34 réponses à ce sujet

[OldTimeRadio]

Three times now in less than a month, I've been playing in a party on a server and when chatter came around to what we liked most about NWN, and I invariably mentioned making CC for it, the people I was with were all blank stares.  These were not unintelligent people, either.  They simply had no idea that there were quite a lot of people still making CC for NWN and they definitely had no idea that there was a challenge every month where CC makers would pick a theme and just make a bunch of stuff and then give it away for anyone and everyone to enjoy.

The second time this happened, I was actually with a fairly large group of 10-15 people, all in the same party.  There were 2-3 people who were openly incredulous that people were still happily crankiing out CC with any kind of regularity until I directed them here to the CC forum and to my YouTube channel.  I don't know about the other two times this happened but on the server I'm talking about there was a kind of tunnel vision based around CEP and the assumption that no new CEP releases meant no new content had been generated by the community.  I have no idea if that sort of misconception is widespread or not.

First time it was puzzling and I wrote it off.  Second time it was worrying.  Third time and I'm wondering if there is some kind of disconnect that needs to be bridged.

Questions:
* What, exactly, should be happening that...isn't? 
* How do you bridge the gap, if there really is one, between people making CC and people who (ideally) would be using it?
* Who, for instance, are the main consumers of the material created in the CCC and can anything be done to communicate more with them?
* If it's PW's or module builders, should we try to get them more involved in voting on the theme to raise awareness and interest?

Maybe I just picked some oddball servers to play on but if there is a disconnect, it would seem like a win-win for everyone involved if we do whatever it is we need to, to raise awareness.  I almost exclusively play on little out-of-the-way servers.  I assume this is a much bigger issue on smaller servers, but I don't really know.

Thoughts?

[henesua]

We need to direct people here. This is the central hub of communication. What else can be done?

I can imagine attempts at PR blasts for the community, but honestly I think simply telling other players about what is going on and where to see it is the thing to do.

[Pearls]

i dont think this is unusual actually, i found the exact same thing on a server i played lately where nobody even knew that bioware social existed for neverwinter nights, but i dont know what can be done to direct people to this forum without putting direct links in as many places as possible such as gog, its quite well hidden under all of the other bioware games

i still know some people who wont download haks except for cep and that makes me sad since theyre missing out on one of nwns best features =[

Modifié par Pearls, 15 décembre 2012 - 11:47 .

[T0r0]

Methinks the onus falls in some degree to the PW admins and although they are more than aware of custom content,it's still the belief that players won't DL extra content or if they do, it has to be super convenient, ergo only CEP. ... IMHO...

So to spread the word, involve the admins to spread the word via their forums maybe.. *shrugs*

Modifié par T0r0, 16 décembre 2012 - 12:00 .

[leo_x]

i'm not a CC creator and my perspective is from the PW, action side of things, so take my opinion with the salt.

most players i've met couldn't care less about what happens outside their favorite PW. (the link between a player's favorite PW and the game itself is worth pondering.) best hope: get PWs to continually utilize new CC: most people seem to care about things that can impact the game they play, at most. best best hope: a distribution model that doesn't disproportionately favor mass aggregation.

it seems to me this ties in with the whole gamespy thing, at least from my remembering of NWN history: gamespy matchmaking retarded the whole CC culture from a players and PW owners perspective.

For players it was impossible to know what they actually needed to have before logging in, so they tended towards those PWs that used what they already had (CEP).  I suspect a lot of people do not want to muck with installing haks/tlks for every server too.

For PW onwers, they wanted to make their servers as absolutely accessible as possible so they used what people already had (CEP) because every 'missing tlk' or 'missing hak' was a lost player.

Modifié par pope_leo, 16 décembre 2012 - 12:18 .

[OldTimeRadio]

@heneusa - "What else can be done?"  I dunno.  But I think the general "word of mouth" approach hasn't proven to be very effective so far.  After two years of the CCC, being mentioned on the podcast fairly regularly, the Vault submissions and at least some content being upped to the Neverwinter Nexus, I expected that more people would be aware that new CC is being made at all.

@Pearls - Glad I'm not the only one to experience something odd like this.  I think a lot of people tend to not come here unless they need something, usually.  The realization can be a little on the bleak side, LOL!  BTW, I used to buy into the whole stigma about players not being willing to download anything more than CEP but after seeing the number of players on the Bleach X server (who are required to download not just CEP but D20 as well!), I'm starting to think I may have misjudged what players will or won't do.  It's not uncommon on Bleach X to have...25-35 people on sometimes. 

@T0r0 - Yeah, I hear you about that.  I mentioned my counter-intuitive experience with the Bleach X server to Pearls, above, but that may be more a...like a niche thing.  I know the various Star Wars related servers were also able to get people to download considerable amounts of data on top of CEP, but again, maybe that's due to the nature of the content.  I know there are servers like Amethyst Dragon's Aenea, Higher Ground, et al. where they use CEP and then have their own haks on top of that (still being a fantasy setting).  I wonder how common that sort of setup actually is?  Maybe it's more common than generally thought.  Anyway, at least in my experience I agree about the onus being on the PW admins and, of course, that's always a tricky ine to walk for them for exactly the reasons pope_leo describes in his message.

@pope_leo - That's a great perspective, thanks.  You know, with new server browsers (in one form or another) popping up with some frequency, maybe it would be useful to have a field which gave the user an idea of where to go to get the content they need.  As to the "best hope", I agree.  Regardless of what the content is, IMO, it helps to establish the idea that there may be something new out there.  I didn't even think about the GameSpy side of things.  Boy, an auto-downloader would have helped so much.  That whole cycle sort of self-perpetuates, doesn't it?  I still hate logging into a server, getting a character made and all, only to find there's a missing file somewhere when I hit the Play button.

[henesua]

OldTimeRadio wrote...

@heneusa - "What else can be done?"  I dunno.  But I think the general "word of mouth" approach hasn't proven to be very effective so far.  After two years of the CCC, being mentioned on the podcast fairly regularly, the Vault submissions and at least some content being upped to the Neverwinter Nexus, I expected that more people would be aware that new CC is being made at all.

That isn't "word of mouth". Those are PR Blasts. In general I don't think they are effective. In the locations you mention it is likely only reaching people that are already here. I consider it to be preaching to the choir.

But you, OTR, are well respected here, and so I suspect that those you play with also respect your opinion. Just a word from you is likely worth a great deal. Amethyst Dragon is the same. Rolo. And so on. There are many here like you that keep the community alive by your mere presence. I'm not sure you realize that considering that you call word of mouth ineffective.

I don't have the same clout at all - mostly because I've done almost nothing in the NWN community - but I have spoken to those that I game with and encouraged them to at least open up accounts here. Some have done so.

If everyone here did the same, we'd all be better off. We each need to promote this community so that we get more new blood. Every PW should do the same. I agree that most PW communities do not look beyond their own PW forum. So if any of us are active on another forum, its a good idea to share stuff there that links back to interestng threads over here.

This in my opinion is the best strategy. Encourage every single one of us to be an advocate for whatever we like about this game, and link back here. Talk to other gamers. No need to be pushy. Just talk. Let them know what is happening and where it is happening.

A good thing Shadooow added to his Community Patch was to add mention of the Neverwinter Nights Community Site in the "tips" that appear during loadscreens to replace the old bioware board link. Things like that should happen on every PW. I'm using the community patch TLK, and have added a tip mention this board as well. Most of the players that I have played with however already know about this place. But who knows maybe sometime they are playing they'll see that and consider visiting.

It all helps.

No reason to be discouraged. I think you are doing just about everything you can. Just keep doing the same. No need to branch out more. I could possibly put more out there and improve matters and the rest of us can as well.

Yes, I know that I'm not just talking about improving knowledge of the new Community Content. But if more players visit the boards, they'll see the community content challenge. Maybe some will even participate. Its the new blood that we need. Anyway, enough of my blather.

[Wall3T]

this is a VERY good discussion

my personal take is that i see this on a daily basis, and many players arent even aware how cc even works (like somehow bioware pays(ed) cc users to create something then they (bioware) release it (no joke btw, ive had this discussion)

then the other part i notice is the ones who dont care where it comes as long as it still shows up (which brings up that point of many players assuming that no cc is being made anymore)

this just reminds me of the hundreds of users who never played the neverwinter campaigns (sou, and hotu included) and therefore arent aware of its iconic characters

[leo_x]

@OldTimeRadio - I've createad a thread for a Community Launcher / Auto-Downloader / Updater Project...

Not sure how much value it would be today, but what the heck...

[NWN_baba yaga]

not sure why i dont care about people not knowing we exist or that nwn is made exactly for what this topic is about. Nothing against to bring it up i´m just not sure how to feel about it;) But i support you anyway, however i can be of help.

[Rolo Kipp]

<danicing a little jig...>

*Good* discussion.

@ H: You underrate yourself, though my own incredibly high opinion of you didn't really start to skyrocket until I experienced your (alpha?) Arnheim. Which highlights the disconnect. You are a premium designer (your sound-work is quite simply brilliant), but how do people know to care?

@ OTR: Some of this comes back (as Pope_Leo mentioned above) to ease of incorporating all this great new stuff. We've talked privately about this before and I keep dropping teasers without a whole lot of interest, but a package manager that divorces content from design is *crucial*. Like your idea of using Leto to upgrade old mods (though I'm really thinking the Ruby+NwN-lib is the way to go).

If a better tree comes along, upgrade tree. If a better function comes along, upgrade function. Haks? Haks are archives of content. 30 haks with 75% duplicate content is ridiculous. *Managing* haks by hand is ridiculous. <right, only fanatics and obsessive-compulsive wizards do that>
Exactly. Wait. Which am I? <both, of course>
... Hey! I like that :-) <*face-wing*>

If PW admins can update content without re-designing the whole server, it will get updated.
If Players can improve their game-space without borking their favorite PW it will be improved.

That's the core challenge there.

Increasing awareness of CC would be great - we love new blood! (Just look how happy we were with Tarot's myriad blood placeables last year =) <i liked the "get out" wall smear ;->
(subtle wizard trick -> include links to neat content whenever you can get away with it ;-)

However, the consequences of increasing awareness of CC is to enrich the CC community... which still leaves the disconnect with the admins/players. It's a laudable project in itself and for its own reasons, but I think it's a side branch from your OP.

However, on that subject...

• Playable, fun (short & easy!) demo modules of CC <he's rather proud of the rogues challenge demo>
• Community demo events
• I also *strongly* advocate portfolio or "demo reel" mods for CC Makers
• and encourage the CC Makers to have a visible Avatar and personality that players can connect with. <the old man thinks his mpd is amusing>
  I hate acro... <multiple-personality disorder, boss>
  Oh. Well, it is. <heh>
• get the CC to visible places (Vault, Nexus, home page) and showcase it. Do you have any idea how many things get submitted to the Vault without screenshots? Puh-leese. D/L Greenshot and submit some screenies! And cross-link everywhere appropriate!

All, of course, just my opinion. <and his trusty familiar's>
Yeah, and hers.

<...in wizard robes looks absolutely ridiculous>

[Frith5]

I think there are many good ideas here, regarding the mechanics of actual USE of custom content, in the hopes this will bring more attention to it through the folks who give it a try or notice it. However, I think there's a slight break from use of the new stuff to awareness of not only the new stuff, but the old stuff (NWN itself).
Facebook.
Social media, with perhaps a central (or several) page where people can hit share and send out some cool video or screenshot to everyone on his/her friends list instantly. This exponential diffusion would likely prove to be an eye-opener for people long-gone from the game and people who've never considered the old gal.
-JFK

[T0r0]

Out of the few projects that are evolving right know to fill in the void that gamespy left I think the features that pope_leo's project addresses are key and which ever project comes out on top has to see the big picture
Simply for these reasons:

pope_leo "most players i've met couldn't care less about what happens outside their favorite PW."

Rolo "If PW admins can update content without re-designing the whole server, it will get updated.
If Players can improve their game-space without borking their favorite PW it will be improved."

ookeyoo " and many players arent even aware how cc even works"

It just has to work. period.

[OldTimeRadio]

@henesua - That stuff about community clout and me not understanding the impact of my words seems overly dramatic for this kind of topic, don't you think?  What gives?

@oOKyeOo - (Guiltily raises hand) Yep, I never played the official campaigns or...not very much anyway.  Was always about CC or multiplayer.  I agree with your observations.  So would you agree, then, that it's really something the Module makers/PW maintainers are in charge of?  I know it sounds like a silly question, but years and years ago, it was not too uncommon to have players pestering the host to add this or that content.  Kinda like calling up your cable company and asking them to add a new channel.  So the flipside is, do you think it's something you approach players with to inform them?

@pope_leo - Wow!  Very nice and every little bit counts, man.  Every little bit.

@NWN_baba yaga - "Nothing against to bring it up i´m just not sure how to feel about it;)"  Feel about what, exactly?

@Rolo - That's a pretty good list of bullet points for the overall situation.  One of my questions was basically "Who's currently downloading and using the CCC?"  Any idea on your end who is mostly downloading and using the CCC?

@Frith5 - I hear ya- especially about social media.  Did you listen to the most recent NWN Podcast?  It was recorded before the GameSpy servers went down, but I thought it was a reasonably frank discussion about the situation with NWN2...and one which I think also applies to NWN 1, at least to some extent.

T0r0 - I agree with those comments too, but achieving some of those things, especially in a post GameSpy environment could be difficult.

[kalbaern]

Even going back to the days of the old Bioware Forums, other than registering their CD Keys, most players and a significant number of PW Admins/Hosts/Builders were ignorant of it's usefulness. With fewer numbers today and many old faces leaving with the demise of the old forums, there's even fewer left here now.
Speaking from my own experiences, I think it's the "learning curve" that has always limited how many folks get involved in making or even using most custom content. When I first started my own PW, I scoured NWN Vault looking through all the myriad possibilities that existed and spent weeks just drooling and downloading stuff. Then ... I tried to make it work. Tileset "A" worked wonderfully, that is ... until I added Tileset "B". Haks were added, haks were reordered, haks were removed, haks were readded, etc... until I came up with a few that "almost" worked properly and I deemed it "good enough" and started building.
I'd downloaded tons of tutorials. Some were helpful, some just confused me more and some were now out of date. I can easilly see how most folks would simply give up on custom content and just use a premade compilation like the CEP or Project Q and make due. Often times, the Host/Admin for a particular PW has limited knowledge of scripting and building to begin with. There's was often a "vision" upon which their PW was founded, but having too little RL time or lacking the will to persevere and muddle through the learning process, they often just "settled" for what was easy and expediant. I.e., they chose to run a "vanilla" module or grabbed the CEP and started building.
Squabbling between sub groups within our community hasn't helped either. There's no good reason for many of the contentions between groups like the CEP, Project Q, the CTP and others (Well, actually there is and most of the blame can be layed upon the shoulders of "Barry_1066", the CEP's current Leader Dictator). My own views as they pertain to NWN are, "If it helps to promote and/or prolong the longevity of this great game, then be cordial and helpful with others ... even if you dislike them" (though, sometimes I break my own rules too ).
 
Along with the squabbling between groups, the issue of "ownership" arose. Folks that had been making CC contributions left in a huff when things were used without their permissions or in ways they did not desire. Myself, if "something" is posted publicly, I'll use it or not at my own pleasure. I ALWAYS give credit when I use others works. If an "author" places restrictions on something, I'll do my best to abide by them, but ... many restrictions such as "do not include this in a compilation" I might ignore. Why? Because, often the "offering" is no longer even being supported or the "author" has failed to respond to my direct querries. In those cases, I've no qualms doing as I see fit ... and giving them due credit.

As far as a way of "fixing" things and promoting and encouraging both existing and  New Custom Content, I can tell folks here that if not for all the nice screenshots, questions asked and answered, the monthly CC Challenges and other things I've spotted while lurking on these boards, I'd not be finishing my own custom haks for my PW at present. "Seeing" all this has been the impetous for learning and asking questions. Pillars of the community here like "Rolo", "OTR", "Amethyst Dragon" and countless others have answered my PMs or posts, sent links when needed and sometimes just let me vent frustrations. All in all, the community as a whole has given me the boost needed to get things sorted and not just merge "other's" stuff, but include some of my own personal additions to the haks I'm finishing now. In all honesty, it's been all the sweet new stuff found in the "CCC" submissions that has been the biggest kick in my rear. I had to "have it", so I've learned the "hows" of adding it along with some meager skills in editting/tweaking others works and adding my own now.

There's alot of good custom content that is found here, on NWN Vault and other places. Sadly, it's often a pain-in-the-rear to get it all working for most of us. Initially, alot of custom content I was considering came out pre-1.69. After the 1.69 update, which was just after I'd started working on my own PW, many older haks were broken. Mostly issues with textures or doors. Not having the "know how", myself and many others doing building found our choices suddenly very slim again. Sometimes I'd find a hak that would expand or change a Bioware tileset, and it, then find out it changed others as well. Sometimes I'd find "A", add it, then find "B" and add it, then find it broke "A" ... grrrrrr! It's taken me awhile to figure out the ins and outs of many things. Now when "A" conflicts with "B", I just rename models, edit 2DAs and any .set/.itp/etc... files I need to make it all work smoothly. Skills I lacked until very recently. Adding and merging custom content, especially with the works of "tons" of authors, many of whom had various skill levels themselves and differing naming conventions or 2DA lines used is no easy feat and most won't spend much effort doing it themselves.

In a perfect world, most if not all custom content would not conflict with default options or others of their kind. You could pick and choose from a list, adding what you desired and leaving out what you did not. There'd still be some small work involved in merging, but merging haks and various 2da lines is still alot easier than having to reorder, rename and otherwise "fix" most of the current offerings to get them all working harmoneously together. Had I the time, I'd be more than willing to start collecting individual offerings and making merge ready haks that that both CEP and Project Q folk could make easier use of. I don't have such freedom at the moment however. Perhaps this spring I shall. I know if "we" made using CC easier in general, more would partake of it.

[Rolo Kipp]

<pulling off his deerhunter hat...>

OldTimeRadio wrote...
@Rolo - That's a pretty good list of bullet points for the overall situation.  One of my questions was basically "Who's currently downloading and using the CCC?"  Any idea on your end who is mostly downloading and using the CCC?

Honestly, all I can see is the download counts and who posts. 

There *are* quite a number of people who post who I do not see on these forums, but I can't tell you more than you can see yourself. :-/

<...and slipping some brit's magnifying glass into his pocket>

[henesua]

OldTimeRadio wrote...

@henesua - That stuff about community clout and me not understanding the impact of my words seems overly dramatic for this kind of topic, don't you think?  What gives?

Tis the season? I dunno. But more soberly, I'm not sure what you mean.

What I meant was people listen to you in the community, and so I surmise that a word here and there from you is a sound endorsement and could draw in new blood. After all if I can draw people in here to participate I'm confident that your mentioning the CC goes a long way as well.

I appologize if what I said offended you. I didn't mean it that way at all. It simply was an argument in support of word of mouth.

[T0r0]

Kalbaern " Pillars of the community here like "Rolo", "OTR", "Amethyst Dragon" and countless others have answered my PMs or posts, sent links when needed and sometimes just let me vent frustrations. "

Well said ! This has been my experience too and wanted to sincerely say "Thank you"

[Zwerkules]

I'd also like to use this thread to thank people.
There's been a lot of feedback from other people who create CC themselves. I'll just name Rolo and Baba Yaga here, but there have been many more.

My experience with PW builders has not been quite so good though.

There seem to be four kinds of PW builders.

Type A: The ones who say 'We keep our PW hak-free' and then use CEP which interestingly doesn't count as a hak.

Type B: People who use lame excuses for not using new content. Excuses like pathfinding doesn't work well.
I just played the OC as a ranger and you know what? My henchman got constantly stuck between walls and doors and I could kill hordes of monsters in the cavern tileset without getting a single scratch because they couldn't cross the water by the means of a 'bridge' that was only a few metres away from them. They always tried to cross the water in a straight line.
So saying that pathfinding doesn't work well is a lame excuse, because it doesn't work well in ANY tilesets.

Type C: Those who still live in the past decade and think CEP is the only custom content there is and the TNO tileset is new.

Type D: Those who use new content. You can split this group into two. One that uses new content and doesn't give any feedback and one that does give feedback.



So there are three types of PW builders who wouldn't use new content against only one type of them who would.

I want to thank those few of them in the last group and especially Henesua. Not only does he use new content, he also gives very useful feedback like thoughts on what could be improved and bug reports.


Thank you, Henesua! Without people like you I would have stopped working on custom content a long time ago because the number of PW builders who ignore new content or just want to use the CEP sadly is far too high for my liking.

Modifié par Zwerkules, 20 décembre 2012 - 07:36 .

[NWN_baba yaga]

@OTR:
what i mean is i take the time to create custom content and then i share it with all of you here and trough the vault. So thats my take on it, nothing more. When i count all hours or days together to get my stuff complete i think i can say, ok thats what i have to offer but i dont knock on every door to advertise my stuff. Thats not why i do content, i dont sell it. When someone is realy interested he can find my projects in less an hour, compared to my work hours it´s nothing... thats what i meant as i said "dont know what to feel about".

p.s. the feedback for my stuff has always been great and i appreciate it, realy i do. But as zwerkules said and i agree with you, the whole cc community is my backbone for support.

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 17 décembre 2012 - 06:08 .

[The Amethyst Dragon]

Hehe...I'm a pillar? Thanks.

As far as PW builders using new custom content...I think I fit into a slightly different category...I use new stuff, plus CEP (and soon to be plus Project Q), and I try to provide comments/feedback for everything I might have an interest in...I also do a lot of custom content, so my players are used to getting new stuff all the time (and they aren't shy about suggesting new stuff).

But yeah, there's definitely a learning curve when it comes to adding/merging custom content from multiple sources (even from a single source).  If we could get more players to ask their PW builders for it though, we might see more taking the time to at least learn to merge 2da files.

Modifié par The Amethyst Dragon, 17 décembre 2012 - 08:40 .

[henesua]

Yes TAD. Like this.

[OldTimeRadio]

Hey, Amethyst Dragon, you might be just the person to ask about this:  I vaguely remember that there used to be a hak in CEP which was attached to the module but was otherwise empty.  From what I understand, the concept was that this way PW Maintainers/Module makers could add server-specific content to that hak.  If players had the server's version of the hak, they could see the new content.  If not...well, I dunno but for placeables and simple stuff like that I believe the idea was they just wouldn't see it.

Do you know what I'm talking about?  How can I find more about how that works? 

My thinking is if something like that exists, a PW could kind of hold its own intra-server mini-CCC challenges.  I was playing on a server and was getting shown around and the person doing the showing pointed out this billboard poster kind of thing and asked if I could make more.  I told her they'd have more fun if I gave them a blank and then they could each pick images they liked for the billboards.  But I came up short on how they could do it without the whole "new hak" thing...until this recollection bubbled up, anyway.

[The Amethyst Dragon]

cep2_custom.hak

It's an empty hak in the regular download. Builders can use it to drop server-side things like blueprints, scripts, and certain module-only 2da files (ones never called by the player client).

It's a way to slow advancement on the 16k resource limit. Since it's only filled with stuff server-side, any player with CEP installed can still play on any server. It's not really meant as a way for new art assets to be added for players/builders.

For basic content additions, a server-specific top hak is easy enough to add...it would just go above any CEP haks in the list, with any 2da files based on the CEP ones (so CEP stuff stays useable).

Edited to add: If my PW's players are any indication, if they get new stuff, they won't mind periodicly downloading new content.  Haks are so easy to install: decompress and put into the NWN/hak folder (and maybe NWN/tlk), and they're good to go.

Modifié par The Amethyst Dragon, 17 décembre 2012 - 11:27 .

[OldTimeRadio]

Ah, thank you.  That makes sense.  I was hoping there was some kind of trick involved.