294 réponses à ce sujet

[lil yonce]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

That is quite possible.

Yeah, its just not taught. The tradition has been lost and modern mages wouldn't know much about such magic.

For how long? Centuries at least? That's unlikely.

If they do know how to perform this kind of magic, they haven't done it in centuries, and not performing it in centuries could lead to a lack of knowledge in future generations. They did this kind of magic in concert and now most Magisters in Tevinter don't collaborate. Coincidentally, the ultra competitive culture of the Magisters has been around for centuries now.

Also, there are Mages who are neither in the Circles nor in Tevinter. Such as the Witches of the Wilds, the Dalish Keepers, and Circle escapees (such as Malcolm Hawke) and their Mage offsprings. None of them, not even Flemeth, have demonstrated Magic comparable to the old Magisters.

I don't Flemeth has a reason to show her hand yet, and most circle escapees just likely aren't familiar with the powerful ancient magic. I don't receice the impression most apostates want to unlock all the secrects of ancient Tevinter and Arlathan. Most just want to live their lives. And the mages that do hand down traditional magic are few in number, and well, they have to rely on tradition only. They may not have access to a traditional magic in its original form.

That's Chantry propaganda and should be taken with a grain of salt.

I don't think that's propaganda. I think Corypheus confirms it in Legacy. The most powerful Magisters were servants of Dumat.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 18 décembre 2012 - 03:56 .

[Plaintiff]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

But according to the lore, those feats occurred at an even earlier time, when virtually everyone was a mage, so it's not an issue of magic being "diluted".

What lore?

Um... all of it? The entire history of Thedas is basically a big whine about how terrible the world was when magic was a lot more common.

It is believed by the Dalish that, in the days of Arlathan, all elves possessed magic. 

Blood Magic was supposedly the first kind of magic to exist, and historians debate whether the first human mage, Archon Thalsian learned it from Dumat, as he claimed, or if the elves taught him. He supposedly taught others how to use and amassed a large enough army to conquer the entire continent of Thedas and rule it for a very long time. The obvious implication being that, at that period of time, magic was a lot easier to learn, and more people were capable of using it. 

The great magical feats mentioned in lore (The sinking of Arlathan, the invasion of the Golden City, the building of Kirkwall, etc) are attributed not to the actions of any single mage, but to a great number of maages working in concert.

[Herr Uhl]

Plaintiff wrote...

Um... all of it? The entire history of Thedas is basically a big whine about how terrible the world was when magic was a lot more common.

Commonly used. Not mages being more common.

It is believed by the Dalish that, in the days of Arlathan, all elves possessed magic.

Well, I remember this.

Blood Magic was supposedly the first kind of magic to exist, and historians debate whether the first human mage, Archon Thalsian learned it from Dumat, as he claimed, or if the elves taught him. He supposedly taught others how to use and amassed a large enough army to conquer the entire continent of Thedas and rule it for a very long time. The obvious implication being that, at that period of time, magic was a lot easier to learn, and more people were capable of using it.

There was no large organized opposition (after the elves). And why would magic be easier to learn? He could just as easily have had a regular army. Andraste was able to conquer most of Thedas with the help of some barbarians and malcontents.

The great magical feats mentioned in lore (The sinking of Arlathan, the invasion of the Golden City, the building of Kirkwall, etc) are attributed not to the actions of any single mage, but to a great number of maages working in concert.

There are thousands of mages now too. Having several mages existing at the same time does not imply that there are any more.

The invasion of the golden city was for example put down to 7 mages. There are more than 7 right now.

Edit: We have the Baroness that was able to transport the entire population of Blackmarsh to the fade for example. She was hardly a mystical mage of the past.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 18 décembre 2012 - 03:56 .

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's possible, but I doubt tremendously that the Dragon Age is going to be about the reduction of knowledge and power; I believe more of both will be accumulated.

It is, through technology.  The Dwarves are looking into the Qunari advances, even as they work on their own.  Knowledge and power are being accumulated.

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's possible, but I doubt tremendously that the Dragon Age is going to be about the reduction of knowledge and power; I believe more of both will be accumulated.

It is, through technology.  The Dwarves are looking into the Qunari advances, even as they work on their own.  Knowledge and power are being accumulated.

That's incomplete. Developing technology without developing magic is akin to ignoring several vital branches of physics.

[iOnlySignIn]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Yeah, its just not taught. The tradition has been lost and modern mages wouldn't know much about such magic.

If they do know how to perform this kind of magic, they haven't done it in centuries, and not performing it in centuries could lead to a lack of knowledge in future generations. 

most circle escapees just likely aren't familiar with the powerful ancient magic.

And the mages that do hand down traditional magic are few in number, and well, they have to rely on tradition only. They may not have access to a traditional magic in its original form.

In other words, Magic has gotten weaker in Thedas. 

Your thesis on the absolute lack of cooperation between modern Magisters is also contrary to Human nature. Cooperation is what distinguishes Human behavior from their animal counterparts. It has definitive evolutionary benefits. Throughout the centuries the Magisters must have seen plenty of opportunities to cooperate - the only sensible conclusion is that they did cooperate, but they were not as strong as before (cooperation or not).

I don't think that's propaganda. I think Corypheus confirms it in Legacy. The most powerful Magisters were servants of Dumat.

Haha! Are you going to tell me next that the Chantry are the servants of Andraste?

Sorry if I sound insolent - but until I see a living or fossilized Old God (or fossilized Old God footprints - that will do too), they don't exist except in imaginations.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 18 décembre 2012 - 04:20 .

[iOnlySignIn]

Herr Uhl wrote...

It is believed by the Dalish that, in the days of Arlathan, all elves possessed magic.

Well, I remember this.

Typical braindead Elven racial superiority propaganda.

We were all Magical. We were all Immortal. You are vermins who carry plagues. We own this world and you should all die. Yeah right.

The great magical feats mentioned in lore (The sinking of Arlathan, the invasion of the Golden City, the building of Kirkwall, etc) are attributed not to the actions of any single mage, but to a great number of maages working in concert.

There are thousands of mages now too. Having several mages existing at the same time does not imply that there are any more.

The invasion of the golden city was for example put down to 7 mages. There are more than 7 right now.

Exactly. It baffles me how "cooperation" or "working in concert" is now suddenly the most powerful form of Magic to some people.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 18 décembre 2012 - 04:21 .

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

That's incomplete. Developing technology without developing magic is akin to ignoring several vital branches of physics.

You mean how magic was developed for centuries, if not thousands of years, resulting in what appears to be a stagnation of technology?  The Qunari are already at cannon (late Medieval, if I recall) technology, while Thedas seems to be stuck in an Ancient/Early Medieval tech level. 

I mean, what good is a mode of transportation when you can just walk through a mirror, right?

[Herr Uhl]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

That's incomplete. Developing technology without developing magic is akin to ignoring several vital branches of physics.

You mean how magic was developed for centuries, if not thousands of years, resulting in what appears to be a stagnation of technology?  The Qunari are already at cannon (late Medieval, if I recall) technology, while Thedas seems to be stuck in an Ancient/Early Medieval tech level. 

I mean, what good is a mode of transportation when you can just walk through a mirror, right?

Are we to blame magic for that the Ottomans had cannons way before Europe too? There are more facets to this than magic.

[BlueMagitek]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Are we to blame magic for that the Ottomans had cannons way before Europe too? There are more facets to this than magic.

Well, when the major empire was primarily magic based, did not really seem to invest much in technology, and then fell to pieces to barbarians and slave rebellions, well, I don't see much incentive for tech there.  And it isn't like information wasn't lost, it was, but most of it seems to be magic based if we look at DA 2 and the discovery of various ancient grimoires under Kirkwall. 

[Herr Uhl]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Are we to blame magic for that the Ottomans had cannons way before Europe too? There are more facets to this than magic.

Well, when the major empire was primarily magic based, did not really seem to invest much in technology, and then fell to pieces to barbarians and slave rebellions, well, I don't see much incentive for tech there.  And it isn't like information wasn't lost, it was, but most of it seems to be magic based if we look at DA 2 and the discovery of various ancient grimoires under Kirkwall. 

Magic based technology is still technology. Imagine what a marvel something like sending stones would be to anyone 150 years ago.

Magic has also been used in dwarven technology, most notably in the golems. Also a thing that would make anyone marvel, even today.

These two solitary things make cannons seem pedestrian in comparison.

Edit: They (Qunari) seem to have a great grasp about biology, optics and navigation that most other nations lacked. That is where I find them most interesting.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 18 décembre 2012 - 04:44 .

[lil yonce]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

In other words, Magic has gotten weaker in Thedas.

Not gotten weaker as in powerful magic can't be acheived any longer because new mages are sucking up some magical aura and diluting magical talent-- but as in no one uses this kind of magic right now, the tradition of such magics has been destroyed.

Your thesis on the absolute lack of cooperation between modern Magisters is also contrary to Human nature. Cooperation is what distinguishes Human behavior from their animal counterparts. It has definitive evolutionary benefits. Throughout the centuries the Magisters must have seen plenty of opportunities to cooperate - the only sensible conclusion is that they did cooperate, but they were not as strong as before (cooperation or not).

Tell that to the Magisters who kill each other with blood magic in the streets of Minrathous as if its long been common place. If they did cooperate in the recent past to some significant end, they've strangely got nothing to show for their efforts.

Haha! Are you going to tell me next that the Chantry are the servants of Andraste?

No, but why is it so hard to believe their magic came from the Old Gods? Corypheus asks Dumat to grant him power against Hawke & co. and seems shocked he wasn't answered.

Sorry if I sound insolent - but until I see a living or fossilized Old God (or fossilized Old God footprints - that will do too), they don't exist except in imaginations.

You saw an Old God in the fifth blight. What was left after corruption anyways.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 18 décembre 2012 - 05:16 .

[BlueMagitek]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Magic based technology is still technology. Imagine what a marvel something like sending stones would be to anyone 150 years ago.

Magic has also been used in dwarven technology, most notably in the golems. Also a thing that would make anyone marvel, even today.

These two solitary things make cannons seem pedestrian in comparison.

Edit: They (Qunari) seem to have a great grasp about biology, optics and navigation that most other nations lacked. That is where I find them most interesting.

Well, I would put it firmly in magical artifacts, especially if they're only usable by mages, as opposed to, say, an electrical light source, which anyone can switch on or off provided the electricity is there.

Yes, Lyrium has had its place in dwarvern crafting, and they do have a nice mix of magitech if they kept the Anvil, but smokeless coal, a water clock, etc don't require lyrium.

The ability for any man or woman to basically destroy a castle (or golem) is not pedestrian. :/

I would imagine that Dwarves and Qunari would have the strongest grasp of what we consider medicine, being unable to rely on healing magic.

[Plaintiff]

iOnlySignIn wrote...
Exactly. It baffles me how "cooperation" or "working in concert" is now suddenly the most powerful form of Magic to some people.

Because I clearly stated that co-operation was the only factor in the performance of those magical feats. Herpderpderp.

[Herr Uhl]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, I would put it firmly in magical artifacts, especially if they're only usable by mages, as opposed to, say, an electrical light source, which anyone can switch on or off provided the electricity is there.

This does not make it any more or less of technology though.

Yes, Lyrium has had its place in dwarvern crafting, and they do have a nice mix of magitech if they kept the Anvil, but smokeless coal, a water clock, etc don't require lyrium.

I kind of doubt that magic (from our side of the natural world) isn't involved in smokeless coal. And you're using a water clock as evidence of great technology?

The ability for any man or woman to basically destroy a castle (or golem) is not pedestrian. :/

If we put it in a historical perspective, it kind of is. Cannons are rather basic.

I would imagine that Dwarves and Qunari would have the strongest grasp of what we consider medicine, being unable to rely on healing magic.

There is little to suggest they do. At least when it comes to dwarves. Qunari have all kinds of psuedo-magical substances (Qamek for example) though, so they might have something.

To ignore magic in technology in a setting where magic exists just seems stupid to me.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 18 décembre 2012 - 05:13 .

[Herr Uhl]

Plaintiff wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...
Exactly. It baffles me how "cooperation" or "working in concert" is now suddenly the most powerful form of Magic to some people.

Because I clearly stated that co-operation was the only factor in the performance of those magical feats. Herpderpderp.

I would put most of it down to greater resource allotment. There was a lot more Lyrium back in the day (with the Dwarven empire consisting of more than one and a half Kingdoms) and less qualms about blood magic.

[BlueMagitek]

Herr Uhl wrote...

This does not make it any more or less of technology though.

I kind of doubt that magic (from our side of the natural world) isn't involved in smokeless coal. And you're using a water clock as evidence of great technology?

If we put it in a historical perspective, it kind of is. Cannons are rather basic.

There is little to suggest they do. At least when it comes to dwarves. Qunari have all kinds of psuedo-magical substances (Qamek for example) though, so they might have something.

To ignore magic in technology in a setting where magic exists just seems stupid to me.

Well, as you are picky, I will refer to it as nonmagical tech. 

No, I'm using it as an advancement of technology.  Supposedly hundreds of years ago, or whenever Varric's relative took care of it.  We don't have evidence of it being magic related.  There isn't really any mention of lyrium involved.

The technology that more or less made the castle obsolete is basic?  Well, maybe, but that doesn't really count against it.

It's a reasonable assumption to make, that given limited access to one resource/field, others will be attempted.

I disagree. ~_^

[Plaintiff]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

That's incomplete. Developing technology without developing magic is akin to ignoring several vital branches of physics.

You mean how magic was developed for centuries, if not thousands of years, resulting in what appears to be a stagnation of technology?  The Qunari are already at cannon (late Medieval, if I recall) technology, while Thedas seems to be stuck in an Ancient/Early Medieval tech level. 

I mean, what good is a mode of transportation when you can just walk through a mirror, right?

Technology is the application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes. The study of magic in Thedas is a scientific one, as it is in every world where magic exists. It can't be anything else, there is no such category. Every time a mage casts a spell, they are using technology. When someone uses an enchanted object, they are using technology. Separating magic from technology in the world of Thedas is exactly as inane and nonsensical as separating electricity from the technology of our own world.

A magic mirror that transports you to other realms is a mode of transportation technology. It is not any less legitimate than a car or a plane or any vehicle you might think of.

Furthermore, there is no conceivable way that magic could be blamed for the technological stagnation of Thedas, the argument is totally absurd. The peasantry and nobility across most of Thedas shun magic to the point of locking its practitioners in isolated towers. Their access to it is extremely limited, to the point that its existence is utterly irrelevent to their day-to-day lives. For all practical purposes, it may as well not exist. Your magic mirror example holds no water at all, because only a few select individuals in the world of Thedas are even aware that such artifacts ever existed, and they certainly do not have the means to make their own. There is absolutely nothing stopping the mundanes of Thedas from developing alternative technologies to magic except their own disinclination to do so, for reasons that are not clear.

Thedas is not our world, magic is a key component of its fictional universe and thus the study of it is exactly as crucial to their understanding of their own universe as things like gravity and evolution are to the understanding of our own. Ignoring magic will not facilitate their scientific development, it will hamper it to a ridiculous degree.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Scientific study of anatomy is largely shunned due to fear of blood magic, which hampers that branch of scientific study even more. Maybe that's part of why Thedas doesn't really do much in the way of science? Fear of the magical applications?

[Absafraginlootly]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Scientific study of anatomy is largely shunned due to fear of blood magic, which hampers that branch of scientific study even more. Maybe that's part of why Thedas doesn't really do much in the way of science? Fear of the magical applications?

Weren't autopsies shunned in our own history thus hampering the study of anatomy? Not saying that confusing science with magic mightent discourage some forms of scientific study, but it's not going to be the only factor.

[Xilizhra]

Well, when the major empire was primarily magic based, did not really seem to invest much in technology, and then fell to pieces to barbarians and slave rebellions, well, I don't see much incentive for tech there. And it isn't like information wasn't lost, it was, but most of it seems to be magic based if we look at DA 2 and the discovery of various ancient grimoires under Kirkwall.

It peaked a thousand years ago and seemed to have Romanesque technology; judging by the rather skillfully built architecture they left behind (in fact, every major building we see in both games seems to have been Tevinter-made), they may actually have been pushing ahead of Rome in technological terms. Nothing about old Tevinter seems to suggest technological stagnation. The current Ages have been stagnant, but I doubt that's directly related to magical proliferation, especially since less technology seems to have been developed with more confined magic. As for the others... dwarven "smokeless coal" may well be lyrium-based in some manner, so we can't say that it's definitely nonmagical. And qunari gunpowder technology is at its most primitive level: they have cannons, but not guns. Moreover, they've had cannons for 300 years, and haven't developed guns in all that time either. The qunari don't seem significantly less stagnant than the rest of Thedas, they just started out at a higher level (which could be far more due to the culture they fled from than the one that they are).

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
Technology is the application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes. The study of magic in Thedas is a scientific one, as it is in every world where magic exists. It can't be anything else, there is no such category. Every time a mage casts a spell, they are using technology. When someone uses an enchanted object, they are using technology. Separating magic from technology in the world of Thedas is exactly as inane and nonsensical as separating electricity from the technology of our own world.

A magic mirror that transports you to other realms is a mode of transportation technology. It is not any less legitimate than a car or a plane or any vehicle you might think of.

I reject your assumptions and definitions.

Magic exist in Thedas, therefore it is the same thing as steam power and similar?
No.

[Lotion Soronarr]

BlueMagitek wrote...

It was the decision of the fraternities to be a Senate rather than a House, so "doesn't really count" isn't a fair argument.  A hellhole?  Are you kidding?  In DA:O only the Human/Dwarf Noble had a better background, and the Mage background was safer still.  The Alienage is a hellhole.  Dust Town is a hellhole.  The Circle?  Please.  Being allowed outside for indefinite periods of time without supervision of a Templar isn't one of the things that you want?  Good gracious, you would hand the Mages the world and claim it wasn't enough.

But don't you understand Magitek?
It is NEVER enough. Mages are the master race and everyone must fall before them.

[Wulfram]

Tevinter Plate Armour, such as the Juggernaut armour in DA:O, would appear to be as, or more, advanced than early cannon. At least if we're comparing it to earth technologies.

[Herr Uhl]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I reject your assumptions and definitions.

Magic exist in Thedas, therefore it is the same thing as steam power and similar?
No.

So you decide that technology shouldn't mean technology now?

Swell.