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[IntoTheDarkness]

I thought a hegemonic religion and its power(templars in DA) are always meant to become corrupt, and it is only more likely for Chantry because hundreds of years have passed since the death of Andraste.

Every religion enevitably falls unless state and religion are seprated as in modern society. Chanty in the game looks too altruistic for a religion with huge power it possesses.

[ReallyRue]

Well, the Chantry seems pretty grey to me.

It has its protecting-people-from-mages-and-demons thing, and its refuge-for-the-needy thing, and perhaps provides a certain amount of unfication for Thedas (especially in opposition to the Qunari/Tevinter). It also has its nice people who embody the better things about it, like Ser Otto, the nice templar from the alienage in DAO. I liked that guy.

But it's still 'corrupt' or bad or whatever you want to call it in other ways. Some of the mage Circles are incredibly oppressive, and Meredith was able to use Chantry law to apparently murder a bunch of people on a flimsy pretext. People like Alric get away with rape. People like Mettin get away with murdering families just for helping mage relatives. Those with authority ignore it. And fat chance of getting any respect or kindness if you're a Dalish elf.

Really, it has its bad sides and its good sides. How much it has of either probably depends largely on the Divine, and based on the books, the current one doesn't seem so bad.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Are you trying to troll, OP?

[Nerevar-as]

Not that long before the start of the game they supported Orlesian expansion, which was quite brutal. So they don´t seem like good people at all to me.

[The Elder King]

The Chantry isn't definitely portrayed ad "good". I'd say it's portrayed as"grey, with good and a bad things. Though I'd say that the definition of the Chantry as either good, grey or bad is open to interpretation, based on how how the people view the actions that the Chantry did during its history. It's obvious for someone who read the mage-templar and chantry thread that there are people who see the Chantry as completely/mostrly good organization, and other people that see the Chantry as an evil organization.
Anyway, I think that this thread is going to end bad.

[lil yonce]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Oh boy, here comes Xil!

I've come to believe that she is correct about the Chantry. Not the Maker, but the Chantry, yes.

[The Elder King]

Youth4Ever wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Oh boy, here comes Xil!

I've come to believe that she is correct about the Chantry. Not the Maker, but the Chantry, yes.

My opinion of the Maker (and Andraste) and the Chantry are different, to the point that I like the fact that in both games you can criticize the Chantry's operate without being necessarily atheist/believer of another religion, because I don't like to be forced in being a follower of the Chantry or an atheist/believer of another religion,  but my opinion of the Chantry is a neutral one. I'd like to have the option to reform it, but I don't think it's an evil organization.

Modifié par hhh89, 15 décembre 2012 - 11:07 .

[lil yonce]

EntropicAngel wrote...

I don't, but that's just me.

I think there are good people in the Chantry like Leliana and Justinia V, but the Chantry as a whole is not a good organization. The power grabbing and expansion... It badly needs to be defanged. I'll feel better about it once the Templar Order/Circle of Magi is gone or restructured.

[IntoTheDarkness]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Are you trying to troll, OP?

Maybe to some folks who's brain capacity is limited to only discussing romance options for an upcoming game, yes, I might seem like trolling because I dared talking about a fictional religion.

Thedas is based on medieval Europe and it's no secret that christianity persecuted the innocent and commited countless atrocities at that time. Their corruption only diminished after church's power over politics dissipated. Chantry's 'grey'ness is still far too altruistic compared to any historical organizations with their level of power.

Now tell me why you think I'm trolling. On the other hand, what you did, throwing a random accusation in one line without an explanation, is what's called spamming.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 15 décembre 2012 - 11:47 .

[Rinshikai10]

I believe you have is a good example EntroicAngel. The actions of a few should not condemn all. Be it the Meredith's actions to justify her treatment of Mages, or Justinia's good intentions. Neither one can represent the whole regardless of who the are.

[Ausstig]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

I think there are good people in the Chantry like Leliana and Justinia V, but the Chantry as a whole is not a good organization. The power grabbing and expansion... It badly needs to be defanged. I'll feel better about it once the Templar Order/Circle of Magi is gone or restructured.

I don't think that the actions of individuals can be a condemnation for the whole group.

Isn't that what Meredith did?

It's only unfair when it happens to mages. :innocent:

[lil yonce]

EntropicAngel wrote...

I don't think that the actions of individuals can be a condemnation for the whole group. Isn't that what Meredith did?

I'm not working from individual actions. The historical Chantry was dangerous, and it appears most of the attitudes it carried have survived in the modern Chantry. The Chantry's close ties with the Orlesian gov. also raise too many red flags. There's also the two Exalted Marches that were closely related to power and political gain. The belief in divine right over mages. Striking verses from the Chant of Light out of spite. I think its wise to be wary of the Chantry. Their motivations are questionable in many instances.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 16 décembre 2012 - 12:05 .

[lil yonce]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Shhhh, don't say that part. They'll attack you.

I'm not a Mage supporter, btw. I defended Meredith's POV for annuling the Circle just recently in the DA2 forums.

[The Elder King]

Youth4Ever wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

I don't think that the actions of individuals can be a condemnation for the whole group. Isn't that what Meredith did?

I'm not working from individual actions. The historical Chantry was dangerous, and it appears most of the attitudes it carried have survived in the modern Chantry. The Chantry's close ties with the Orlesian gov. also raise too many red flags. There's also the two Exalted Marches that were closely related to power and political gain. The belief in divine right over mages. Striking verses from the Chant of Light out of spite. I think its wise to be wary of the Chantry. Their motivations are questionable in many instances.

Which ones? As far as I remember, the only EM related to power and political's gain would be the ones against the elves. The others were against the Black Chantry and the Imperium (religious problem) and the qunari (survival). Did I miss some EM?

[IntoTheDarkness]

Prosecution of mages(who are not many in numbers) have a lot to do with the existence of Tavinter Empire. Mages corrupted the golden city according to their bibles, so they are their ideological enemy, so to speak.

Chantry does lots of charities for the poor and refuges. They provide shelters for the weak and they do not mingle with politics of a nation king of which just died by darkspawn. (DA:O) They are not angels, but not corrupt as most organizations of their status are supposed to be either.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 16 décembre 2012 - 12:00 .

[lil yonce]

hhh89 wrote...

Which ones? As far as I remember, the only EM related to power and political's gain would be the ones against the elves. The others were against the Black Chantry and the Imperium (religious problem) and the qunari (survival). Did I miss some EM?

I consider the EM against the Imperial Chantry to be a power/political struggle for supremacy.

[pmac_tk421]

I'd say there's a lot more bad portrayal than good(depending on choices you made). They did commit genocide in Arlathan, and then there Petrice, and the circle, and a ton of other ****.

[The Elder King]

Youth4Ever wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Which ones? As far as I remember, the only EM related to power and political's gain would be the ones against the elves. The others were against the Black Chantry and the Imperium (religious problem) and the qunari (survival). Did I miss some EM?

I consider the EM against the Imperial Chantry to be a power/political struggle for supremacy.

Which the Chantry wouldn't have done if there wasn't the schism. That's the main reason that lead to those EM.
Of course, there are political interest involved. But I don't think that the main reason is the supremacy over the Imperium. The Chantry would've proclaimed an EM long before if this was the reason, since there were always problems between the Chantry in Orlais and the Chantry in Tevinter.

[The Elder King]

pmac_tk421 wrote...

I'd say there's a lot more bad portrayal than good(depending on choices you made). They did commit genocide in Arlathan, and then there Petrice, and the circle, and a ton of other ****.

You meant the Dales. Arlathan fell against the Imperium before the Blights.

[Manic Sheep]

Are you trolling OP? I honestly can not tell.

Well there is the whole mage oppression of mages, getting their soldiers hocked on a substance only they have control of so they can't rebel or leave (which may or may not even do anything for them. Alistair uses his Templar training just fine) and unless I’m mistaken religion was also use as an excuse to invade the Dales so they aren't all great. They have some good points and some bad points I guess.
I know ridiculously evil and corrupt religious orders are common in games but not all have to be done that way.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 16 décembre 2012 - 12:28 .

[lil yonce]

hhh89 wrote...

Which the Chantry wouldn't have done if there wasn't the schism. That's the main reason that lead to those EM.
Of course, there are political interest involved. But I don't think that the main reason is the supremacy over the Imperium. The Chantry would've proclaimed an EM long before if this was the reason, since there were always problems between the Chantry in Orlais and the Chantry in Tevinter.

I do. They want their message on magic to be the only message on magic. As long as the Imperial Chantry existed their message that mages can't rule and have to be kept in Circle is openly challenged. And I think the only reason they didn't call an EM agaisnt the Imperial Chantry sooner was because the Imperial Chantry is a formidiable ally. They never beat them either. The fourth blight finally brought a centuries long stalemate to an end.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 16 décembre 2012 - 12:21 .