125 réponses à ce sujet

[T41rdEye]

This "controversy" about kits not fitting in rigid class distinctions is ridiculous. All classes can use all weapon types now, that is a bigger game-changer than anything else.

You also need to factor in different alien races and their abilities too, since we're not just talking about Shep anymore. Powers also can be hybrids by themselves. Biotic Charge is biotic/combat. TC is tech/combat. Its not black and white.

So you're basically saying an Asari mercenary isn't allowed to purchase and use a tactical cloak because she doesn't fit into rigid class descriptions. There are going to be all kinds of unique aliens out there with unique combinations of powers. They're not always going to fit nicely into your preconceived notions or a brief description on some menu about what a "sentinel" is.

Get off it, people. Adepts will have biotics, engineers will have tech... The rest is malleable.

[Uh Cold]

Draining Dragon wrote...

And why is the best weapons class in the game the Turian Ghost Infiltrator? I thought SOLDIERS were the weapon specialists!

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand done.

[ImDedicatedToMyApologies]

Especially for n7 crews... n7 paladin is much more like an engineer than demolisher to me. What else can they do when they have to design an umpteen of different characters?

[PinchLion]

Me1mN0t wrote...

This "controversy" about kits not fitting in rigid class distinctions is ridiculous. All classes can use all weapon types now, that is a bigger game-changer than anything else.

You also need to factor in different alien races and their abilities too, since we're not just talking about Shep anymore. Powers also can be hybrids by themselves. Biotic Charge is biotic/combat. TC is tech/combat. Its not black and white.

So you're basically saying an Asari mercenary isn't allowed to purchase and use a tactical cloak because she doesn't fit into rigid class descriptions. There are going to be all kinds of unique aliens out there with unique combinations of powers. They're not always going to fit nicely into your preconceived notions or a brief description on some menu about what a "sentinel" is.

Get off it, people. Adepts will have biotics, engineers will have tech... The rest is malleable.

This. I don't know why this is lost on people.

[Hyperglide]

It's called variety. There are only so many options you can do before you run out of options and run into a wall. They expanded the palette of options.

Also BatSent has Blade Armor which is a combat power IIRC.

Sentinels basically have some kind of defensive power, they aren't even regulated solely by having 1 tech and 1 biotic anymore. The Paladin has his Omni Shield for example, BatSent has Blade Armor, a lot of Tech Armors on most classes, and Bloodlust just to name a few.

[Draining Dragon]

Paradise Ablaze wrote...

Me1mN0t wrote...

This "controversy" about kits not fitting in rigid class distinctions is ridiculous. All classes can use all weapon types now, that is a bigger game-changer than anything else.

You also need to factor in different alien races and their abilities too, since we're not just talking about Shep anymore. Powers also can be hybrids by themselves. Biotic Charge is biotic/combat. TC is tech/combat. Its not black and white.

So you're basically saying an Asari mercenary isn't allowed to purchase and use a tactical cloak because she doesn't fit into rigid class descriptions. There are going to be all kinds of unique aliens out there with unique combinations of powers. They're not always going to fit nicely into your preconceived notions or a brief description on some menu about what a "sentinel" is.

Get off it, people. Adepts will have biotics, engineers will have tech... The rest is malleable.

This. I don't know why this is lost on people.

I don't know why what I'm saying is lost on people. I'm asking what the classes mean. The answer I'm getting is something like "Well, you can't expect the classes to fit specific roles"

Wait... isn't that the definition of a "class"?

[LoonySpectre]

...and Volus Adept has THREE "tech" powers - Shield Boost and those two unique "melee" powers, weak tactical cloak and shield-boosting DR-increasing bubble. He's basically much more like the original Sentinel than the Volus Sentinel.

[Kushiel42]

Draining Dragon wrote...

I don't know why what I'm saying is lost on people. I'm asking what the classes mean. The answer I'm getting is something like "Well, you can't expect the classes to fit specific roles"

Wait... isn't that the definition of a "class"?

The kits fulfill specific roles (sometimes several different ones per kit, depending on specific builds). The classes are just groups of workplace colleagues who probably prefer drinking with each other rather than the weirdos in the other five groups.

Worrying about niche protection along six different lines in a game that has 40+ niches is overly reductive, because then you end up designing kits that are just tiny little variations on other kits in their axis.

Modifié par Kushiel42, 15 décembre 2012 - 06:27 .

[BlueTobimon]

This thread is so true. I agree.

[Guglio08]

The classes have ALWAYS been defined by their role. Simply mixing powers will create an entirely different dynamic, regardless of what kind of powers they are. Adepts are combo casters - every single one this far can self detonate biotic explosions. Engineers are tech casters; they also have pets / deploy-able powers. Soldiers are damage dealers, weapons or otherwise. Infiltrators are high spike damage specialists. Vanguards are close quarter fighters, and Sentinels are utility tanks. Their powers are representative of those roles, not the other way around.

[WARMACHINE9]

Gods forbid we should worry about whats fun over what's "right". Playing by the "rules" is always better than having fun, right volus adept?

Modifié par WARMACHINE9, 15 décembre 2012 - 07:15 .

[ArcaptSSX]

The issue is mostly because of lack of specializations in my opinion. Think of it: at lv.20 you barely make concessions when you spec 6x3, 5 and 3 in your 2 minor trees. The biggest concessions are probably made within a tree rather than between trees.
It would've been pretty different with a class-specific tree added. Imagine boost to power or combo damage in an Adept specific line or higher shield increase for soldiers.
When you think of sentinels, since most have an armour of sorts, that only leaves room for 2 powers and before Retaliation's change to FEs/CEs, combos would've been a lot harder to induce between biotics and tech. It's too bad that they didn't design some new sentinels that would've taken advantage of the new possibilities

As a result ME3 classes lack identity, and species in ME3 also lack identity. Look at Asari and Humans for instance: same shields, same power bonuses, same weapon damage. As i understood it, Asaris were supposed to be superior biotics, only rarely equalled by some humans and it's not like the array of powers available to the Asari make them particularly more powerful than the human biotics.

[T41rdEye]

Draining Dragon wrote...

Paradise Ablaze wrote...

Me1mN0t wrote...

This "controversy" about kits not fitting in rigid class distinctions is ridiculous. All classes can use all weapon types now, that is a bigger game-changer than anything else.

You also need to factor in different alien races and their abilities too, since we're not just talking about Shep anymore. Powers also can be hybrids by themselves. Biotic Charge is biotic/combat. TC is tech/combat. Its not black and white.

So you're basically saying an Asari mercenary isn't allowed to purchase and use a tactical cloak because she doesn't fit into rigid class descriptions. There are going to be all kinds of unique aliens out there with unique combinations of powers. They're not always going to fit nicely into your preconceived notions or a brief description on some menu about what a "sentinel" is.

Get off it, people. Adepts will have biotics, engineers will have tech... The rest is malleable.

This. I don't know why this is lost on people.

I don't know why what I'm saying is lost on people. I'm asking what the classes mean. The answer I'm getting is something like "Well, you can't expect the classes to fit specific roles"

Wait... isn't that the definition of a "class"?

Adept - Biotic specialists
Engineer - Tech specialists
Soldier - Weapon and Combat power specialists, better at sustained damage
Vanguard - CQC Biotics, high risk/sometimes high reward. Defined by Biotic Charge.

Here's the key:
Infiltrator - Tactical Cloak used as a Burst Damage power, aggro dump, and/or stealth. Since TC can boost weapon damage, it can be considered a hybrid Tech/Combat power. It doesn't matter what the other two powers are. This class is defined (and also loved, hated, and everything in between) by TC. Think "Assassin." IMO the "nerf" was well thought-out. You should need to pick whether you want to be the assassin, or the squad healer/support.

Sentinel - Unique. Can mix biotic/tech, but not required. Defender. Versatile. Usually has some defensive power (Paladin's shield is why he's a Sentinel, ED also) Originally Tech Armor was what defined the Sentinel, but thats changed. 

Final Thought:
Theres only (6) classes. 3 Pure, 3 Hybrid. When you put these constraints on what an <insert class here> should be, you are stifling creativity. In a MP game with 60-some kits, you need variety. 

Think of yourself as some mercenary in the Terminus Systems and you are trying to decide what (3) powers you want. You have limited training and/or budget, so you can't just pick the 3 best powers out there. class descriptions and such won't matter much to you when you've got Reapers banging down your door.

Sorry for the long post. Maybe it will make someone see the light.

[Triple Escape]

It's very strange. Don't forget, we also have two sentinels with no tech (tech armor doesn't count) and four soldiers with tech powers (vorcha, geth, havoc, marksman). Then there's the volus engineer with the combat power. Oh, and both biotic volus have shield boost, which is by all means a tech power. I could go on.

The difference between tech and combat is nonexistent at this point. Carnage vs. Incinerate, really, what is the difference? Every other soldier has a strictly tech-category power these days. Only a few of the soldiers even have weapon-boosting abilities now when that's what they were all about. Apparently pyromania classifies as the same thing now. But then, tech powers are largely fire-based too. So what's the difference?

Let's just forget about the directly lore-breaking vorcha with biotics.

[visionazzery]

Sorry the havoc soldier is a darn vanguard. Soldiers are ' weapon specialists most of you say that yourselves. For mass effect purists this is a big concern. And frankly there no excuse for bioware to deviate to totLly transform.ANy class into something it is not. There is still soo much scope to introduce. New tech powers, New tech combos for tech based And new biotic and biotic combos for biotic , subsequently, hybrid are and supposed to be hybrid of both tech and biotic. Interestingly nobody challenged me on the notion that the havoc soldier is in truth a tech based vguard

[visionazzery]

And nooooo purist in my views, being a mass effect fan since yeRs ago. I not that silly that I ditch mplayer just cos bioware confuse their own class creations

[jarrattgray]

Look the game balance broke in SP when you could equip any weapon on any class.

I love the cooldown system. It really is a nice way around the limitations of letting everyone use any weapon.

But lets face it, Sentinels became soldiers the minute they were allowedd to use anything other than a pistol and an SMG. It used to be that Engineers, Adepts and Sentinels could only use Pistols and SMGs. Soldiers could use everything, Infiltrators got Pistols, SMGs and Snipers Rifles and Vanguards got Pistols, SMGs and Shotguns.

Sure in ME1 anyone could use any gun, but they only have power trees for their selected weapons.

So even in ME2, when the Sentinel got the Tech Armour it still could only use the light weapons to maximize casting.

ME3 threw that out the window. And with it Tactical Cloak became a lot more overpowered (Geth Infiltrator with a Javelin is good but not as extreme as a Geth Infiltrator with a Piranha, Sentinels became soldiers and Vanguards for the most part became close combat adepts.

I definitely miss the days of versatile caster sentinels and tanky combat vanguards, not to mention to sneaky Infiltrators. Though on that last MP really doesn't cater to the cloaked sniper in the same way it does in SP. In SP you getto set up shots for maximum damage. In MP you get the damage bonus to give maximum damage. The two games are so very different.

I also think the addition of Biotic Explosions and to soe degree Tech Explosions hurt the Sentinel a little. In MP you don't have many powers. If one of them is Tech Armour then it is difficult to be Tech and biotic and make the most of it. The Turian does it by being a weapons specialist. Saber or Indra on that guy is amazing. But that certainly isn't a light weapon wielding caster. The Human Sentinel is definitely more of a caster but he has 2 biotic powers to get biotic explosions.

Don't get me wrong Biotic Explosions are awesome. It's just that in ME2 you only got them through Singularity (and maybe Pull but I can't remember) + Warp. They got me through ME2 Insanity with an Adept. But in ME3 they are the bread and butter of the biotic casters. They are still very much an adept thing, but a few characters outside of adepts can do them and they really are the bread and butter of biotics.

But ultimately the strength of BEs and TEs means that Sentinels are better off not having Tech Biotic versatily.

So yeah the classes are all over the place now, but when you only get 3 powers and can use any gun it's kind of to be expected.

[StrawHatMoose]

class system is messed up. Soldiers with charge... Adepts with cloak.... Adepts, soldiers, vanguards, infiltrators who can tank better than any sentinel... Soldier who are more about powers than utilising weapons.... But it doesn't matter, just go with the flow.

[Sailears]

They ought to categorise it as:

Species -> class -> Character

[Grunt_Platform]

visionazzery wrote...

Sorry the havoc soldier is a darn vanguard. Soldiers are ' weapon specialists most of you say that yourselves. For mass effect purists this is a big concern. And frankly there no excuse for bioware to deviate to totLly transform.ANy class into something it is not. There is still soo much scope to introduce. New tech powers, New tech combos for tech based And new biotic and biotic combos for biotic , subsequently, hybrid are and supposed to be hybrid of both tech and biotic. Interestingly nobody challenged me on the notion that the havoc soldier is in truth a tech based vguard

Havoc Strike has a significantly shorter cooldown than Biotic Charge. Combiend with some weapon synergy, the Havoc soldier is a great kit for shotguns and the like, since he can close gaps extremely quickly. Specing out of Havoc Strike makes him more of a ranged heavy weapons specialist.

He's a weapons & melee specialist. Two arenas shared with most other Soldiers, and thanks to Stim Packs, he's getting a better damage bonus than vanguards.

He's definitely right at where the line between Soldier and Vanguard blurs though. To compensate, we need a "biotic soldier" style Vanguard. 

Modifié par EvanKester, 16 décembre 2012 - 01:37 .

[Sailears]

The fool you should have eaten wrote...

They could have very easily avoided this by putting classes in according to their actual power set. IE, the huntress would be a sentinel, the Vorcha Soldier would be a an infiltrator, the Paladin an engineer. You get the idea. Why not do that? There really isn't a need for a signature class power and it fits the literal descriptions.

The most sensible post I've read all day.

100% agree.

[iOnlySignIn]

I suppose every time you eat cereal you make a Shakespearean monologue about the meaning behind its pattern in the milk.

[Queen Ultima]

jarrattgray wrote...

Look the game balance broke in SP when you could equip any weapon on any class.

I agree with you totally, the cooldown + any weapon mechanic, vs the "weapon for classes" mechanic is a huge, unbelievable change....

But couldn't you always, eventually, learn every weapon as any class in ME1 and 2? Or at least choose a weapon your class cannot use that you prefer. In ME1, you had to get the achievements for the weapon, and you'd unlock the training. I know I unlocked my Sniper Rifle as a Sentinel in ME1 (I was a kid, I made bad choices and I feel bad now). In ME2... Can't you select between Assault Rifle/Sniper Rifle/Shotgun training on the Collector Ship, with an "ultimate" in that weapon-class if you've already learned it. Do those go into New Game Pluses? (I mean, when you replay the game form a finished save all the way from the start, with credits and powers).

As for classes... Maybe the classifications used in ME1/ 2 / 3SP were classifications used by the Alliance only? I mean, Tali was a shotgun-using Engineer, Garrus an Assault-R Infil, etc etc. I've played Mass Effect from day one, read the backround stuff, etc, and I -love- the idea of mixing the classes, if it makes sense. Now, mistakes are made, but honestly, the class system is a non-canon, out of universe way to describe the tactics of battlefield combatants that, with such a varied variety that are involved both in Retaliation and in the Reaper War itself, could never be sufficently defined without having outliers and exceptions. Treating the classification as strict gospel, instead of guideline and a sample of general playstyle seems utterly nonsensical to me.

[jarrattgray]

Queen Ultima wrote...

jarrattgray wrote...

Look the game balance broke in SP when you could equip any weapon on any class.

I agree with you totally, the cooldown + any weapon mechanic, vs the "weapon for classes" mechanic is a huge, unbelievable change....

But couldn't you always, eventually, learn every weapon as any class in ME1 and 2? Or at least choose a weapon your class cannot use that you prefer. In ME1, you had to get the achievements for the weapon, and you'd unlock the training. I know I unlocked my Sniper Rifle as a Sentinel in ME1 (I was a kid, I made bad choices and I feel bad now). In ME2... Can't you select between Assault Rifle/Sniper Rifle/Shotgun training on the Collector Ship, with an "ultimate" in that weapon-class if you've already learned it. Do those go into New Game Pluses? (I mean, when you replay the game form a finished save all the way from the start, with credits and powers).

Yeah you absolutely could, but only 1 in ME1. It was like the bonus squadmate power except first you had to unlock the achievement first, which meant at least a partial playthrough. This was a starting choice and couldn't be changed. I tok Assault Rifle for my adept and then at the Collector Ship with him made the same choice again.
 
But this was reasonably limiting compared to what you can do in ME3. In addition the weapons and their use as changed considerably. IN ME2 Shields were stripped by auto fire and Overload/Concussive Shot, Armour by slow weapons and Warp/Incinerate, and Barrier by Warp/Concussive Shot. So swapping between weapons was pretty important. 
 
In ME3 you really just want 1 weapon. This is SP I'm talking about here and MP is a little different depending on who you play. I guess the thing is that the option is so varied and you can change more often.

As for classes... Maybe the classifications used in ME1/ 2 / 3SP were classifications used by the Alliance only? I mean, Tali was a shotgun-using Engineer, Garrus an Assault-R Infil, etc etc. I've played Mass Effect from day one, read the backround stuff, etc, and I -love- the idea of mixing the classes, if it makes sense. Now, mistakes are made, but honestly, the class system is a non-canon, out of universe way to describe the tactics of battlefield combatants that, with such a varied variety that are involved both in Retaliation and in the Reaper War itself, could never be sufficently defined without having outliers and exceptions. Treating the classification as strict gospel, instead of guideline and a sample of general playstyle seems utterly nonsensical to me.

 

I'm down with this except that the N7 characters from Earth are just so wildly different. These characters probably should have been mercs or aliens, not N7 humans. Shep is an N7 human so the N7 power options and playstyles should have mimicked Shep more closely. Half of them have merc, terminsus system or cerberus skins too. So I just wouldn't call them N7.

[Queen Ultima]

jarrattgray wrote...

I'm down with this except that the N7 characters from Earth are just so wildly different. These characters probably should have been mercs or aliens, not N7 humans. Shep is an N7 human so the N7 power options and playstyles should have mimicked Shep more closely. Half of them have merc, terminsus system or cerberus skins too. So I just wouldn't call them N7.

But.... Then I wouldn't have my Fury........ *cries*

Also, I thought the "Shepard mimic" was the default Human class. I don't see how every N7 are so different to the style of other classes. I'll give you the Paladin, as pure tech. Demolisher... Maybe, as it's weapon centric (if you don't count grenade centric). Vanguard still has high risk/reward, essentially just the Human Vanguard with Nova given a range and Shockwave given an upgrade. Soldier is a weapon-centric, cooldownless class. Adept is viable at both melee and long ranges (adepts, IMO are more mid-to-melee range than Engies, especially with things like Shockwave and AF). Infiltrator fixates on melee more than ranged, adding a balance to a range-heavy class. As for the "lore" of it... I'm writing a fanfic, and thinking about how to incorporate all N7 units. Best I can think is that the N7s are chosing to adopt the strategies of their enemies (mostly Cerberus) to defeat them, a sort of "Strength in using your enemy's power). So, Demolisher - Cerb Engineer, Fury - Banshee, Devastator - Centurion, Slayer/Shadow - Phantom, Paladin - Guardian. Remember, Shep is an N7 but s/he went through training years ago. Not to mention that the N7s on Earth would have had to adopt tactics that wouldn't have worked against conventional armies like the N7s were made for (ie, First Contact War).

As for weapons... I've been going through the game, SP at least, as "Fast weapons against shields, slow weapons against armor"... I'll admit I miss being able to carry every single gun on my back, levelling a few different classes (soldier, sentinel, infil) and each one there's no reason to bring more than I'd use (mostly AR/Sniper for Sol/Infil, and Mattock for Sent). Still, MP centric, the artificial "two-weapon" limit does limit your choice, surely?

Modifié par Queen Ultima, 16 décembre 2012 - 02:42 .