171 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

eddieoctane wrote...

Perhaps I didn't chose the best possible words. I meant that the Geth weren't this frighteningly unknowable existence. They had a different process, but were still relatable enough for the whole "organics and synthetics are too different to get along" spiel to make as much sense as BioWare intended. The Geth weren't alien enough for everyone to not be able to get along. Even the "consensus" thing was akin to democracy. Different, yes, but not so different that we should always try to destroy them.

Honestly, I wish the ending would have stopped after "best seats in the house," before all this crap was introduced.

What causesthe conflicthas nothing to do with them being totaly different. It's because of how BOTH organics and synthetics think.
Both sides cause the conflict, not just synthetic. Note that most organics don't give the time to understand the geth in the game and the issues with synthetics rebeling also is based on how they are programmed. Them obaying their programing blindly can cause them to rebel. Like overlordand the VI insident in ME2.

[Femlob]

Steelcan wrote...

The Dark Energy plotline was worse than the star child.

Translation: My crystal ball tells me that something I've never read in full is worse than something I've seen in the game - because reasons, man.

[TheProtheans]

dreman9999 wrote...

TheProtheans wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The Dark Energy plotline was worse than the star child.

Depends what you rate it on.
Makes less sense? No not really, nothing in Mass effect 3 makes any sense.
Uneventful, boring? Impossible to say, what we got now is lackluster.
So you must rate on something else.

But anyway I don't think Bioware copying other peoples work should be rewarded.

Why are you even here any more?

Because I love the Mass effect universe.

[dreman9999]

o Ventus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Were you deaf and blind when you looked into David's memories? David's memory shows there was no VI. His brother only used him "ALONE".
That was a lie to coverup what he was really doing.

Were you? In those same memories, one of the Cerberus scientists directly says "the VI has gone rogue, David can't control it" (paraphrased).

No he did not.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 décembre 2012 - 07:55 .

[Applepie_Svk]

MegaSovereign wrote...

How does humanity's genetic diversity solve the dark energy problem?

Dunno it´s space magic all the way down... but it makes a feeling that ME3 wasn´t in total discontent with rest of ME trilogy...

[AlexMBrennan]

Here's the hypothesis I propose as an answer: there was a fundamental disconnect between the writers and the players about how we would react to synthetic life forms in general and how we would consider them as life forms. In detail:

I think the problem is that the writers consider organic and synthetic life inherently different and inevitably at odds whereas organic species are inherently peaceful, which they completely fail to sell - all examples of conflict (e.g. morning war) are ultimately very human (quarians were scared of the geth, and decided to nuke them before they could grow to strong)

You can't keep doing that and have Godchild come out at the end and tell us that the tech singularity is inevitable.

[dreman9999]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Here's the hypothesis I propose as an answer: there was a fundamental disconnect between the writers and the players about how we would react to synthetic life forms in general and how we would consider them as life forms. In detail:

I think the problem is that the writers consider organic and synthetic life inherently different and inevitably at odds whereas organic species are inherently peaceful, which they completely fail to sell - all examples of conflict (e.g. morning war) are ultimately very human (quarians were scared of the geth, and decided to nuke them before they could grow to strong)

You can't keep doing that and have Godchild come out at the end and tell us that the tech singularity is inevitable.

The writers never applied or see that organics life as inheritly peaceful. They wouldnot havethekrogan or Javik if they did.

Your missing the fact here that the catalyst is only doing what it programed to do. An organic told it to solve the problem. That the only reason why it's doing this.

[Ieldra]

IsaacShep wrote...
And no, they didn't want the players to agree with the Catalyst. Why would they if they THEMSELVES established that the Catalyst is wrong?

???
Where did they do that?

[o Ventus]

dreman9999 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Were you deaf and blind when you looked into David's memories? David's memory shows there was no VI. His brother only used him "ALONE".
That was a lie to coverup what he was really doing.

Were you? In those same memories, one of the Cerberus scientists directly says "the VI has gone rogue, David can't control it" (paraphrased).

No he did not.

Link doesn't work.

[Dr_Extrem]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

not from the catalysts pov ..

it just atstes, that synthetics will kill organics and that the organics only fault is, to create synthetics in the first place.

but this does not really matter .. even if they intended to foreshadow the conflict between synthetics and organics as the overarching plot, it was not very successful. the big reapers showing up or sending their pawns were just too obvious.

I think you should revisit the conversation because that's not exactly how it goes.

Organics create synthetics to improve their own existence. In order to fullfill their purpose, synthetics must be allowed to evolve faster than their creators. When this occurs, synthetics no longer want to be tools. Because of this, conflict is inevitable.

Outside of this, I don't particularly agree that this conflict will result in the 100% death rate of organics. Hence why I opt for the Destroy ending.

i maybe oversimplified the matter ... shame on me ..

but still, the reapers and their pawns were too obvious as the overarching plot. to the majority, the synthetic vs. organic-plot was a side plot, resolved on rannoch.

Yea, the series seemed to change directions a lot. I still notice some of that Dark Energy foreshadowing. That subplot seems to be just hanging there for now.

my guess is that dark energy was meant to take a big place in me3 ... but they dropped it for the organic vs. synthetic theme .. (what failed even in me3) ... at this point, me2 was already shipped and could not be altered.

they changed something big between me2 and 3 ...


dark energy gets more attention than organics vs, synthecits (outside the geth/quarian conflict).

I don't know about it getting more attention, but it feels weird to introduce the conflict without ever resolving it. I think it'll be revisited through DLC or maybe in a future Mass Effect game.

my approach is more practical .. it was dropped, because drew .k left the writing team .. it was obviously his brainchild.

i think, that the plot was just dropped and not mentioned again ..

Hardly practicaly thinking.

Just because he came up with the plotline that doesn't mean the other writers can't build on it. For example, the writers trade the characters and subplots they are responsible for every game. It was probably dropped because it sounds more convoluted to link the dark energy issue to the Reaper's motivations, which is what Drew K was planning.

sometimes it is not about "being able" to do something .. sometimes, its about "wanting".. or not wanting to do it.

drew k left the team for a reason .. i dont know and i do not want to know ..

the buildup was there in me2 .. and it was dropped in me3 - together with drew k leaving the writing team. artists are a strange bunch and not easy to understand.

[dreman9999]

o Ventus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Were you deaf and blind when you looked into David's memories? David's memory shows there was no VI. His brother only used him "ALONE".
That was a lie to coverup what he was really doing.

Were you? In those same memories, one of the Cerberus scientists directly says "the VI has gone rogue, David can't control it" (paraphrased).

No he did not.

Link doesn't work.

http://www.youtube.c...motZfff4#t=531s

[TheProtheans]

Dreman9999, the description for Overlord says another story.
More specifically the details about David Archer

[dreman9999]

Ieldra2 wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...
And no, they didn't want the players to agree with the Catalyst. Why would they if they THEMSELVES established that the Catalyst is wrong?

???
Where did they do that?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here but The catalyst did say he's only doing this under orders of the leviatheans.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 décembre 2012 - 08:17 .

[Dr_Extrem]

do not argue with a rock.

[dreman9999]

TheProtheans wrote...

Dreman9999, the description for Overlord says another story.
More specifically the details about David Archer

Show it to me in the actual dlc please. Not an easiablly changealbe wiki page.

[TheProtheans]

I suppose it might be in the Codex too.
I'm not gonna play through or watch the entire mission to find points to prove someone who is wrong that they're indeed wrong.

I suggest you replay it before you make yourself appear as a fool again.

[Applepie_Svk]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

do not argue with a rock.

[dreman9999]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

do not argue with a rock.

That alone speaks volumes on the issue the catalyst brings up about synthetics vs organics. He is just a machine doing whathe is programed to do. He never saw it as an issue on his own. His creators did.

[dreman9999]

TheProtheans wrote...

I suppose it might be in the Codex too.
I'm not gonna play through or watch the entire mission to find points to prove someone who is wrong that they're indeed wrong.

I suggest you replay it before you make yourself appear as a fool again.

You did not notice I put a you tube link of the mission up. I checked first.
Sorry but the vi was a lie by Dr. Archer. David's memory proves it's a lie.

[TheProtheans]

You're not going to stop, so to add insult to injury I skipped to the end of the video you post.

Because I am feeling lazy, I just skipped to the end of your video to the missions completion description and for some reason a rogue VI been shut down got mentioned

[dreman9999]

TheProtheans wrote...

You're not going to stop, so to add insult to injury I skipped to the end of the video you post.

Because I am feeling lazy, I just skipped to the end of your video to the missions completion description and for some reason a rogue VI been shut down got mentioned

Sorry but unless you can point were it's mention in the end conversations with Archer, then it not the case of a simple rogue AI.
David is the one that cause all the problems.

[Wulfram]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Statements from Bioware and evidence from ME2. They said they decided the overarching plot "early". Also, had the old Dark Energy plot still been on the table when ME2 was produced, they wouldn't have cut off the dark energy angle of the Haestrom mission. At the same time, it can't have been much earlier, or that part of the Haestrom mission wouldn't have existed in the first place. Given that missions are designed early in development and most of the development time goes into production I conclude the decision must've been made early in the development cycle of ME2.

But ME2 massively downplays the Organic vs Synthetic angle, introducing Organic enemies and relatable Synthetic allies.  As does ME3 in fact, aside from the ending, one conversation with the Reaper after Rannoch and the DLC that was written after the rest of the game.

ME1 is the only game which fits with the idea that Organic/Synthetic conflict is any sort of theme.

[Mcfly616]

Not sure how it "failed". I guess that would be your opinion on the matter. (Which you are entitled to)

If anything, I think they were trying to create a dilemma for the player. And I think they did a good job of that. I spent the entire trilogy knowing that one way or another I was going to make the Reapers go "boom".....but when I was finally given the options I sat there for a minute, and actually thought about it.

[Ieldra]

@Wulfram:
Well, ME2 downplayed pretty much everything but the characters, but it's certainly odd for ME3. Only the Rannoch plot provides a fundament - and Javik, which makes it even more annoying that he was cut out of the game for DLC.

@Mcfly616:
I said the rationale for the cyle failed for most players, which I'm fairly confident is true. The final choice as such, the dilemma it creates and the final outcome of every choice (all EC version) is very much ok for me personally and that probably didn't fail for nearly as many players, though still for a significant number.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 décembre 2012 - 08:44 .

[Dr_Extrem]

dreman9999 wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

do not argue with a rock.

That alone speaks volumes on the issue the catalyst brings up about synthetics vs organics. He is just a machine doing whathe is programed to do. He never saw it as an issue on his own. His creators did.

qoud erat demonstrandum


i dont know if i want to cry or laugh ..