362 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Rosario]

lightswitch wrote...

.458 wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

According to our player data based on completion rates, the Collectors are slightly harder than other factions on Gold, but about the same as other factions on other difficulties. On Silver, they are the easiest faction.

Does it take into account supplies required to do so? Does it take into account death rate of those who randomly found collectors versus those who knew they were going in for? If they were not random collectors, how were they geared up for it compared to how they gear up for other factions? Are the same percent of games being played with collectors as others...or just by a select few?

All of these little exceptions and possible factors people have been suggesting are so minor as to be negligible put up against the amount of data Fagnan has available. Success rates for Collectors on Silver clearly don't reflect what you think you all know about the game. It's as simple as that. If Collectors were as incredibly overpowered as some people think the data would show that. It doesn't.

Blind faith much? You do know without those actual numbers or how they were actually attained they mean little. From what he said it could simply mean that Collectors has say a 85% success rate on silver which we would be to assume is the highest percent. Now, what it doesn't take into account is that the second easiest could be 84.9% success rate and it also is a percent, which means that people could do 100,000 reaper games at 84% success rate but only 20,000 total Collector games with that 85% success rate..

One can make the numbers sound how ever they like. I could also say from those same numbers that Reapers are the easiest because we have 84,000 successes against them but only 17,000 successes against Collectors.. I could then say with the exact same numbers that we have 5 times the Reaper successes than Collectors, making them the FAR easier faction.

Numbers are what you make them and without the actual numbers, statements like Erics have little bearing besides what his words actually say, and in this case, they are dripping with oppinion.

[BlueTobimon]

I still have no clue how to fight scions. I'd rather try to kill five Kroguards with an eagle, than fighting one scion.

[lightswitch]

Lord Rosario wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

Xeraphas wrote...

They blow up. They do a huge amount of damage with every explosion. You can stop some of them but it is nearly impossible to stop them all. On a platinum match, they were most definitely the most dangerous unit in the entire game we faced.

They only blow up when you attack them. Maybe next time have someone use a character that has a power like Throw, or Concussion Shot, or even Pull. Or bring a Scorpion. Or otherwise, if you're really having that much trouble shooting them before they get close use any staggering power on them. If one slips into blast range, don't shoot it. Let it grab someone, they give the F key (or equivelant on Xbox) some love and stomp it's head, they go down because it exposed them to that Scion across the map, you res them.

Yes, I absolutely love using throw, concussive shot, acolyte, or scorpian [three things that you mentioned there..] to knock possessed abominations off their feet, right over to my team mates where they promptly explode. It's quite funny if everyone isn't in danger, but otherwise, those sorts of things are exactly what get your team killed.

Best idea is to freeze them, kill them while they are far away, if they are close get away then kill them, or, if all else fails, headshot the thing. They won't explode then. All of that in mind.. Remember, these are the equivilent to shambling zombies that are supposed to be one of the lesser threats. You won't find a husk or swarmer consistently demolishing your team single handedly like these suckers will.

Situational awareness? The powers mentioned knock Abominations in predictable directions. Freezing them is good idea too though.

[Felis Menari]

I'm mostly ok with the Collectors. What I take issue with is the scion. It does more damage than any other ranged unit, and delays shield regen on top of that high damage. Most annoying enemy to deal with by far.

[Vittles05]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

According to our player data based on completion rates, the Collectors are slightly harder than other factions on Gold, but about the same as other factions on other difficulties. On Silver, they are the easiest faction.

No offense, but I'm calling complete bull**** here, I can usually complete silver no problem but almost every time I fight Collecters we either die or have to use more than our average amount of missiles and medi-gel.

[Toppien]

oh i really miss you baby...

[lightswitch]

Lord Rosario wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

All of these little exceptions and possible factors people have been suggesting are so minor as to be negligible put up against the amount of data Fagnan has available. Success rates for Collectors on Silver clearly don't reflect what you think you all know about the game. It's as simple as that. If Collectors were as incredibly overpowered as some people think the data would show that. It doesn't.

Blind faith much? You do know without those actual numbers or how they were actually attained they mean little. From what he said it could simply mean that Collectors has say a 85% success rate on silver which we would be to assume is the highest percent. Now, what it doesn't take into account is that the second easiest could be 84.9% success rate and it also is a percent, which means that people could do 100,000 reaper games at 84% success rate but only 20,000 total Collector games with that 85% success rate..

But...that wouldn't even matter. All that would indicate is that people think that they're less likely to succeed against Collectors and so play them less, even though the opposite is true.

Lord Rosario wrote...

One can make the numbers sound how ever they like. I could also say from those same numbers that Reapers are the easiest because we have 84,000 successes against them but only 17,000 successes against Collectors.. I could then say with the exact same numbers that we have 5 times the Reaper successes than Collectors, making them the FAR easier faction.

Numbers are what you make them and without the actual numbers, statements like Erics have little bearing besides what his words actually say, and in this case, they are dripping with oppinion.

I don't see any reason Fagnan would want to twist things around like this. He didn't need to add anything to the discussion at all, especially if for some bizarre reason he WANTS Collectors to be god-like in difficulty. If that were the case he would have just ignored the thread because at the end of the day he doesn't answer to BSN.

What comes across as 'dripping with opinion' to me are the people who think Collectors are 10x harder than the other factions because they haven't figured out how to fight Scions yet.

[Computron2000]

The last time they published rates, its was 3% completion and since collectors gold is less completed than geth gold, it might end up pretty bad in relative terms, meaning reapers 6%, cerberus 5%, geth 4%, collectors 3% so although the percentage is only a 3% difference from reapers, looked at another way, collectors completion rate is only 50% of reaper completion rate.

[Baby Quarian]

I played the geth on my first solo gold run. Had no problem. I think the collectors are worse.

[Lord Rosario]

lightswitch wrote...

Lord Rosario wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

All of these little exceptions and possible factors people have been suggesting are so minor as to be negligible put up against the amount of data Fagnan has available. Success rates for Collectors on Silver clearly don't reflect what you think you all know about the game. It's as simple as that. If Collectors were as incredibly overpowered as some people think the data would show that. It doesn't.

Blind faith much? You do know without those actual numbers or how they were actually attained they mean little. From what he said it could simply mean that Collectors has say a 85% success rate on silver which we would be to assume is the highest percent. Now, what it doesn't take into account is that the second easiest could be 84.9% success rate and it also is a percent, which means that people could do 100,000 reaper games at 84% success rate but only 20,000 total Collector games with that 85% success rate..

But...that wouldn't even matter. All that would indicate is that people think that they're less likely to succeed against Collectors and so play them less, even though the opposite is true.

Lord Rosario wrote...

One can make the numbers sound how ever they like. I could also say from those same numbers that Reapers are the easiest because we have 84,000 successes against them but only 17,000 successes against Collectors.. I could then say with the exact same numbers that we have 5 times the Reaper successes than Collectors, making them the FAR easier faction.

Numbers are what you make them and without the actual numbers, statements like Erics have little bearing besides what his words actually say, and in this case, they are dripping with oppinion.

I don't see any reason Fagnan would want to twist things around like this. He didn't need to add anything to the discussion at all, especially if for some bizarre reason he WANTS Collectors to be god-like in difficulty. If that were the case he would have just ignored the thread because at the end of the day he doesn't answer to BSN.

What comes across as 'dripping with opinion' to me are the people who think Collectors are 10x harder than the other factions because they haven't figured out how to fight Scions yet.

Don't get me wrong, the people claiming Collectors are discustingly more difficult than other enemies is also an opinion. But really, why even bring up that Collectors are the easiest faction on silver while also stating that acording to those same numbers they are the most difficult gold enemy? No other evidence beyond that word even though he apparently has those numbers. No deffinite meaning to those numbers either..

I'm honestly curious what the numbers are and what the differences are, even ignoreing all the other different ideas on what should be calculated as well. He doesn't have to intentionally twist the numbers to do what I stated. He already brought them up in just such a way without any further information, just making it a rather hollow statement that brought more discussion, some good, some bad. I'd guess that was his goal, to get more opinions on the matter is all.

[BlueTobimon]

Toppien wrote...


oh i really miss you baby...

You can't use plot devices in multiplayer, would be op.  
What a shame though, a Cain could clear a whole wave. 

[.458]

lightswitch wrote...

.458 wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

According to our player data based on completion rates, the Collectors are slightly harder than other factions on Gold, but about the same as other factions on other difficulties. On Silver, they are the easiest faction.

Does it take into account supplies required to do so? Does it take into account death rate of those who randomly found collectors versus those who knew they were going in for? If they were not random collectors, how were they geared up for it compared to how they gear up for other factions? Are the same percent of games being played with collectors as others...or just by a select few?

All of these little exceptions and possible factors people have been suggesting are so minor as to be negligible put up against the amount of data Fagnan has available. Success rates for Collectors on Silver clearly don't reflect what you think you all know about the game. It's as simple as that. If Collectors were as incredibly overpowered as some people think the data would show that. It doesn't.

I learned to question the method behind all statistics long ago. If you are so correct, tell me about the skewness and kurtosis...and the distribution in general of the data. Statistics are very useful, but unless you present all of the data and know how it was processed it becomes misleading. It isn't just about being "overpowered", it is also about the effort to achieve the same kill..."different" skill sets and "different" understandings of the enemy are expected if they are different; there does, however, seem to be some issues that make collectors more than just "different". For example, because of the errors which they could not get rid of without a patch they altered some of the standard balance variables for the damage they do...but that shifts the way the collectors work if for example they no longer hit very hard but have billions of hit points (just an example, though related to the published bugs). I know from a LOT of collector fights that this enemy is not equal to the others, that people are compensating and fighting much harder with them. The range of useful weaponry and kits against the collectors is far smaller than that against other enemies. Show me the data, and how it was crunched. This is how statistics are meant to be made useful, not by someone saying averages are close enough that all this thought and experience is wrong.

[.458]

lightswitch wrote...
...
I don't see any reason Fagnan would want to twist things around like this.
...

I also don't believe he wanted to twist things. I do believe though that conclusions are premature, that somewhere along the line perhaps the issue was not considered important enough to look at any kind of more indepth analysis. My problem is that I come from an extreme math and technical background and I instantly have questions when I see conclusions which I believe are premature from lack of a deeper understanding.

Blanket comments that everyone disagreeing is emotions only deserve a rebuttal. I know what I've seen. Check my manifest and challenges...I've finished collectors twice over and am working on the third time; I've finished spectre mastery twice and am a good  chunk of the way towards the third time; I've played over 5000 games. Do you think the game testers have done this much testing? You have to expect to be wrong if you're going to make blanket remarks about the wrongness of other people's opinions that you don't know.

Modifié par .458, 15 décembre 2012 - 07:49 .

[K_Os2]

They are easy on silver, but it's the "slightly harder" on gold that is a BIT of an understatement, I actually prefer the collector over Geth since i don't have to worry about whether or not 2 medigel is enough for me to get off the ground and into cover because of all the stun.

[hong]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

According to our player data based on completion rates, the Collectors are slightly harder than other factions on Gold, but about the same as other factions on other difficulties. On Silver, they are the easiest faction.

I find this rather difficult to believe. The data may say that the mission completion rate for Silver is highest for collectors, but have you allowed for:

- People being more willing to use consumables against collectors? I know I'm much more trigger-happy with missiles against them, for one.

- The skill level of the players in matches? You're likely to have less skilled players deliberately choosing to avoid them.

Without doing this, you can't really conclude that collectors are the easiest faction.

[DarkOdrib]

Toppien wrote...




oh i really miss you baby...

Oh how I miss it. First time I use it is to kill a prime only for a trooper to walk in front of me at the last second. Wouldn't use it on glacier or against collectors, those swarms come out of nowhere.

[RaptorSolutions]

DarkOdrib wrote...

Toppien wrote...




oh i really miss you baby...

Oh how I miss it. First time I use it is to kill a prime only for a trooper to walk in front of me at the last second. Wouldn't use it on glacier or against collectors, those swarms come out of nowhere.

I hoarded that damn thing's ammo until the end. Then I nuked it.

[ploppyjim]

I don't normally post on bsn, but do find the reading interesting. Anecdotally I find it hard to believe the claim that the collectors are the 'easiest' faction on silver.

I'm probably a solid silver quality player, able to contibute to a decent gold team, and able to extract on reaper/rio/platinum (hey, we all need credits sometime). And I stopped hosting unknown enemy games because of the toughness of collectors on silver. I've notice a massive difference in the % of extraction I get in PUG silver groups, so this gives me more than just my play style to take into account.

I'd love bioware to release the data the claim was based on (Infact I'd love them to release loads of says data for the community to get stuck into). I wouldn't be surprised if there people beating collectors were the better players (deliberately picking the faction) and that the randoms like me were just not playing against them. Maybe we could be told the number of matches played on each faction on silver (or ratios between them if bioware dont want to give away raw numbers) and the completion % of each.

Based on my own practice, I kinda suspect the % of using unknown faction well have decreased too. It would be interesting to hear if there was markedly different completion rates against collectors between unknown games and collector specific games.

All in all I'm still loving multiplayer . So keep up the good work guys.

Modifié par ploppyjim, 15 décembre 2012 - 08:43 .

[UWxMaserati]

The only issue I have with the collectors is getting hit with the beams through walls.

[mgc1971]

Collectors are by far the hardest faction.very agressive , very tought and hell, they deal a lot of damage.Call me crazy but I find them way easier to beat on Platinum than on Gold.....gold collectors require a lot of effort and a team that can deal tons of damage.Whenever I play against them with my friends we like to use our best weapons/characters/gear, I use exactly th same loadout for them on gold and platinum

The hardest and most difficult game I can remember has been a Collectors Gold on London, wave 6 with the hack in the middle of the match was a total nightmare.On the other hand, I find geth the easiest faction IF you fight them on a large map like Dagger, Giant or Hydra , and the most frustrating ones on smaller maps like Jade or Glacier because of the stuck lock issues

That's why I never play U/U/G.I like to know the facts of the incoming game before selecting my loadout

PS:The best medicine against collectors has a name:CLAYMORE.Nuff said

Modifié par mgc1971, 15 décembre 2012 - 08:47 .

[MrGoldarm]

I don't mind fighting Collectors,Geth on the other hand are annoying to fight no matter the difficulty.
It's mainly the hunters flanking me on warp speed, while i just killed them seconds ago, i find as amusing as a red hot screwdriver inserted below my fingernails

[ArcaptSSX]

I entirely agree with Lord Rosario and .458 in regard to statistics. A conclusion from one statistic simply doesn't tell the truth, it just allows you to manipulate it.

It's like saying what you see on TV news is the truth because you can see images of an event: montage and speaker can completely skew things up.
Sir W.Churchill said it best: "I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself".

Modifié par JohnBobbyTheThird, 15 décembre 2012 - 08:46 .

[gcmax]

I think they are only difficult when you can't avoid the swarms, or when you can't get enough distance between yourself and a possessed abomination before you take him out!

Played them on gold a few times and platinum and they do seem slightly harder than other factions but only because of those factors, although I would rather be surrounded by Reaper Marauders than Collector Generals as the Generals have a superior melee attack.

[BlueTobimon]

Is it just my imagination or does heavy melee not triggering the explosion? Atleast my Brawler wasn't blown up.