavers on his own. As anora put it, these are surely Howe's masterwork. Though it's true that Loghain could not be forgiven for supporting Howe's stupidities. Probably he believed that these will help him save Ferelden. As a strategist, he usually used his head rather than heart as is evident in the stolen throne. End justifies the means must have been his motto. But of course, Loghain's crime was not the abandoning of Cailan in Ostager, but acting as a catalyst to instigate the civil war by taking part in Howe's schemes rather than trying to unite the land. Probably he deserved his death in the final landsmeet duel although it's sad. A death for loving his country so fanatically that he was oblivious to what's right and what's wrong.

[He didn't need Orlesian if he had not volunteerly sacrificed the half of Ferelden army in the battle strategy of which he made before the battle. He acted against logical reasonings. If he had believed he could defeat darkspawn with 50% of Ferelden army and nobles divided in a civil war, he surely should have been able to defeat *supposely nothing* Darkspawn threat with the full strength army at Cailen's command, who wants to fight in the front but will still listen to Logain's battle plans; and then Orlai would have no reasono to intervene and grey wardens would have no reason to stay by King's side.]

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 14 décembre 2012 - 06:41 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

According to Gaider, it was less premeditated murder (as IntoTheDarkness seems to interpret it) than a decision not to fight a battle he didn't think he could win. Gaider also says that abandoning those soldiers was always a plan B, and that he didn't go in expecting to use it. Gaider attempts to leave it open to audience interpretation whether Loghain's decision was sound, but from the look of the darkspawn column, Loghain made the right move. Said column stretches past the horizon. The idea was to flank the darkspawn, but the darkspawn flank would probably still have been miles away.

[IntoTheDarkness]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

According to Gaider, it was less premeditated murder (as IntoTheDarkness seems to interpret it) than a decision not to fight a battle he didn't think he could win. Gaider also says that abandoning those soldiers was always a plan B, and that he didn't go in expecting to use it. Gaider attempts to leave it open to audience interpretation whether Loghain's decision was sound, but from the look of the darkspawn column, Loghain made the right move. Said column stretches past the horizon. The idea was to flank the darkspawn, but the darkspawn flank would probably still have been miles away.

Please direct me to his post! I'm a story freak and I need to read the author's elaboration.



Your explanation that Logain saw no chance in the battle makes more sense than the premeditated betrayal, because in the latter I absolutely saw no sound reasonings behind his actions.

However, shouldn't he have opposed the king with more objections, if he was being *dragged* into the battle he thought he had no chance? The game did nothing to imply he foresaw his defeats before the battle, but rather he underestimated darkspawn which is how most gamers myself included interpreted the situation. If he foresaw his defeat- in other words, if he knew about the blight threat, he needed grey wardens more than ever. All previous blights were defeated by grey wardens and Logain had no reasons to believe himself capable of defeating the blight unless he underestimated the blight - which then means that he didn't foresee his defeat. It's a logic circulation error.

Even if your explanation is true, Loghain made Orlai invasion more probable by his betrayal which was done to prevent Orlai from helping them in the first place. An unexhausted ally during a war could turn into a predator after the war -> so his reasonings are still heavily flawed.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 14 décembre 2012 - 07:01 .

[Blazomancer]

Yes, Loghain strategised the battle and it was a sound strategy to channel the darkspawn into the narrow pass. But as I mentioned, the darkspawn horde was too large than that was planned for. If there were any hint of success in that battle, Loghain would have reinforced. And i guess, Loghain wished Cailan remain step away from the frontlines, because of having sensed that they might need to withdraw. A good general knows when to withdraw, & sacrifice some soldiers to buy time for the others to escape and bolster their ranks again so that the fight can go on. I know it's evil, but war is evil and sacrifices are to be made. And on top of that, it's no normal man to man combat. It's the darkspawn with mighty ogres that can sweep a portion of the battlefield on it's own. You can't really blame loghain for not knowing what to expect from the horde when the last blight took place four centuries ago. Even then the battleplan was sound and probably would have worked if the darkspawn would not have arrived in such a number. If you chat with Loghain at camp, he mentions this - he knew how much he lost at ostagar, he knew each soldier personally, where they came from. If the battle could have been won, he would have fought till his last breath.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

http://social.biowar...dex/583297&lf=8

The "betrayal" was meant to not get him and his men killed. And while Gaider doesn't come out and say this, I'm pretty sure charging would only have made it more likely Orlais would have invaded. The same trouble would have occurred if he had charged that occurred as a result of his not charging, only moreso because the majority of the country seems to have fallen in line behind Loghain. (He'd already won the civil war by the time the Landsmeet arc starts.)

As for not fighting at Ostagar... he thought Ferelden was going to win, at first. Everyone thought that except the Wardens, and even the Wardens were more nervous than doomsaying. Nobody realized there'd be a several mile long advancing darkspawn swarm. Loghain did of course realize it was only going to get harder, though not to that extent, and he came to terms with the fact that he might have to abandon the decoy force meant to draw the spawn in. That's why he tried to talk Cailan into not being part of that force. Judging by Cailan's tone of voice when he dismisses Loghain's last attempt, Loghain had been getting pretty annoying about it, which is all he can legally do.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 14 décembre 2012 - 07:20 .

[caradoc2000]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

Your explanation that Logain saw no chance in the battle makes more sense than the premeditated betrayal, because in the latter I absolutely saw no sound reasonings behind his actions.

However, shouldn't he have opposed the king with more objections, if he was being *dragged* into the battle he thought he had no chance?

As I see it, he only realized it was an unwinnable battle when he actually saw the darkspawn horde, by which time he and Cailan were already at their separate places.

[IntoTheDarkness]

Blazomancer wrote...

Yes, Loghain strategised the battle and it was a sound strategy to channel the darkspawn into the narrow pass. But as I mentioned, the darkspawn horde was too large than that was planned for. If there were any hint of success in that battle, Loghain would have reinforced. And i guess, Loghain wished Cailan remain step away from the frontlines, because of having sensed that they might need to withdraw. A good general knows when to withdraw, & sacrifice some soldiers to buy time for the others to escape and bolster their ranks again so that the fight can go on. I know it's evil, but war is evil and sacrifices are to be made. And on top of that, it's no normal man to man combat. It's the darkspawn with mighty ogres that can sweep a portion of the battlefield on it's own. You can't really blame loghain for not knowing what to expect from the horde when the last blight took place four centuries ago. Even then the battleplan was sound and probably would have worked if the darkspawn would not have arrived in such a number. If you chat with Loghain at camp, he mentions this - he knew how much he lost at ostagar, he knew each soldier personally, where they came from. If the battle could have been won, he would have fought till his last breath.

I don't think the battle plan was particulariy brilliant. They should have utilized the fortress next to the bridge which would have provided a high ground that can be used to their advantage agaisnt Darkspawn's siege weapons. -> however talking about the strategy will be digressing, so I will refrain from this topic.

So you are saying that Logain went into the battle with good intentions(possibly sensing that he might need to betray the king in the worst case scenario), and as the battle progressed against his plans he decided to pull back and abandon the king to salvage the remaining half of Ferelden forces?

1. Darkspawns outnumbered Ferelden forces despite 3 big losses in previous battles. Did Logain not see that the darkspawn number could be overwhelming in the next battle? At least I can see one plausible reason behind his actions - he recklessly wanted to finish the war before Orlai had a chance to send *reinforcements*. But as experienced as he is, he should have seen the answer to this sequence riddle- it was totally exptected that the darkspawn would eventually outnumber humans by many folds and it was only a matter of time before that happened. Why didn't Loghain expect that to happen in that particular battle?

2. Is there a proof supporting your interpretations of Lohgain's stance in the war? I would very much like to know if he really inteded to win the battle before he realized the victory has slipped away and decided to abadon the king.

Anyways, you made good points. The interpretation that Lohgain wanted to win the battle but changed his mind when he saw it was impossible to win is something I didn't think of before. If there are proofs or the implication within the game to support that claim, it makes Lohgain's actions reasonable.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 14 décembre 2012 - 07:21 .

[Blazomancer]

That's the thing. You can't really blame loghain for understimating or overestimating the darkspawn horde unified by the archdemon. Even the grey wardens of that generation wouldn't completely know what a blight-time horde looks like. Note that the deep roads ds are usually disorganized and scattered, and not a proper representation of the horde led by the intelligence of an old god.
And i think he would have accepted the help of grey wardens from other places like the free marches or weisshaupt but he is suspicious of everything Orlais even orlesian grey wardens. And of course, orlais is the nearest kingdom. Had it been someone else without a spine like loghain, he would have been paralyzed with indecision and fled.

[Blazomancer]

The previous battles were minor skirmishes with small number to betray the possibility of a blight, as Cailan mentions when the warden arrives. The horde is the real thing. I guess even the likes of Duncan must have heard about the horde only in stories. Otherwise, why would he, of all people, join cailan in the frontlines? Wasn't he the warden commander? Why would he lead his men to doom when it's necessary for as much grey wardens as possible to remain alive for the final blow. If it weren't for Flemeth's generousness, who knows what would have happened?

[IntoTheDarkness]

Blazomancer wrote...

The previous battles were minor
skirmishes with small number to betray the possibility of a blight, as
Cailan mentions when the warden arrives. The horde is the real thing. I
guess even the likes of Duncan must have heard about the horde only in
stories. Otherwise, why would he, of all people, join cailan in the
frontlines? Wasn't he the warden commander? Why would he lead his men to
doom when it's necessary for as much grey wardens as possible to remain
alive for the final blow. If it weren't for Flemeth's generousness, who
knows what would have happened?

Duncan saw the horde with his eyes. "for I've seen with my own eyes what lies in the horizon." and he makes it perfectly clear that he believes this to be the true blight and Cailen is being overconfident with his vicotries in previous battles.

I don't think previous battles were skirmishes since Duncan mentioned the horde 'outnumbers' Felrenden forces. It means the horde had more darkspawns than Ferelden forces in the last battle; it can't be a skirmish.


I will go read Gaider's explanation and be back later

Thank you guys for all the feedbacks. It's been most interesting.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 14 décembre 2012 - 07:40 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I think it was less generosity than the fact that Flemeth saw an opportunity to get a chance to see the Dark Ritual done. We don't know what her plans for the Godchild are, but they're probably her main motivation for this. Not to mention that since she hasn't managed to find a way to get across the Waking Sea without drawing attention to herself yet, it's in her best interest that the Blight stop.

[Blazomancer]

Hmm, as for proof, i guess you have to take Loghain's word for that. It has been a while since I spared loghain and made him a warden. So, i don't really remember exactly what he says when he is conversed with. And also there are some party banters. I think he mentions something like the battle could not have be won. I'm sorry. I don't really remember.
I never looked on him highly after he allowed slavery. That's bad. But i suppose if nothing else we are to make our own interpretations relating the ostagar incident.

[Blazomancer]

@Riverdaleswhiteflash - I agree. I just used the word 'generosity' in a comical sense. I hope the flemeth-godchild plot brings in some mindboggling revelations.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

They need to invent a way to get a sarcastic tone of voice across on this forum...

[TEWR]

I don't understand his intention behind the premeditated betrayal, as the writer David Gaider confirmed.

Wrong.

I stopped reading right here.

DG said Loghain formed a plan of retreat incase the battle went to hell, hoping that it wouldn't also result in having to abandon Cailan. That is not the same as a "premeditated betrayal". A premeditated betrayal would be Loghain arguing that Cailan should be on the front lines -- which he doesn't do -- and having a part in the Couslands' murder -- which he had nothing to do with.

DG also said that Loghain would've charged if the battle looked like it could be won, but when you factor in the delay of the signal, the fracturing of Cailan's troops, how Cailan ruined Loghain's proposed plan, and the fact that Darkspawn were still pouring out of the Wilds en masse then I don't see how anyone can honestly think of it as a betrayal.

Any decent general comes up with a retreat plan.

Don't forget that Cailan was cheating on Loghain's daughter

Not really. First, Cailan hadn't set Anora aside or had been cheating on Anora. He was having a secret correspondence with her and was weighing the idea of casting Anora aside to marry someone else -- more then likely Celene, but not certain.

That's only cheating in a mental definition and not everyone would even see it as that.

Loghain didn't know about that as we're presented with the plotline. The original idea was that Loghain would know about it.

But Bioware scrapped it.

Then they revisited the general idea in RtO, but in there he's finding out about all of it for the first time.