137 réponses à ce sujet

[BlazingSpeed]

The final battle should be the Templar and Mage factions duking it out in Val Royeaux in the mist of a Tevinter Imperium/ Qunari invasion.

Depending on the choices made during the course of the game the setting could be a landsmeet parley type deal or The battle of Ostagar.

[Pedrak]

^ Why not?

[Mark of the Dragon]

Estelindis wrote...

To my mind, the things that matter most about a climactic endgame confrontation are drama, complexity and difficulty.

1) Drama: it has to feel dangerous and important; much of what you care about has to be at stake.

2) Complexity: many strands are being brought together at a narrative level, and many of the skills that the player and their team have acquired throughout the story are tested.

3) Difficulty: hopefully, these are all being tested more than they ever were before, which adds to the sense of climax and danger.

In my opinion, the landsmeet at Denerim came close to a conversational boss fight, because it exemplified all these things.  (The only sense in which it wasn't, really, was that it wasn't the final big confrontation of the game.)   It was dramatic in that a huge amount was at stake; vital characters from the story could die as a direct result of what happened and it would determine whether or not the player could go on to help save Ferelden. Surely no one will argue that is was not complex! There were a huge amount of variables involved. And, finally, it was (in my humble opinion) quite difficult: approaching it without metagaming, it was hard to know for sure that any given approach would yield the result that one desired. (And getting Alistair to fight Loghain, which I found thematically appropriate, was much tougher than just having my city elf rogue gut him summarily.)

I think that a problem here is the sense that some combat should be involved. I inherently feel this way myself. However, I don't know how to balance a sense of the conversation's importance with the combat's importance. At times, it feels a little farcical to me that, even after Loghain is indicted by the Landsmeet, he gets a chance to fight and win. How could anyone actually follow him after all that was revealed about him (in a successful Landsmeet), even if he (heroically?!) managed to beat someone with twenty years less combat experience than him? Yet I cannot deny that, in many ways, it feels *right* to face him physically, to have the satisfaction of beating him in a fight after all that's come before.

So yes: how does one make the player feel that the conversational battle matters if it still comes down to a fight at the end? Perhaps some modification to the fight, with bonuses or penalties? Perhaps one fights someone or something else, under different conditions?

Just my few thoughts. :-)

I loved the landsmeet. In a way it was a climax to one of the Wardens biggest problems and a well done climax at that.

I also really enjoyed how it mixed conversation mechanics and combat. I would be ok with something like this, on a bigger scale, for the endgame. I actually really enjoyed the one on one duels in both DAO and DA2.

[bloodmage13]

I think a good example of a bad climax in a game is DA II. The final battle was short and boring when compared to the final portion of DAO.

[Boiny Bunny]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I agree that it's important to have a final challenge (of some sort) as part of a climax to a story.

My question is, must it be a boss fight? Or could it be a challenge presented in a different way?

On that point - I have to admit, the 'escape' sequence which plays at the end of the original Halo in place of a 'boss fight' was a stroke of genius in my opinion.  I love that part. 

[Gemini1179]

Philosophical discussion aside, I'm playing an epic sword & scorcery rpg, I want a giant boss fight at the end. It is an essential gameplay component ingrained in the mindset of the gamer. This is one of those cases where as developers, you don't need to reinvent the wheel.

There are always exceptions that work and those that really, really don't *cough* ME3 *cough*.

DLC is so much easier on the pallet when you can acquire more/better gear that can help you in that last fight. This was done well in ME1,2 & DAO, DA2.

[Mark of the Dragon]

bloodmage13 wrote...

I think a good example of a bad climax in a game is DA II. The final battle was short and boring when compared to the final portion of DAO.

I do agree DA2's ending is a fail compared to Origins although I dont think DA2's ending was suppose to be as epic.

In regards to the topic Im thinking that something like ME2's suicide mission would be a great boss fight even without the end battle with the reaper. It had a lot od consequence and it was exciting to play.

[Doctoglethorpe]

Gemini1179 wrote...

Philosophical discussion aside, I'm playing an epic sword & scorcery rpg, I want a giant boss fight at the end. It is an essential gameplay component ingrained in the mindset of the gamer. This is one of those cases where as developers, you don't need to reinvent the wheel.

Agreed.

Brings to mind how ubsurd I find the argument "its too video gamey."  Are words on paper too bookish? 

[Nerys]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I agree that it's important to have a final challenge (of some sort) as part of a climax to a story.

My question is, must it be a boss fight? Or could it be a challenge presented in a different way?

I would be open to alternative ways to conclude the story. I love the way the previous two DA's have ended. But, it would be interesting to see something different. Ending perhaps "Not with a bang, but a whimper". As long as it didn't feel anti-climactic that is. In short, If the ending fit the story I would be fine with it.
(unless it in any way resembled the way ME eventually ended their storyline) 

[Althix]

that depends what will be offered to us in this game. i don't expect best-ever-rpg, not after da2 and me games.

basicaly the way you play the game, from very start to very finish should determine possible outcome of end conflict. let say if you hacked and slashed you way through entire game - "bad' guy in the end should understand that you are here not to talk the talk, but walk the walk. And if your character have fame of a violent slayer, than npc should consider you a slayer and force final battle.
On the other hand if your character was solving conflicts by power of the word, with out bloodletting. Last "bad" guy must keep that in mind, and two of you should be able to solve differences in non violent way.

To put it simple, how you play the game should have direct impact on how last confrontation could be resolved. If you are peacemaker, than talk "bad" guy to submission. If you walk the scarlet path, then you should hack "bag" guy's head off his shoulders in battle.

This would require a lot of work to make game where choices matters.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 20 décembre 2012 - 10:24 .

[TMJfin]

I really don't need boss fight to be satisfied with ending. In DA:O Arch demon was a no brainer and fun, but DA2's two boss fights was stupid and I'm one of those people who really liked DA2.

In Mass Effect I really loved when I talked Saren to shoot himself. I thought "thank you BioWare, no mandatory boss fight", but then the frog Saren happend. IMO it would've been better that if you can't talk Saren down only then you have to fight him. Because of this I thought than in the end of ME3 TIM would change to some "RAAAWR I'M MEGASUPERREAPERIZEDTIM", was so glad that it didn't happen.

[bombspy]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I agree that it's important to have a final challenge (of some sort) as part of a climax to a story.

My question is, must it be a boss fight? Or could it be a challenge presented in a different way?

As long as there is a imminent danger of death to yourself or your companions the finale has a challenge. Whether it includes a boss fight or not doesn't matter then imo.

I just want a heart-stopping conclusion for the game no matter how it is achieved.


btw: Game of Thrones (overall a crappy game) had a quite cool finale. You had to fight your only companion till death.

Modifié par bombspy, 20 décembre 2012 - 11:23 .