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[Steppenwolf]

Secret group of operatives that do the bidding of a single person? Check
Internment camps for people who are different? Check
Devious means of controlling believers? Check

The Seekers, Circles and lyrium-addicted Templars would like to have a word with you, OP.

[IntoTheDarkness]

BasilKarlo wrote...

Secret group of operatives that do the bidding of a single person? Check
Internment camps for people who are different? Check
Devious means of controlling believers? Check

The Seekers, Circles and lyrium-addicted Templars would like to have a word with you, OP.

They've got many tender-hearted revered mothers, and they help people in needs as general principle. I didn't cliam Chantry is an angel, but only that they are much less evil than their historical counterparts.

Christianity back in medieval age was very closely attached to politics and whatever atrocities and oppressions done to common people, the religion was in complicity in those acts. Torture, rape, extortion, kidnap, murders, you-name-it. Chantry may seem evil in modern standard, but they are not evil, considering power they hold. I would rather have Chantry to rule my village over any typical medieval lords.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 16 décembre 2012 - 12:53 .

[The Elder King]

Youth4Ever wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Which the Chantry wouldn't have done if there wasn't the schism. That's the main reason that lead to those EM.
Of course, there are political interest involved. But I don't think that the main reason is the supremacy over the Imperium. The Chantry would've proclaimed an EM long before if this was the reason, since there were always problems between the Chantry in Orlais and the Chantry in Tevinter.

I do. They want their message on magic to be the only message on magic. As long as the Imperial Chantry existed their message that mages can't rule and have to be kept in Circle is openly challenged. And I think the only reason they didn't call an EM agaisnt the Imperial Chantry sooner was because the Imperial Chantry is a formidiable ally. They never beat them either. The fourth blight finally brought a centuries long stalemate to an end.

They weren't really "allies". Orlais and Tevinter fough togethere during the Second or Third Blight, but it was due to survival.
I agree that the Imperium is strong. It's probably stronger than any Andrastian nations. But the fourth blight didn't end the stalemate. The Imperium can't go and invade the rest of Thedas with the qunari on their back. The stalemate will end when a clear victor will result from the struggle between the qunari and the Imperim. The winner then is free to invade the rest of Thedas, that could be weakened from the mage-templar war and the civil wars that might happen (we know that one is already happening).
Anyway, did you mean the fourth blight, or the fifth? I don't remember war between the Imperim and the Chantry after the 4th Blight. There was the qunari arrival in Thedas and the Exalted Marches against them, but not against the Imperium. They wouldn't have the strenght to fight both qunari and the Imperium (and the rest of Thedas should be grateful that it's impossible for qunari and the Imperium to form an alliance, otherwise they would pretty much screwed. They'd be unstoppable).

[The Elder King]

BasilKarlo wrote...

Secret group of operatives that do the bidding of a single person? Check
Internment camps for people who are different? Check
Devious means of controlling believers? Check

The Seekers, Circles and lyrium-addicted Templars would like to have a word with you, OP.

Which Bioware said it's necessary for having templar abilities (and that the Alistair's dialogue in DAO was wrong) and they suggested that they might implement ingesting lyrium from the PC for having access to the templar spec (which would be terrific, in my opinion).
Not that the Chantry wouldn't probably use the lyrium on the templars for controlling them, but it's not the case. And in the end, the Chantry's opinion on mages is more important for the templars than their addiction, since they left the Chantry.

[Ninja Stan]

Let's keep this discussion DA and lore related, please.

[DarkSpiral]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...

Secret group of operatives that do the bidding of a single person? Check
Internment camps for people who are different? Check
Devious means of controlling believers? Check

The Seekers, Circles and lyrium-addicted Templars would like to have a word with you, OP.

They've got many tender-hearted revered mothers, and they help people in needs as general principle. I didn't cliam Chantry is an angel, but only that they are much less evil than their historical counterparts.

Christianity back in medieval age was very closely attached to politics and whatever atrocities and oppressions done to common people, the religion was in complicity in those acts. Torture, rape, extortion, kidnap, murders, you-name-it. Chantry may seem evil in modern standard, but they are not evil, considering power they hold. I would rather have Chantry to rule my village over any typical medieval lords.

What we've seen so far of the Chantry is essentially the local level.  I'm no apologist for the medival Catholic Church, but that above description fits the historical Church as much as the fictional Chantry.  There were good people that wore the cloth.  They helped the needy in general.  As we have yet to see the seat of power in the Chantry in full swing (possibly in DA3?) I think your comparison lacks the proper weight.  For all we know, the Grand Cathedral is in fact a hotbed of politics, sin, and corruption, just as the Vatican has been at various points in history.

I personally believe that the Chantry was designed with the same principle as the rest of Thedas: shades of grey, not black and white.  Its more interesting that way.  If we could all definitively agree that <insert organization> are completely evil or good, then it wouldn't really be Draon Age anymore.

[MichaelStuart]

The Chantry isn't corrupt, because the people who run it believe in what the Chantry stands for.
The problem is that the same people can't agree on how the Chantry should implement what they stand for.

[Doctoglethorpe]

Who says it isn't?

In fact, after reading Asunder, I'd say the previous "administration" if you will of Divine Beatrix the Third was pretty terrible.  The new Devine wanted to fix things, but it was too late and now the whole system has fallen apart. 

[lil yonce]

hhh89 wrote...

They weren't really "allies". Orlais and Tevinter fought together during the Second or Third Blight, but it was due to survival.

I didn't mention anything about the Orlais and Teveinter being allies.

I agree that the Imperium is strong. It's probably stronger than any Andrastian nations. But the fourth blight didn't end the stalemate. The Imperium can't go and invade the rest of Thedas with the qunari on their back. The stalemate will end when a clear victor will result from the struggle between the qunari and the Imperim. The winner then is free to invade the rest of Thedas, that could be weakened from the mage-templar war and the civil wars that might happen (we know that one is already happening).

Anyway, did you mean the fourth blight, or the fifth? I don't remember war between the Imperim and the Chantry after the 4th Blight.

No, I mean the fouth blight ended the actual fighting between the two Chantries. The struggle is currently a Cold War.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 16 décembre 2012 - 01:27 .

[Rinshikai10]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

Who says it isn't?

In fact, after reading Asunder, I'd say the previous "administration" if you will of Divine Beatrix the Third was pretty terrible.  The new Devine wanted to fix things, but it was too late and now the whole system has fallen apart. 

I agree fully with this.

[Plaintiff]

 It looks pretty corrupt from where I stand, but it was a short slide, given that it's inherently bigoted and hypocritical.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 16 décembre 2012 - 02:06 .

[zambingo]

Corrupt Businessman = Corrupt Business? Possibly, but not necessarily.

Christianity = Bad or Bad Christians = Bad? I'll peg the latter, which also isn't a blanket tag it should be noted.

Extrapolate to all social organizations and enjoy!

Excluding the **** Party, the Klan and or Build-A-Bear.

Edit: Haha! It's censored. Neato. Umm, for those that don't connect the dots I wasn't refereing to a party that was so poorly put together and or attended it was a **** party. I'm talking about that organtization that was started by Charlie Chaplin.

Modifié par zambingo, 16 décembre 2012 - 02:26 .

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Here is the definition of "corrupt" according to Merriam-Webster Dictionary. In both the intransitive and transitive  forms of the verb as well as the adjective form of the word, the Chantry is corrupt according to several of the meanings, e.g. "b[/i] : to degrade with unsound principles or moral values", as cited by the examples of Knight-Commander Meredith's extremism and Ser Otto Alrik and his "Tranquil Solution".

While neither of the two examples are necessarily representative of the Chantry as a whole, they demonstrate an abuse of power allowed to be taken to dangerous extremes. In the case of Meredith she is able to use scripture and a broad interpretation of the law in order to justify her actions. That, in my mind, is a form of corruption.

Ser Otto is able to pervert the Templar modus operandi and influence other Templars to join him in his insane solution to the mage problem, by tainting their world view and thus morally debasing them. This is the behaviour of a highly corrupt individual.

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 16 décembre 2012 - 02:30 .

[Typhrus]

DarkSpiral wrote...

IntoTheDarkness wrote...


They've got many tender-hearted revered mothers, and they help people in needs as general principle. I didn't cliam Chantry is an angel, but only that they are much less evil than their historical counterparts.

Christianity back in medieval age was very closely attached to politics and whatever atrocities and oppressions done to common people, the religion was in complicity in those acts. Torture, rape, extortion, kidnap, murders, you-name-it. Chantry may seem evil in modern standard, but they are not evil, considering power they hold. I would rather have Chantry to rule my village over any typical medieval lords.

What we've seen so far of the Chantry is essentially the local level.  I'm no apologist for the medival Catholic Church, but that above description fits the historical Church as much as the fictional Chantry.  There were good people that wore the cloth.  They helped the needy in general.  As we have yet to see the seat of power in the Chantry in full swing (possibly in DA3?) I think your comparison lacks the proper weight.  For all we know, the Grand Cathedral is in fact a hotbed of politics, sin, and corruption, just as the Vatican has been at various points in history.

I personally believe that the Chantry was designed with the same principle as the rest of Thedas: shades of grey, not black and white.  Its more interesting that way.  If we could all definitively agree that <insert organization> are completely evil or good, then it wouldn't really be Draon Age anymore.

You are indeed more correct DarkSpiral, not that one can be entirely correct in history . One only needs to take a cursory glance at English medieval History and the Black Death to see the extremes of altruism and selfishness within the Catholic church. English kings were known to have political stoushes with Archbishops, and not to mention the dissolution of the Catholic Church under Henry the VIII's reign. You also have to consider the Black Death (at a European wide level) to also see a dichotomy- namely some priests decided to tend to their flock during such times and died with them. Or as some other more self-centred priests did, left their flock and sought their own betterment and survival.

History also shows that noble families were quite happy to send their sons off for military service under the king (they also inevitably inherited land as well) or send their other sons to Church. Women  were often sent to the Nunneries when they passed certain age with no husband. One should also keep in mind, that much like the Dragon Age universe, it is the religious institution that we get most of our history from.

Any form of human institution will have some corruption within it. It is simply human nature to try and tilt the system to one's favour. This goes for religious institutions no matter their creed or systems of government (democratic or authoritarian).

long and short of it is, that the Chantry at a local level is very much more likely to be benevolent and relatively less corrupt than the major centre of political power. This was the same for the real life Catholic Church.

I'll stop my mini essay now haha.

[Xilizhra]

The Chantry is pretty damned corrupt, certainly a major purveyor of tyrannical oppression.

[Iakus]

Any human society is bound to be susceptible to human corruption (or elven, or dwarven) I doubt the Chantry's any more resistant.

From what I've read, the previous Divine, Beatrix III was a puppet of the templars and after reigning for decades, was not exactly all there mentally by the end. We'll have to see what Justina V can do once the dust settles over this civil war.

[Xilizhra]

iakus wrote...

Any human society is bound to be susceptible to human corruption (or elven, or dwarven) I doubt the Chantry's any more resistant.

From what I've read, the previous Divine, Beatrix III was a puppet of the templars and after reigning for decades, was not exactly all there mentally by the end. We'll have to see what Justina V can do once the dust settles over this civil war.

Assuming, of course, that she hasn't already been incinerated.

[Iakus]

Possible. But she was alive as of the end of DA2 and seemed receptive towards reforming the Chantry's stance on mages (part of why the Templars split)

I don't think Leliana will let anything bad happen to her either

[Xilizhra]

Wasn't the Chantry's leadership blown up as part of the intro to DA3?

[Iakus]

There's an intro to DA3?

[esper]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

I think there are good people in the Chantry like Leliana and Justinia V, but the Chantry as a whole is not a good organization. The power grabbing and expansion... It badly needs to be defanged. I'll feel better about it once the Templar Order/Circle of Magi is gone or restructured.

I don't think that the actions of individuals can be a condemnation for the whole group.

Isn't that what Meredith did?

Those of us who are condemming the chantry is not condemming the individuals. We are condemming the structure which is too corrupt, a influentual group of it is relying on a dangerous understanding of the chant, helped support an empire with expansion dreams, helped imprison a whole group of people and failed to police those they put in power over those people and is generally suckish at the whole protection of the weak thing. Furthermore it is involved in things an orginized religion should never be involved in.

And then we haven't even touched the offical understand of the Chant where the Maker is basically and abusive father figure and his followers the abused who cannnot see how they are being treated do to their co-depency..

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

Wasn't the Chantry's leadership blown up as part of the intro to DA3?

iakus wrote...

There's an intro to DA3?

Xilzhra is talking about the survey, which isn't offical confirmation. There's nothing sure about what will be DA3's plot.

[Vilegrim]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

I think there are good people in the Chantry like Leliana and Justinia V, but the Chantry as a whole is not a good organization. The power grabbing and expansion... It badly needs to be defanged. I'll feel better about it once the Templar Order/Circle of Magi is gone or restructured.

I don't think that the actions of individuals can be a condemnation for the whole group.

Isn't that what Meredith did?

Meredith was going off the deep end and it looked like she was going to be called on that (Leliana was on a fact finding mission after all) so we can infer that Meredith was acting outside accepted parameters of behaviour.  We then come to the Sacred Marches and Orlesian expansion.  They wheren't outside said parameters, they where official policy, and the oppression of elves specifically and dwarves when they can get away with it remains a universal policy. 

When something is a universal policy it isn't 'the actions of individuals' anymore, it's for want of a better term corporate culture, the chantry is setup to be racist and exapansionistic.

Now people under it's aegis do good sometimes yes, but so do Tevinter Magisters, doesn't make the orgainsations that support them any less corrupt.

[Navasha]

The Chantry is hardly "pure" if thats what you are implying.

The templars are the military arm of the chantry. Keeping mages as slaves hardly seems 'pure'. The Chantry uses lyrium to enslave the templars, doesn't seem that "pure".

As with most religions and governments, they function well at a local level, but the farther removed and more levels of order are increased the more corrupt and dysfunctional they grow. I don't see the Chantry as any different in that regard.

If the divine can call an exalted march which wipes out the heretics and innocents alike, then I hardly see that as very noble myself.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

iakus wrote...

I don't think Leliana will let anything bad happen to her either

It's entirely possible Bioware will let you happen to her.