294 réponses à ce sujet

[KainD]

hhh89 wrote...

Supporting Tevinter isnt' necessarily the best for the mages. Most of the mages live in the Circles too (and we dont know how they're treated). The magister rule the society, but it's a continuos strugge where mages/magisters are murdered by other mages/magisters for obtaining more power. If you think that this is the best for mages, good luck with that.
I should've point out though that I was talking about my canon playthrough. I like to experience every choices in my games, so even if there are choices my canon PC wouldn't make, I could roleplay a different PC. In this case, a mage-supremacist PC.

I am not a mage-supremacist, but supporting the Tevinter would be a cannon choice for my mage PC. 
I think that supporting Tevinter is a good start for mages to have a better life, THEN the actual Tevinter politics and relations beetwen mages could be worked on. 

[The Elder King]

KainD wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Supporting Tevinter isnt' necessarily the best for the mages. Most of the mages live in the Circles too (and we dont know how they're treated). The magister rule the society, but it's a continuos strugge where mages/magisters are murdered by other mages/magisters for obtaining more power. If you think that this is the best for mages, good luck with that.
I should've point out though that I was talking about my canon playthrough. I like to experience every choices in my games, so even if there are choices my canon PC wouldn't make, I could roleplay a different PC. In this case, a mage-supremacist PC.

I am not a mage-supremacist, but supporting the Tevinter would be a cannon choice for my mage PC. 
I think that supporting Tevinter is a good start for mages to have a better life, THEN the actual Tevinter politics and relations beetwen mages could be worked on. 

I wasn't saying that you are one.
About changing  Tevinter's politics, do you think that the magisters will change? I doubt it. They didn't change after the Blight (which, regardless if the magisters were the first darkspwan or not, it's their fault), they're not going to change now.
Plus, I don't know if Tevinter would openly support the rebellion, or that it's a wise move for the mages to do. A lot of mages don't like Tevinter. There might be a lot of deserting. And an alliance between the Andrastian nations against Tevinter is likely, since they'd fear this alliance. Strong as it could be, Tevinter can't win against all the other nations, plus the qunari (who aren't going to hold back).

[KainD]

hhh89 wrote...

I wasn't saying that you are one.
About changing  Tevinter's politics, do you think that the magisters will change? I doubt it. They didn't change after the Blight (which, regardless if the magisters were the first darkspwan or not, it's their fault), they're not going to change now.
Plus, I don't know if Tevinter would openly support the rebellion, or that it's a wise move for the mages to do. A lot of mages don't like Tevinter. There might be a lot of deserting. And an alliance between the Andrastian nations against Tevinter is likely, since they'd fear this alliance. Strong as it could be, Tevinter can't win against all the other nations, plus the qunari (who aren't going to hold back).

I don't see why Tevinter wouldn't welcome the opportunity. It's a time for mages to unite, for the sake of all mages. There are a lot of trained mages from countless circles, who also have countless interesting magical knowledge to share with each other. There just needs to be a  strong, charismatic leader to unite everyone. 

Mages are strong, I think that if they are united among themselves and with Tevinter, they would be able to fight back the templars, and the chantry, and the Qunari, and the other nations. If they are going to stand their ground and defend, they might achieve all of that. Then they just need to sit down, when it's all over, and decide amongs themselves, what is the best course of action for all the mages to take. 

[Urazz]

I think the Imperium will probably sponsor some parts of the mage rebellion but I think alot of them won't really want to ally themselves with the Imperium because if it was discovered it would probably cause them to lose alot of support.

[Drakar123]

The amount of plot induced stupidity Tevinter seems to suffer from is ridiculous...There is absolutely nothing stopping them from destroying every one of their enemies with blood magic and dreamers.They could conquer every country on thedas without ever deploying their army if they really wanted to.Just mind control the kings and nobles or kill specific people in the fade and throw every country into a civil war.Once they have no strength left just swoop in and conquer them.

We saw what Cole could do with mind control and he did that subconciously.Magisters should be able to use far more powerful mind control and since no nation on thedas can do anything against it they would have no trouble conquering them.Mages can resist as can strong willed individuals if the blood mage isn't particulary skilled (like Iduna for instance) but the average noble or king ?They don't stand a chance especially when the person doing the controlling is a magister who have far more skill then someone like Iduna who showed us just what mind control was capable of.

The qunari especially are extremely vulnerable to mind control what with their blind obedience to the qun.it makes no sense that they are a threat to tevinter at all much less that they are winning.It's understandable that they are a big threat to the other thedosian nations due to their superior army but all it takes is one skilled magister to completely destroy them from within.Mind control the triumvirate,have them give all qunari secrets to tevinter and subtly weaken the qunari while the imperium makes their new shiny canons.

If this were the real world tevinter would be ruling the entire world without there being any chance for them to lose their power.

[Urzon]

I can see it now...

"This Mage Rebellion is brought to you by... the Tevinter Imperium! Taking care of your slave and blood magic needs since 1 TE!"

Modifié par Urzon, 17 décembre 2012 - 12:25 .

[The Hierophant]

Drakar123 wrote...

The amount of plot induced stupidity Tevinter seems to suffer from is ridiculous...There is absolutely nothing stopping them from destroying every one of their enemies with blood magic and dreamers.They could conquer every country on thedas without ever deploying their army if they really wanted to.Just mind control the kings and nobles or kill specific people in the fade and throw every country into a civil war.Once they have no strength left just swoop in and conquer them.

The First Blight mauled the Tevinter along with Andraste's subsequent invasion, Templar abilities developed to counter their magic, 2 Exalted Marches, and the Qunari owning them until they stalemated with Thedas. That's a lot of  casualties, and destroyed property over the millenia.

Also dreamers are extremly rare, and not every blood mage has the same combat aptitude as the Warden, Hawke, and friends.

We saw what Cole could do with mind control and he did that subconciously.Magisters should be able to use far more powerful mind control and since no nation on thedas can do anything against it they would have no trouble conquering them.Mages can resist as can strong willed individuals if the blood mage isn't particulary skilled (like Iduna for instance) but the average noble or king ?They don't stand a chance especially when the person doing the controlling is a magister who have far more skill then someone like Iduna who showed us just what mind control was capable of.

Cole is an abomination, and his skills are not the norm. 

The qunari especially are extremely vulnerable to mind control what with their blind obedience to the qun.it makes no sense that they are a threat to tevinter at all much less that they are winning.It's understandable that they are a big threat to the other thedosian nations due to their superior army but all it takes is one skilled magister to completely destroy them from within.Mind control the triumvirate,have them give all qunari secrets to tevinter and subtly weaken the qunari while the imperium makes their new shiny canons.

No where in the game or lore does it say that the Qunari are susceptible to mind control, and strictly following a philosophy is no way indicative of anyone's mental fortitude.

Plus the Imperium's slave trade is the only thing keeping their economy a float as they continue to fight only a fraction of the Qun's military. Mind you it's been noted, speculated, stated ingame by a few characters that the Qunari are building up their main forces for a probable full scale invasion of Thedas. I wouldn't be surprised if the Qun use the Tevinter as combat trainig for their unblooded warriors.

If this were the real world tevinter would be ruling the entire world without there being any chance for them to lose their power.

The Roman Empire?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 17 décembre 2012 - 12:30 .

[Destroyer Deathsmane]

The Tevinter Imperium and the Qunari are engaged in a fullscale war with each other , niether has the resources to spare to fuond or promote the mage - templar war in Orlais and the rest of Thedas.

Both would benefit from it if the could . For the tevinter it would mean more lands ruled by mages who are more likely to aide them in the war against the Qunari , while for the Qunari the war could provide them with Allies in the form of nations and populations that can be converted to the way of the Qun .

[Drakar123]

The first blight and andraste's invasion are irrelevant.The imperium lost a lot of soldiers and territory but it's arcane knowledge was not reduced in any way since Minrathous never fell and it has the greatest arcane library in all of thedas.Their knowledge of mind control would not have suffered in any way.Templar abilities do nothing against blood magic and while they may be effective against circle mages the odds of a templar even a knight commander beating a magister are incredibly low at best.

Dreamers while rare are still present in tevinter.One sklled dreamer could just kill the qunari triumvirate effortlesly and then do it again whenever they appoint a new one.The qunari would be leaderless the majority of the time and this would weaken them greatly if not destroy them.It would be better to send magisters to discuss a peace treaty and mind control them though.

While cole is an abomination Iduna is not and her blood magic was just as impressive.There is no way you can convince me magisters who practiced blood magic for thousands of years and have more knowledge of it then anyone else would be less skilled then some random prostitute maleficar who had nowhere near the access to the kind of knowledge an average magister does.

The qunari are individually no more suspectable to blood magic then anyone else.The reason they they are so vulnerable to it is because all of them blindly obey orders without question.When you control the leaders in such a society you could get away with quite a lot without people doubting you.

And yes the roman empire would have had no trouble conquering all the barbarian tribes if it was ruled by blood mages.

[The Elder King]

Drakar123 wrote...

While cole is an abomination Iduna is not and her blood magic was just as impressive.There is no way you can convince me magisters who practiced blood magic for thousands of years and have more knowledge of it then anyone else would be less skilled then some random prostitute maleficar who had nowhere near the access to the kind of knowledge an average magister does.

Idunna wasn't that impressive. All you need is enough level of willpower, and every Hawke, no matter the classes, could snap out of control. And Anders or Bethany could easily stop the control.

[Drakar123]

Hawke was the protagonist so he had plot armor and iduna was not a very skilled blood mage.There is no reason to believe the templars who were her clients were weak willed.Anders,Bethany and Merill are all very talented and powerful mages and because they are mages they can resist mind control.Regular people cannot do so.Idunna can order people to kill themselves and control their thoughts and you don't think that's impressive ?It must take a lot to impress you then.Someone like that could take over a country and magisters should be as capable as cole was if not more.

[MisterJB]

BlueMagitek wrote...
I disagree, we must utilize the power of Tevinter against the Qunari assembled to the North.

 
While I find it extremely hard to defend people who wish to impose a lifestyle on the entire world for "their own good", the Qun does work toward improving one's community.
The Magisters just want to turn Thedas into their personal playground.

...actually, that begs the question, if some rookie Dreamer can kill people hundreds of miles away, why aren't the Tevinter using this against the Qunari?  Even in a well oiled machine (if the Arishock went crazy, for instance, they could just replace him), if you break enough, it will, if nothing else, delay it.

I imagine that after 300 years fighting the same nation, they have discovered ways of protecting themselves. They do have acess to strange substances that seem to be absent from Thedas such as the Qamek. The mind wiping one, not the gunpowder.

[Drakar123]

You can't defend against magic without using magic.The qunari are so scared of magic there is no way a dreamer could survive under the qun so they shouldn't even know what one is much less how to defend against one.Qamek is just drugs or a neurotoxin of sorts.

[Urzon]

The Qunari aren't scared of magic. They just see it as something very dangerous, because it is. Mages have their place and purpose in the Qun, and so would a Dreamer. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the Qunari do have a couple of Dreamers, and they run interference against the Tevinter's Dreamers.

Wow... Dreamer War. That would be kinda awesome to watch.

[Drakar123]

They are worse towards their mages then even the most horrible templars.I find it highly likely that any qunari dreamers who happen to be born are deemed too dangerous and killed without anyone even realizing what they are.The reason most dreamers don't survive is because they are constantly plagued by demons.There is no way the qunari would let someone as dangerous as a dreamer live.The kind of damage a dreamer abomination could cause is immense.

[The Elder King]

With the dreamers Bioware created a plothole generator. There's no reason for explain why Tevinter didn't use dreamers against Andraste, the qunari, the EM, or to generally reconquer Thedas before the qunari invasion.

[Drakar123]

That's what I think too.Andraste can be explained if she was actually a very powerful mage or the Dumat OGB but there is no way in hell Tevinter couldn't have reconquered thedas with as few as 5-10 dreamers maybe even just 1 would have been enough.I mean one could use a dreamer to keep killing the white divine every time a new one got elected.That is a pretty good way to stop exalted marches.Or to threaten foreign kings with death by dreamer if they don't do what you say.

[Urzon]

The Qunari don't kill people unless they are conquering someone, and that is only if they have too. They see mages as dangerous, and they treat them harshly if they step out of line. The same line of reasoning would apply to Dreamers as well. They would set up precautions to help them combat demons, and outside influences, but they would never kill them outright. Especially something that could be as useful as a Dreamer.

[iOnlySignIn]

hhh89 wrote...

I'm going to play as a mage PC in my first playthrough, and I'll send Tevinter to hell if I have the choice. Playing a mage=/=supporting Tevinter.

Indeed. This is where the interesting, personal choice comes in.

PurebredCorn wrote...

Doesn't Leliana basically say the Devine suspects the Tevinter Magisters to be behind the mage rebellion?

Not directly in game. She says they suspect "an outside group". But it's pretty obvious to me what that group is.

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

Personally I find politics a fascinating thing to throw into the mix with ancient dragons, old gods, and what have you. Then again, I'm a fan of talky fantasy books like George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series which do feature their share of characters involved in political wheeling and dealing, intrigue, and manipulation. 

Same as I. If I cannot apply Sun Tzu's Art of War to a process I begin to loose interest in it.

MisterJB wrote...

Works for me. I've hoped to fight a war against them for some time. 
The hour has come to finish what Andraste started and free Northern Thedas.

This is a perfectly valid choice too. This is meaningful player choice that affects main plot. I just wish BioWare's final product includes this or something even better.

MisterJB wrote...

I also doubt any side the player can pick in this war; Templar or Mage; will lead to any significant changes that vary wildly. This is isn't "New Vegas", Bioware wants to make more games and they are unwilling to extablish a canon.
So, what I could see is reconciling Templars and Mages to fight off an invasion from Tevinter regardless of Qunari presence.

It's too early to be this pessimistic but I can see where you're coming from.

Whether BioWare can finally muster up the courage to let players pick their side Witcher 2 style, or continue their choices don't matter to the main plot tradition remains to be seen.

[BlueMagitek]

Drakar123 wrote...

The first blight and andraste's invasion are irrelevant.The imperium lost a lot of soldiers and territory but it's arcane knowledge was not reduced in any way
since Minrathous never fell and it has the greatest arcane library in
all of thedas.Their knowledge of mind control would not have suffered in
any way.Templar abilities do nothing against blood magic and while they
may be effective against circle mages the odds of a templar even a
knight commander beating a magister are incredibly low at best.

If
I recall correctly, there are codexes in DA2 going over how
investigators are discovering grimoires under hidden chambers of
Kirkwall that were thought to be lost to the ages.  Lost to the ages !=
available elsewhere.  So I'm going to disagree with you on that.

MisterJB wrote...

While I find it extremely hard to defend people who wish to impose a lifestyle on the entire world for "their own good", the Qun does work toward improving one's community.
The Magisters just want to turn Thedas into their personal playground.

I imagine that after 300 years fighting the same nation, they have discovered ways of protecting themselves. They do have acess to strange substances that seem to be absent from Thedas such as the Qamek. The mind wiping one, not the gunpowder.

Both Tevinter and the Qunari are monsterous, but at least the Tevinter are not necessarily unified.  There seems to be much infighting between Magisters over power, as opposed to the solidarity of the Qun.   Which is better for everyone else.

Perhaps.  Maybe the Qunari leaders are hiding under a mountain of Lyrium for protection.
More likely, I think, is that the Fade is a ***** to navigate, so Dreamers, while powerful, don't have a map of the War-- uh, Fade, to get around.

[Drakar123]

Dreamers have been extinct outside of tevinter for two ages for a reason.Even if qunari don't kill them without a reason although I think they do since they could potentially be too dangerous.Any dreamers born to the qunari would be killeld by demons before anyone even realizes their talents and qunari have far less mages then anyone else

Modifié par Drakar123, 17 décembre 2012 - 01:55 .

[pmac_tk421]

I have my doubts about them sponsering it from the beginning, but I do think that once it starts to pick up momentum they will provide support.

[Beerfish]

The Tevinters would be stupid to be behind this discord and possible little war. It plays right into the hands of the horned devils the Qunari.

[Drakar123]

Some knowledge may have been "lost to the ages'' but the vast majority of Tevinter's knowledge is in Minrathous sicne it's the capital and magisters live there.Even if they did lose some knowledge magisters can control demons and make them give up blood magic secrets.I find it unliekly they stored any significant tomes in kirkwall which was known for being a slave hub and not the center of arcane research.

Modifié par Drakar123, 17 décembre 2012 - 01:56 .

[iOnlySignIn]

Youth4Ever wrote...

I didn't receive the impression the Orlesian civil war a result of the Mage rebellion. The nobility moved against Celene long before the Enchanters convened at the White Spire. The civil war and rebellion may be a Tevinter gain, but I don't think they orchestrated a plot against Orlais. I think they'd work out an elaborate scheme like this for their current enemy, the Qunari.

Oh but everything is connected to each other. You can say the Balkan situation had nothing to do with triggering WWI because the arms race between the European superpowers started long before that, but that is evidently not true.

Tevinter obviously also has many enemies besides the Qunari. If you read the history of Byzantine Empire, you'll see that it fights Christians just as much as it fights Muslims, if not more frequent and savagely.

hhh89 wrote...

Supporting Tevinter isnt' necessarily the best for the mages. Most of the mages live in the Circles too (and we dont know how they're treated). The magister rule the society, but it's a continuos strugge where mages/magisters are murdered by other mages/magisters for obtaining more power. If you think that this is the best for mages, good luck with that.

I should've point out though that I was talking about my canon playthrough. I like to experience every choices in my games, so even if there are choices my canon PC wouldn't make, I could roleplay a different PC. In this case, a mage-supremacist PC.

Exactly.

Interesting choices are morally grey naturally, like this. 

Drakar123 wrote...

You can't defend against magic without using magic.

Templars and Dwarves