294 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

Absafraginlootly wrote...
Weren't autopsies shunned in our own
history thus hampering the study of anatomy? Not saying that confusing
science with magic mightent discourage some forms of scientific study,
but it's not going to be the only factor.

Eh, it depended on the culture.  If I remember

correctly, which may not be, given my failing memory, Roman doctors
gained experience by following around Legions and fiddling with the
corpses of the enemy dead.

Wulfram wrote...

Tevinter
Plate Armour, such as the Juggernaut armour in DA:O, would appear to be
as, or more, advanced than early cannon. At least if we're comparing
it to earth technologies.

Do you mean in make or due to its bonuses?  It was infused with blood magic and lyrium, if I recall correctly.

Xilizhra wrote...

It peaked a thousand years ago and seemed to have Romanesque technology; judging by the rather skillfully built architecture they left behind (in fact, every major building we see in both games seems to have been Tevinter-made), they may actually have been pushing ahead of Rome in technological terms. Nothing about old Tevinter seems to suggest technological stagnation. The current Ages have been stagnant, but I doubt that's directly related to magical proliferation, especially since less technology seems to have been developed with more confined magic. As for the others... dwarven "smokeless coal" may well be lyrium-based in some manner, so we can't say that it's definitely nonmagical. And qunari gunpowder technology is at its most primitive level: they have cannons, but not guns. Moreover, they've had cannons for 300 years, and haven't developed guns in all that time either. The qunari don't seem significantly less stagnant than the rest of Thedas, they just started out at a higher level (which could be far more due to the culture they fled from than the one that they are).

Yes, I said that Thedas appeared to be in the early Medieval period.  And do remember that old Tevinter mages were masters of magic, being able to scape the landscape to their will.  Technology only tends to advance if there is an incentive for it.  You want to move a large amount of rock from a mountain?  Well, you could either send a bunch of peasants at it, spend an untold amount of time trying different things to get accomplish it (technology), or just have a mage come by and blow it up; heck, if the Circle won't do it, reach out for an apostate, they're probably cheaper anyway.  Which one of these options do you think a noble would take?    We don't know what the Qunari were doing a thousand years ago or what they were like a thousand years ago.  We don't know that they haven't developed guns, after all, we only deal with Tal Valoshi, Qunari lacking most of their weaponry and Sten.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Technology is the application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes. The study of magic in Thedas is a scientific one, as it is in every world where magic exists. It can't be anything else, there is no such category. Every time a mage casts a spell, they are using technology. When someone uses an enchanted object, they are using technology. Separating magic from technology in the world of Thedas is exactly as inane and nonsensical as separating electricity from the technology of our own world.

A magic mirror that transports you to other realms is a mode of transportation technology. It is not any less legitimate than a car or a plane or any vehicle you might think of.

I reject your assumptions and definitions.

Magic exist in Thedas, therefore it is the same thing as steam power and similar?
No.

There are settings where the magic essentially acts as technology. Sure, the airplane is powered by fire elementals, and the telephones work through some weird arcane magic, but it makes no difference to the man on the street, whether or not he is magical. I believe that's true to some extent of the magic in Thedas; the dwarves apparently have lyrium equivalents of modern bathtubs, or at least the nobility does. And of course Branka and Caridin didn't need to be mages to do what they do. The Eluvian? I dunno. It's a device created by observing how the world works, and how certain things react to human/elven actions. I think that's as good a definition of technology as we're getting.

[Medhia Nox]

@Riverdaleswhiteflash: Cariden actually states that a kind of blood magic was involved in the making of golems.

The problem with "magic as technology" is that it's at its absolute weakest when it is not governed by any discernable "Laws". Even real world occultists state there are "Laws" to magic.

We're told that there's books about magical theory, but we're never exposed to any real "Laws" of magic.

Creating a technology around that is as inconsistent as DA magic itself.

-----

And relying on a fireball and not developing the canon is foolishness.

I find the existence of mages even MORE of an impetus to empower the common man.

Clearly fantasy designers disagree.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

There are a few. Resurrection is impossible, teleportation is impossible, and it is essentially impossible to get into the Fade without leaving your physical body at the door. Of course, none of these laws are hard and fast, but the idea is that they are only rarely broken.

Also, I believe Caridin was referring to the process as blood magic because it worked as a description. I don't think he needed a mage to do it, he just needed a sacrifice.

[iOnlySignIn]

Youth4Ever wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

In other words, Magic has gotten weaker in Thedas.

Not gotten weaker as in powerful magic can't be acheived any longer because new mages are sucking up some magical aura and diluting magical talent-- but as in no one uses this kind of magic right now, the tradition of such magics has been destroyed.

I'll give you that.

Your thesis on the absolute lack of cooperation between modern Magisters is also contrary to Human nature. Cooperation is what distinguishes Human behavior from their animal counterparts. It has definitive evolutionary benefits. Throughout the centuries the Magisters must have seen plenty of opportunities to cooperate - the only sensible conclusion is that they did cooperate, but they were not as strong as before (cooperation or not).

Tell that to the Magisters who kill each other with blood magic in the streets of Minrathous as if its long been common place. If they did cooperate in the recent past to some significant end, they've strangely got nothing to show for their efforts.

Every society has violent crimes. Every society cooperates. That's human nature.

Haha! Are you going to tell me next that the Chantry are the servants of Andraste?

No, but why is it so hard to believe their magic came from the Old Gods? Corypheus asks Dumat to grant him power against Hawke & co. and seems shocked he wasn't answered.

He's a confused old fossil who had been asleep for thousands of years. He can't even tell what Age he's in. He's like an ancient Egyptian mummy who wakes up and prays to Amun. Are you going to take his religious ramblings literally?

Sorry if I sound insolent - but until I see a living or fossilized Old God (or fossilized Old God footprints - that will do too), they don't exist except in imaginations.

You saw an Old God in the fifth blight. What was left after corruption anyways.

(1) No Mage/Magister has been able to communicate with an Archedemon (current or historical one) to draw on its power (like they are supposed to be able to with Old Gods), so it's pointless.

(2) Archedmons = Corrupted Old Gods is part of the Chantry propaganda against Magisters and Magic in general. 

[iOnlySignIn]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Absafraginlootly wrote...
Weren't autopsies shunned in our own history thus hampering the study of anatomy? 

Eh, it depended on the culture.  If I remember correctly, which may not be, given my failing memory, Roman doctors  gained experience by following around Legions and fiddling with the corpses of the enemy dead.

Stoicism is a great philosophy.

The Qunari must have gained their medical knowledge in similar ways, given how they regard their dead as mere husks which should be left to rot.

[Xilizhra]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Absafraginlootly wrote...
Weren't autopsies shunned in our own history thus hampering the study of anatomy? 

Eh, it depended on the culture.  If I remember correctly, which may not be, given my failing memory, Roman doctors  gained experience by following around Legions and fiddling with the corpses of the enemy dead.

Stoicism is a great philosophy.

The Qunari must have gained their medical knowledge in similar ways, given how they regard their dead as mere husks which should be left to rot.

When have the qunari ever demonstrated such medical knowledge?

[iOnlySignIn]

Xilizhra wrote...

When have the qunari ever demonstrated such medical knowledge?

All the time. Just look at them.

[HTTP 404]

I wish I could support this goal

> Unite the populous to overthrow the Chantry, exile the mages, oppose tevinter, oppose the Qun

Modifié par HTTP 404, 19 décembre 2012 - 04:00 .

[iOnlySignIn]

HTTP 404 wrote...

I wish I could support this goal

> Unite the populous to overthrow the Chantry, exile the mages, oppose tevinter, oppose the Qun

Me too.

[Xilizhra]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

When have the qunari ever demonstrated such medical knowledge?

All the time. Just look at them.

Gorillas are much stronger and bulkier than humans; what's the state of their medical care systems? Also, consider Tallis, who as an elf still has a build you'd consider sickly.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Technology is the application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes. The study of magic in Thedas is a scientific one, as it is in every world where magic exists. It can't be anything else, there is no such category. Every time a mage casts a spell, they are using technology. When someone uses an enchanted object, they are using technology. Separating magic from technology in the world of Thedas is exactly as inane and nonsensical as separating electricity from the technology of our own world.

A magic mirror that transports you to other realms is a mode of transportation technology. It is not any less legitimate than a car or a plane or any vehicle you might think of.

I reject your assumptions and definitions.

Magic exist in Thedas, therefore it is the same thing as steam power and similar?
No.

Reject them all you like. Logic, objective reality, and the English dictionary are on my side.

I did not say that magic and steam power are "the same", I said that they are both technology. Solar power and wind power are not the same, but they are still both technology. Telephones and email are not the same, but they are both technology.

Technology is a term that covers everything from the invention of the wheel to the Large Hadron Collider and beyond. And in worlds where magic exists, it covers that too.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 19 décembre 2012 - 04:47 .

[iOnlySignIn]

Xilizhra wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

When have the qunari ever demonstrated such medical knowledge?

All the time. Just look at them.

Gorillas are much stronger and bulkier than humans; what's the state of their medical care systems? Also, consider Tallis, who as an elf still has a build you'd consider sickly.

Disregarding how hilariously racist that sounds, I'm not referring to their musculature.

I'm referring to how they don't ever get sick (or at least it seems so to the rest of Thedas) and are able to remain effective under the harshest conditions. That is actually a great source of their military superiority, just like how Islamic medicine was a great source of Muslim military superiority over the Europeans until the Renaissance.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 19 décembre 2012 - 04:25 .

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Riverdaleswhiteflash: Cariden actually states that a kind of blood magic was involved in the making of golems.

The problem with "magic as technology" is that it's at its absolute weakest when it is not governed by any discernable "Laws". Even real world occultists state there are "Laws" to magic.

We're told that there's books about magical theory, but we're never exposed to any real "Laws" of magic.

Creating a technology around that is as inconsistent as DA magic itself.

-----

And relying on a fireball and not developing the canon is foolishness.

I find the existence of mages even MORE of an impetus to empower the common man.

Clearly fantasy designers disagree.

The reason there are no discernable laws is because magic is still a mystery even to the more educated people of Thedas, just as things like rain and gravity were once a mystery to us.

The people of Thedas may not understand the 'laws' of magic, and they haven't been revealed to us yet, but they exist and always have existed, just like the laws of phyics existed in our own universe, even before we had a concept of physics at all.

[Plaintiff]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

When have the qunari ever demonstrated such medical knowledge?

All the time. Just look at them.

Gorillas are much stronger and bulkier than humans; what's the state of their medical care systems? Also, consider Tallis, who as an elf still has a build you'd consider sickly.

Disregarding how hilariously racist that sounds, I'm not referring to their musculature.

I'm referring to how they don't ever get sick (or at least it seems so to the rest of Thedas) and are able to remain effective under the harshest conditions. That is actually a great source of their military superiority, just like how Islamic medicine was a great source of Muslim military superiority over the Europeans until the Renaissance.

Where has it ever been stateed that Qunari do not experince sickness? Or that their medecine is superior?

They have gunpowder and poisonous gas, that does not mean that every facet of their society is a gleaming technological Utopia.

[Plaintiff]

BlueMagitek wrote...
 We don't know that they haven't developed guns, after all, we only deal with Tal Valoshi, Qunari lacking most of their weaponry and Sten.  

Gaider has stated that it's extremely unlikely that we'll be seeing handguns anytime soon. I think it's safe to say they haven't been invented.

We also know that the technology the Qunari possess now (at least, all that we've seen) is the same technology they possessed three-hundred years ago, when they first rocked up on Par Vollen. Nobody is saying that the Qunari haven't experienced technological advances since that time, but you seem to be assuming they have when there's no evidence to support the notion at all.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Sorry if I sound insolent - but until I see a living or fossilized Old God (or fossilized Old God footprints - that will do too), they don't exist except in imaginations.

You saw an Old God in the fifth blight. What was left after corruption anyways.

(1) No Mage/Magister has been able to communicate with an Archedemon (current or historical one) to draw on its power (like they are supposed to be able to with Old Gods), so it's pointless.

(2) Archedmons = Corrupted Old Gods is part of the Chantry propaganda against Magisters and Magic in general. 

Apparently the Wardens know for a fact that they're the real deal, and where to find the two that are left. I don't know how, but apparently they do. (It seems to have been in one of the books, and I haven't read those.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 19 décembre 2012 - 04:37 .

[LobselVith8]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Consider the main effects & goals of the Mage Rebellion:

- The disintegration of the Orlesian Chantry: it looses control over Circles AND Templars

- The weakening of Orlais (the most powerful civilization in Thedas): Orlesian Civil War

- The liberation of Mages: Mages rule themselves instead of being ruled by others

Would the Tevinter Imperium really want the competition of a mage-free society bordering the Imperium? From their own history, Tevinter seems to be as expansionist as the Orlesian Empire, and has been "distracted" by the Qunari incursion. I think the Imperium would prefer to conquer their neighbors, rather than support them in a bid for emancipation.

iOnlySignIn wrote...

And what Tevinter has/is:

- An alternative Chantry to the Orlesian one: led by the Black Divine

- The ancient and strong rival of Orlais: Orlais used to be a Tevinter province

- Magocracy: Mages had ruled themselves in Tevinter for ever

Only the Magisters rule in the Imperium, and I think the Magisters would only offer "assistance" if they planned to expand their reach into the region. I don't think the ideals of Anders and those in the mage underground allign with the Magisters in Tevinter.

iOnlySignIn wrote...

It wouldn't be surprising for me to discover in DA:I that the Mage Rebellion is actually directly and extensively sponsored by Tevinter. Instead of "studying ancinet Tevinter texts", Anders may have got the recipe for his bomb directly from a helping Magister (the real experts on ancient Tevinter Magic). Other Circles/Apostates would have received similar help from Tevinter as they rose up against the Chantry. The Libertarian Fraternity of Enchanters could have covertly received Tevinter sponsorship for centuries.

I think Anders could have gotten the recipe from Dworkin Glavonak, who was working on explosives in Vigil's Keep.

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Resulting from this, as the Inquisitor, you start with a nominal association with the Orlesian Chantry. But as you uncover this Tevinter scheme, you will have the option to switch sides and become a double agent, which leads to epic showdowns in the breathtaking Val Royeaux Grand Cathedral, against elite Chantry operatives including the infamous Sister Nightingale. After your victory, you return triumphantly to Minrathous, taking your rightful place in the Council of Magisters. Like this:

I think the option of siding with the Magisters sounds interesting. If Inquisition were to take the route of New Vegas and offer a multitude of options for the protagonist to ally himself (or herself) with different factions throughout the region, it could prove quite interesting.

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Would the Tevinter Imperium really want the competition of a mage-free society bordering the Imperium? From their own history, Tevinter seems to be as expansionist as the Orlesian Empire, and has been "distracted" by the Qunari incursion. I think the Imperium would prefer to conquer their neighbors, rather than support them in a bid for emancipation.

An enemy that is distracted by fighting itself is easier to conquer. Especially if one of the factions might greet you as allies.

[Medhia Nox]

@Plaintiff: Technology cannot be developed in a "mystery".

Technology is the practical application of science - and science is the exact opposite of mystery - it is revelation.

Magic works only because the writers say it does - most fantasy magic works this way. Preferring to obfuscate the "laws" of magic.

However - for magic to ever be called a science - the laws can NOT be obfuscated. Or rather - the more they are a mystery - the less it is a science. The less it is a science - the les it can be used as a technology.

====

BTW - there are MANY works of fantasy literature where magic is not at all a science. I don't think it is in Dragon Age either.

Unless you're one of those people who think everything can be reduced to a science.

[Herr Uhl]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: Technology cannot be developed in a "mystery".

Technology is the practical application of science - and science is the exact opposite of mystery - it is revelation.

Magic works only because the writers say it does - most fantasy magic works this way. Preferring to obfuscate the "laws" of magic.

However - for magic to ever be called a science - the laws can NOT be obfuscated. Or rather - the more they are a mystery - the less it is a science. The less it is a science - the les it can be used as a technology.

People were able to make technology long before there even was a concept of physics or the scientific method. You're assuming that magic can't be consistent. This is untrue for the DA setting.

[Medhia Nox]

@Herr Uhl: Magic has very little consistency in Dragon Age. Especially something like Blood Magic which seems to be able to do things - until it can't do things - and the requirements never seem consistent even a little bit.

Throw in the equally inconsistent "Taint" of the Darkspawn and it compounds the issue.

It's why beings like Avernus have to re-invent the wheel when trying to perform any sort of advancement in magic.

====

Fire - as a technology - could not be properly applied to civilization until it was understood how it was created in a reproducable manner.

Those that understood - became wizard/shamans/medicine men/witches - etc. today we call them scientists.

Those that did not understand (everyone else) - believed it to be magic - which it was not.

====

If DA was truly "Magic as science" - then in the thousands of years of its use - it would be far closer to fictional worlds like Eberron (a D&D fictional world).. or Harry Potter.. or Shadowrun (the best example - heck, MIT is changed to MIT&T with the extra T standing for Thaumaturgy.) where magic is ingrained in the society and taught in schools.

Evidently - they don't even teach you how to pass your damn Harrowing in DA.

I'm not saying there isn't "some" element of magic as science in Dragnon Age - I'm saying it's very little and poorly executed.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 décembre 2012 - 08:09 .

[Herr Uhl]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Fire - as a technology - could not be properly applied to civilization until it was understood how it was created in a reproducable manner.

Those that understood - became wizard/shamans/medicine men/witches - etc. today we call them scientists.

There are spells and rituals. They are replicable.

Your argument seems to be more circled around how since the wizards/shamans/medicine men/witches didn't know how sublimation worked, fire wasn't technology.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 19 décembre 2012 - 08:40 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Herr Uhl: No, what I'm saying is that due to it's fairly inconsistent nature in the fictional world of Thedas - magic ha not advanced (actually, it has deeply regressed)

My original argument was simply to wonder why secular powers would not attempt to study physical sciences on Thedas - and look to surpass the limited powers of a mage.

Magic remains esoteric on Thedas - more of an art than a science - except to that one dwarven girl in DA:O.

It's a pointless argument - more of a story criticism (and only opinion). I belive "magic as science" has been done MUCH better in other stories - and I'm not even sure that's what they're aiming for at all. I think it's more of a customer interpretation.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Medhia Nox wrote...

If DA was truly "Magic as science" - then in the thousands of years of its use - it would be far closer to fictional worlds like Eberron (a D&D fictional world).. or Harry Potter.. or Shadowrun (the best example - heck, MIT is changed to MIT&T with the extra T standing for Thaumaturgy.) where magic is ingrained in the society and taught in schools.

Evidently - they don't even teach you how to pass your damn Harrowing in DA.

I'm not saying there isn't "some" element of magic as science in Dragnon Age - I'm saying it's very little and poorly executed.

My impression is that that's partially because the dwarves, who are best at this kind of thing, don't spread what they know; Dagna outright says that the Circle doesn't have direct access to the dwarves knowledge. (According to what I understand, the dwarven palaces really do resemble something you'd see in Eberron.) There's still some of this on the surface, in the form of the Circles' communication stones, enchanted weapons, and apparently enchanted penknives, but we don't see most of this because it's not relevant to blowing things the (@#* up. (Unless you were talking about airships or Portkeys. While teleportation is possible, the Circles explicitly don't realize this. Probably because even if they did discover it, the Templars would quietly persuade them that they shouldn't have.)

Edit: Then there's the Chantry monopoly on lyrium and the fact that most people aren't mages, which prevent this from being Eberron or Harry Potter. But none of that means that the people with magic don't scientifically study it. They're just working from incomplete knowledge, dealing with limited means, and censored.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 19 décembre 2012 - 09:43 .