Zum Inhalt wechseln

Foto

"All organics must destroy or control synthetic life forms" - foreshadowing the ending and why it failed: a fundamental disconnect between writers and players


  • Bitte melde dich an um zu Antworten
171 Antworten in diesem Thema

#1
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25.174 Beiträge
I just stumbled over this line:

"All organics must destroy or control synthetic life forms"

It is from ME1, said by the AI in the Signal Tracking assignment on the Citadel, and I found it interesting how exactly it foreshadows ME3's ending, where Shepard will get to do exactly that with the Reapers. I then considered the many dealings we had with synthetics over the course of three games and asked myself: this *is* a major defining theme of the story and the MEU. Why didn't it work in the ending?

Here's the hypothesis I propose as an answer: there was a fundamental disconnect between the writers and the players about how we would react to synthetic life forms in general and how we would consider them as life forms. In detail:

(1) I think the writers expected us to see synthetic life forms as fundamentally different, they expected we had to learn to consider them as valid life forms. Recall how hard the geth plot in ME3 stresses the fact that the geth were defending themselves? As if we didn't know that already - it's been in the Codex since ME1 and was a topic in several conversations. We even get to say "they just defended themselvs" to Tali in ME1!
I don't know about others, but I never saw synthetics as fundamentally "other", and I always considered the geth as "just enemies". That they were synthetics was strictly accidental and had no bearing on the interaction. If that's the same for most of us - and from what I've been reading on the forums I think it is - then the writers have drastically underestimated our willingness to consider synthetic life forms as valid right from the start. So, when the topic was brought up in the ending, most of us would go "WTF? That's been dealt with. The geth were enemies, and now they're not any more. Or did you [the writers] think we would think synthetics unable to keep peace? After all you've been writing about the geth's desire for peaceful coexistence?"

(2) I think the writers expected us to lump the Reapers together with the geth into the "synthetic" and thus "other" category of life. So that while we were learning to accept synthetics as people, we would also consider the possibility that the Reapers were "just enemies" and otherwise valid forms of life.
What brought that to ruin so completely that there was no recovery was that they pushed the horror up to eleven in ME2 and again in ME3. To estimate the role of the "abomination aesthetic", consider how you would've reacted if the Reapers had harvested organics, but in a somewhat "cleaner", more clinical way, without all the unnecessary pain and the re-use of organic body parts for their minions. What if the Reaper minions had been machines instead of travesties of existing species? I venture to guess that many of us would have been rather more ready to see the Reapers as "just enemies" instead of "eldritch abominations", enemies with which to make peace was generally considered possible.

I think this hypothesis of a fundamental disconnect explains two things rather neatly: that the writers considered the organic/synthetic conflict to be such a big thing where for most of us, it was nothing more than dealing with yet another species who could be hostile or friendly like any other, and that they expected us to accept more easily an ending where the Reapers were integrated into galactic civilization.

For some of us, that worked. I am one of them. But I had to work hard to see that angle, and I was only willing to invest that work because I saw the possibility for a future I like lurking behind all the thematic confusion. For most players, the ending simply failed, and even if the EC saved it, most people still can't see any fundamental quality in the organic/synthetic conflict that makes it different from any other war between two species. 

Bearbeitet von Ieldra2, 15 Dezember 2012 - 04:27 .


#2
ruggly

ruggly
  • Members
  • 7.534 Beiträge
I think the problem with that line is that it's so easily missed. I didn't find it until my fourth or so playthrough of ME1 (and if you're like me, I kind of forgot about it as well until the end of ME3)

Bearbeitet von ruggly, 15 Dezember 2012 - 04:26 .


#3
GreyLycanTrope

GreyLycanTrope
  • Members
  • 12.661 Beiträge
Taking one line from a side mission people tend to miss isn't really good foreshadowing. Not to mention that one random and inconsequential AI you meet on the Citadel isn't really much of an authority for setting the theme for the entire series, now if this train of thought would be something touched upon by EDI or the Geth at any given point you'd have something more solid, not the case however.
  • Esthlos und Artona gefällt das

#4
jtav

jtav
  • Members
  • 13.965 Beiträge
And for another, dialogue that would have made the geth more other is well-hidden. If you go neutral on Jacob's loyalty mission, Legion is coldly interested in what the hunters plan to do. He expresses no horror at Jack's living condition, merely calling them inadequate. No malice in either case, but the mindset is alien enough to make you wonder how we could coexist with such.

And it's almost impossible to see.

#5
AresKeith

AresKeith
  • Members
  • 34.120 Beiträge
@Grey And the fact that Bioware said they wasn't planning ahead from ME1 also says something

Bearbeitet von AresKeith, 15 Dezember 2012 - 04:31 .


#6
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25.174 Beiträge
@Greylycantrope:
Please note that I'm using that line only as a hook. Of course it's not enough to foreshadow the ending on its own. But if you accept my hypothesis, it's easy to see where there was some intended foreshadowing that didn't work. If it had worked, the ending scenario wouldn't have come out of nowhere.

#7
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25.174 Beiträge

AresKeith wrote...
@Grey And the fact that Bioware said they wasn't planning ahead from ME1 also says something

They decided that the overarching story arc of the trilogy would be about the organic/synthetic conflict somewhen in the early development of ME2. There was ample opportunity to give that theme more space. But they didn't because they thought there already was enough.

#8
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25.174 Beiträge

jtav wrote...
And for another, dialogue that would have made the geth more other is well-hidden. If you go neutral on Jacob's loyalty mission, Legion is coldly interested in what the hunters plan to do. He expresses no horror at Jack's living condition, merely calling them inadequate. No malice in either case, but the mindset is alien enough to make you wonder how we could coexist with such.

And it's almost impossible to see.

Unsurprisingly, I've never seen that since I've always done Jacob's LM before I got Legion. It's unbelievable how much damage the late appearance of Legion did to the story. Recall his explanation of the Reapers' nature, where he says they're uploaded and conjoined minds? That's also almost impossible to get.

Bearbeitet von Ieldra2, 15 Dezember 2012 - 04:43 .

  • Artona gefällt das

#9
Solmanian

Solmanian
  • Members
  • 1.744 Beiträge
Actauly alot of posters in this forums consider synthetic fundomantaly different from organics. Someone actually posted something along the lines of "geth can't have babies or families, therefore they are inferior to quarians in everyway, and we should always choose the quarians since the geth don't deserve to live".

That disscussion spanned fro 20+ pages, and involved some of the worst biggotry directed at a fictional species I've ever seen... Posted Image

P.s.
I forgot to mention the "EDI and the geth are compulsive lyers and decievers, dedicated for the annihilation of all organics". That just inexplicapable demonization of synthetic. When I told them I haven't actually seen any indication of that in the game, they responded by "then you haven't made the same dialogue choices as we did...". Posted Image

Bearbeitet von Solmanian, 15 Dezember 2012 - 04:49 .


#10
o Ventus

o Ventus
  • Members
  • 17.191 Beiträge

Ieldra2 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
@Grey And the fact that Bioware said they wasn't planning ahead from ME1 also says something

They decided that the overarching story arc of the trilogy would be about the organic/synthetic conflict somewhen in the early development of ME2. There was ample opportunity to give that theme more space. But they didn't because they thought there already was enough.


According to what?

#11
Dr_Extrem

Dr_Extrem
  • Members
  • 4.092 Beiträge

Ieldra2 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
@Grey And the fact that Bioware said they wasn't planning ahead from ME1 also says something

They decided that the overarching story arc of the trilogy would be about the organic/synthetic conflict somewhen in the early development of ME2. There was ample opportunity to give that theme more space. But they didn't because they thought there already was enough.


if that was their plan, it failed miserably.

up to the last moment, the conflict between organics and synthetics appears to be a side arc, wich resolves on rannoch (geth vs. quarians). just like the sideplot about uplifting species, before they are ready for it - this resolves on tuchanka.

up to the very end, the player thinks, that the conflict between the "free people" and the reapers are the main plot of the series.

the geth joined sovereign in me1 willingly. in me2, it come out, that only 5% of the geth joined them, because of a faulty calculation. in fact, the 5% had chosen to the other side of the conflict ... they were not "synthetics" anymore, they were "reapers". the writers failed to show that the conflict the catalyst discribes, is the main plot of the game.

in addition, we know very little about the reapers motivations. all we get is: "you are too underdeveloped, to understand our motives." .. the motive, as the catalyst discribes it, is not too difficult to understand .. it is in fact easy to see, that it is just based on flawed assumptions. the player starts to think about the reapers motivations (wich is great) and we come to different conclusions .. there was a thread about it several days ago.

the "foreshadowing" in general is very thin in this series and very easy to miss.


it is very easy to alter the understanding afterwards, because you know the outcome .. its like reading the last page of a crime story. if you know who the murderer is, you can see the hints totally clear.

#12
JBPBRC

JBPBRC
  • Members
  • 3.444 Beiträge
Alot of this can really be blamed on ME2 for not really advancing the plot in any meaningful way. Great new characters, horrible plot advancement.

The genophage plotline was developed far more than the main story in ME2 for instance, and it shows when its time comes up in ME3. And a good chunk of that is completely optional. Likewise with Legion and the Geth.

Speaking of Legion, does anything happen at all with just not doing his LM in ME2 and letting the heretics just have the virus?

Bearbeitet von JBPBRC, 15 Dezember 2012 - 04:54 .


#13
Solmanian

Solmanian
  • Members
  • 1.744 Beiträge

jtav wrote...

And for another, dialogue that would have made the geth more other is well-hidden. If you go neutral on Jacob's loyalty mission, Legion is coldly interested in what the hunters plan to do. He expresses no horror at Jack's living condition, merely calling them inadequate. No malice in either case, but the mindset is alien enough to make you wonder how we could coexist with such.

And it's almost impossible to see.


How would you expect an android to express "horror"? I'm picturing legion running around the normandy with flailing arms "danger, commander shepard Danger, commander shepard!". Posted Image

#14
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25.174 Beiträge

o Ventus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
@Grey And the fact that Bioware said they wasn't planning ahead from ME1 also says something

They decided that the overarching story arc of the trilogy would be about the organic/synthetic conflict somewhen in the early development of ME2. There was ample opportunity to give that theme more space. But they didn't because they thought there already was enough.


According to what?

Statements from Bioware and evidence from ME2. They said they decided the overarching plot "early". Also, had the old Dark Energy plot still been on the table when ME2 was produced, they wouldn't have cut off the dark energy angle of the Haestrom mission. At the same time, it can't have been much earlier, or that part of the Haestrom mission wouldn't have existed in the first place. Given that missions are designed early in development and most of the development time goes into production I conclude the decision must've been made early in the development cycle of ME2.

#15
JBPBRC

JBPBRC
  • Members
  • 3.444 Beiträge

Solmanian wrote...

jtav wrote...

And for another, dialogue that would have made the geth more other is well-hidden. If you go neutral on Jacob's loyalty mission, Legion is coldly interested in what the hunters plan to do. He expresses no horror at Jack's living condition, merely calling them inadequate. No malice in either case, but the mindset is alien enough to make you wonder how we could coexist with such.

And it's almost impossible to see.


How would you expect an android to express "horror"? I'm picturing legion running around the normandy with flailing arms "danger, commander shepard Danger, commander shepard!". Posted Image


Or, to take a more (paraphrased) Bioware approach to robotic horror:

"Horrified Statement: Master, you would wish me to NOT exterminate organic meatbags? B-b-but....I....the water..."

#16
Solmanian

Solmanian
  • Members
  • 1.744 Beiträge

JBPBRC wrote...

Alot of this can really be blamed on ME2 for not really advancing the plot in any meaningful way. Great new characters, horrible plot advancement.

The genophage plotline was developed far more than the main story in ME2 for instance, and it shows when its time comes up in ME3. And a good chunk of that is completely optional. Likewise with Legion and the Geth.

Speaking of Legion, does anything happen at all with just not doing his LM in ME2 and letting the heretics just have the virus?


I guess it is true that you can just jump from ME1 to ME3. But ME2 importence is by expanding the player interaction with the MEverse. Introducing more of the krogan culture, putting more background on the mysterious cerberus organization, etc. Without it ME3 would've been a much smaller game, and you would need NPC's to give you an infodump every five minutes.

#17
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25.174 Beiträge
@Dr_Extrem:
I didn't say there was ample foreshadowing. My hypothesis is that the writers may have perceived what there is as enough, where it really wasn't from the players' perspective, and a possible reason for that cognitive dissonance..

Bearbeitet von Ieldra2, 15 Dezember 2012 - 05:00 .


#18
JBPBRC

JBPBRC
  • Members
  • 3.444 Beiträge

Solmanian wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Alot of this can really be blamed on ME2 for not really advancing the plot in any meaningful way. Great new characters, horrible plot advancement.

The genophage plotline was developed far more than the main story in ME2 for instance, and it shows when its time comes up in ME3. And a good chunk of that is completely optional. Likewise with Legion and the Geth.

Speaking of Legion, does anything happen at all with just not doing his LM in ME2 and letting the heretics just have the virus?


I guess it is true that you can just jump from ME1 to ME3. But ME2 importence is by expanding the player interaction with the MEverse. Introducing more of the krogan culture, putting more background on the mysterious cerberus organization, etc. Without it ME3 would've been a much smaller game, and you would need NPC's to give you an infodump every five minutes.


Precisely my point, thank you. ME2 had great characters and lots of flavor with the universe in general, but it put the Reaper plotline on the backburner--never advancing it more than "Collectors are capturing humans to build a Terminator".

#19
Dr_Extrem

Dr_Extrem
  • Members
  • 4.092 Beiträge

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Dr_Extrem:
I didn't say there was ample foreshadowing. My hypothesis is that the writers may have perceived what there is as enough, where it really wasn't from the players' perspective, and a possible reason for that cognitive dissonance..


absolutely .. thats what io wanted to point out - not criticise .. i understood your intention.

my guess is, that they constructed the organic vs. synthtic tzhing in the early stages of me3.

there is only little information in me2 outside the geth/quarian conflict, and that just looks like the continuation from me1.

me2 focusses more on genetic diversity - you can fint this in many sidemissions and character stories. this looked more like an upbuilding for a new plot or rsolution than the geth/quarian "subplot".

#20
DoomsdayDevice

DoomsdayDevice
  • Members
  • 2.353 Beiträge
I think something entirely different.

The games try to condition the players into accepting synthetic life as equal. By showing the Geth as innocent victims of organic prejudice against AI, we sympathize with them.

IMO the game tried so hard to make you feel this way about synthetics, so we will empathize with the Reapers in the ending and fall for their manipulations.

The reason why the horror aspects of the Reapers were cranked up to eleven, is to remind you that they are something different altogether. It's a warning.

The manipulation is clever; even Javik, who is undoubtedly racist in his attitude towards synthetics, is cleverly used to make players feel sympathetic towards synthetics. And I'm not saying this is wrong.

But there's a very important underlying warning in all of Javik's hate speaches: at face value, it seems like he just hates any type of machines, but there's more to it. What he's actually warning you for, is how the Reapers manipulate the synthetics of every cycle into conflict with organics. The Geth are completely analogous to the Zha'til.

There's nothing inherently wrong with synthetic life, it should be treated as equal... the problem is that the Reapers mess with synthetics, so they become our enemies. Just because Javik is so racist, players are all too quick to dismiss his warnings, and trust the Geth.

If you let Legion use the Reaper code to achieve true AI status and make peace with the Quarians, the Geth will start uploading themselves into the suits of the Quarians, to help boost their immune systems.

But think about it, Legion used Reaper code. Reaper code can rewrite itself. What if, over time, the Reaper code rewrites itself, and the AI seizes control of the Quarians? We could have a new hybrid 'Collector' enemy on our hands.

I think it resembles a really devious trap in which Legion simply can't pass up instant ascension, and Shepard goes along because he doesn't want to kill either of his friends, all in the name of everlasting peace between synthetics and organics. Throw in Legion's sacrifice and we've got ourselves a beautiful case of synthesis foreshadowing.

It would be so devious. We think we're making peace between synthetics and organics, the Geth think they ascend to true AI status, the Quarians think they'll all benefit from this, but the Reapers have the last laugh.

I wouldn't be surprised if this turned out to be the case in a sequel.

By not being able to withstand using the gifts of the Reapers, we once again pave the road to hell with good intentions.

Synthesis is analogous to this: you think you do the right thing by making eternal peace between organics and synthetics, but by accepting the Reaper solution, you once again accept the paths they laid out before us, and develop along the paths they desire.

You'll do it with the best of intentions, but it's a trap. You're making peace, but not in the way you envisioned it.

Bearbeitet von DoomsdayDevice, 15 Dezember 2012 - 05:16 .


#21
Jadebaby

Jadebaby
  • Members
  • 13.229 Beiträge
The only people who can answer this thread are the writers themselves.

And honestly, if anyone deserves it, it's Ieldra2.

Good luck.

Nice thread. But I hope the writer's interpretation was not that synthetics are fundamentally different, because given the character development of EDI and Legion. They shouldn't be.

#22
jtav

jtav
  • Members
  • 13.965 Beiträge
It feels like there was a shift between 1 and 2. There are no friendly synthetics in 1. The geth might have been wronged but they're husking people as warnings and what are implied to be non-heretic gath are invading the Armstrong Cluster. EDI/Hannibal nearly kills you. It's only in 2 that they are anoying less than a menace.

#23
Dr_Extrem

Dr_Extrem
  • Members
  • 4.092 Beiträge

jtav wrote...

It feels like there was a shift between 1 and 2. There are no friendly synthetics in 1. The geth might have been wronged but they're husking people as warnings and what are implied to be non-heretic gath are invading the Armstrong Cluster. EDI/Hannibal nearly kills you. It's only in 2 that they are anoying less than a menace.


the geth outside the vail (the independent ones) were only observing .. we (citadel races) had just no clue, that they are different faction inside the geth network. we just lacked the information.

to me, legion was "just" a new data source for the geth/quarian conflict. it certainly looked that way in me2.

all information it (legion) provided was about the morning war and the geth .. not about the general problem bewteen synthetics and organics .. in fact, tthe rest of the geth, are isolationsist, who were awaiting the return of the creators. they were relativly peaceful in me2.

this even makes the ending more confusing .. 95% of the geth are relativly peaceful - only 5% joined the reapers (the enemy). from the me3 pov, the catalyst was part of the problem he tried to solve. the geth were peaceful, until sovereign showed up. the reapers created this cycles "problem" in the first place.

this could be seen as a hint, that they did not really plan it at all.

#24
Femlob

Femlob
  • Members
  • 1.643 Beiträge
Excellent thread, Ieldra2.

The only people who can answer this thread are the writers themselves.


And they never will. Likely because they're not allowed to, and possibly because they simply never thought this far ahead. It's one of those things that could make me destroy small inanimate objects out of frustration - if only I hadn't already been so jaded.

It's a damn shame to see something that could've been grand reduced to nothing because a handful of people f*cked up.

#25
Jadebaby

Jadebaby
  • Members
  • 13.229 Beiträge
Was that meant to be a pun?