294 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Celene II wrote...

Not wanting 2 political enemies aside, my mage would never want the blood mage baby killing evil stereotypical bad mage to be the cause of my freedom.

i am not evil
i dont keep slaves
i want nothing to do with the tevinter imperium and their comic book villain sensibilities.

Its a far cry from im ripping you from you family and locking you in a tower forever or until you become evil and then turning you into a lobotomized veggie to we rule everyone and everyone that doesnt have magic is a 2nd class citizen.

There is a middle ground. So having the imperium be the cause of the war does not fit a lot of mage players idea.

How about the reason for the war is mages dont want to be slaves anymore?

Well : 

1) Mages aren't really slaves
2) "Freedom" coming from a dark source would fit the dark world of Dragon Age. ~_^

Makes sense.

[Swagger7]

Honestly I don't see what Tevinter would gain by sponsoring the Mage Rebellion. Having a nation where mages are free but don't rule over everyone else seems like it would only fuel ideas of rebellion by non-mages within the Imperium.  Plus, I might be wrong but the Chantry seems like it would come to the aid of Tevinter if the Qunari were threatening them.  After all, the Qunari are a greater threat to the Chantry itself.  With the chaos of a civil war going on, there would be a period when the Chantry lands wouldn't be able to assist against the Qunari, which would be the perfect time for the Qunari to invade.  The only way I can see the Imperium supporting the rebellion is if they intend to cause chaos and then invade themselves, which is possible, but seems rather risky in the face of the Qunari threat.

Time will tell.....

Modifié par Swagger7, 17 décembre 2012 - 08:07 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Intelligent and charismatic mundanes will, however, be overmatched by intelligent and charismatic mages.

I don't see why. Magic does not make someone more or less charismatic or intelligent. Unless you are using blood magic in which case your charisma doesn't really matter.

And how do you know that Andraste didn't use blood magic to bolster her charm?

There is no reason to believe Andraste was a mage at all, let alone a blood mage. Besides, she fought for freedom from the people who did use blood magic.
Sure, people are hypocrites but I'd like some evidence before I believe Andraste used blood magic.

Modifié par MisterJB, 17 décembre 2012 - 08:53 .

[Drakar123]

MisterJB wrote...

Drakar123 wrote...
Edit:Mages are superior since magic gives them abilities mundanes can never hope to match.They can do everything mundanes can but better and faster and the true capabilities of magic have not yet bene discovered.Soul manipulation,teleportation,reviving the dead,conjuring objects.How can anyone say people who could potentially be capable of such things are not superior to those who aren't ?Anyway I hav to go to sleep...

No, it gives them an advantage in certain areas such combat or healing. Magic is impressive and dangerous, yes, but intelligent and charismatic mundanes can do things mages couldn't. Even if Andraste was a mage, she untied her followers trough her strenght of will, not blood magic, and threw down Souther Tevinter. Likewise, Maferath did what the Magisters couldn't. He defeated Andraste.

You're still using the false notion that what one can do, makes one superior to someone who can't. I can't run like a leopard. Is the leopard superior to me?
Or does "my" ability to split the atom make me superior to the leopard? Well, nuclear energy was "invented" by mundanes. I doubt the mages of Thedas could do it.

How is it a false notion ?If someone is capable of more then someone else then that person is superor.A leopard is superior to a human when it comes to running but overall humans are superior to leopards.Just because some animals are better at certain things then us doesn't mean they are superior,only that they are better at certain things.What matters is overall ability,not a single trait and due to our great intelligence and oposable thumbs we are better then all other animals.In the same way mages are better then mundanes because they can do everything mundanes can do but faster,better and are capable of many things mundanes would never be able to accomplish.They are superior in absolutely every way.This cannot be denied.Magic also makes it far easier to identify intelligent individuals since the smarter you are the better mage you are.Due to this leaders in mageocracies are always competent.The same cannot be said fro any of our political systems.

Modifié par Drakar123, 17 décembre 2012 - 12:49 .

[Augustei]

It would actually be quite interesting if the Mage Rebellion was sponsored by Tevinter since Lord Seeker Lambert Van Reeves (the guy leading the Templars / Seekers if he's still alive) Is from Tevinter and was originally best friends with the now Black Divine before he obtained that title

[Augustei]

Double-Post >=(

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 17 décembre 2012 - 01:03 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

MisterJB wrote...

And how do you know that Andraste didn't use blood magic to bolster her charm?

There is no reason to believe Andraste was a mage at all, let alone a blood mage. Besides, she fought for freedom from the people who did use blood magic.
Sure, people are hypocrites but I'd like some evidence before I believe Andraste used blood magic.

It wouldn't necessarily be hypocritical of Andraste to use blood magic. Using it to bolster her charm, sure, but just blood magic in general? The only guidelines on the use of magic directly attributed to Andraste are "Magic exists to serve man and never to rule over him," and "Those who bring harm to the least of his people are (branded?) and accursed by the Maker." Harming yourself to fuel magic doesn't violate either.

As for evidence... well, I don't think there necessarily is any. A world in which Andraste was the Maker's chosen would probably look the same as one where she was a blood mage, by the time a thousand years or so had passed. So, she could just as easily be either. Or, actually, she could have been both.

[MisterJB]

Drakar123 wrote...
How is it a false notion ?If someone is capable of more then someone else then that person is superor.A leopard is superior to a human when it comes to running but overall humans are superior to leopards.Just because some animals are better at certain things then us doesn't mean they are superior,only that they are better at certain things.What matters is overall ability,not a single trait and due to our great intelligence and oposable thumbs we are better then all other animals.In the same way mages are better then mundanes because they can do everything mundanes can do but faster,better and are capable of many things mundanes would never be able to accomplish.They are superior in absolutely every way.This cannot be denied.Magic also makes it far easier to identify intelligent individuals since the smarter you are the better mage you are.Due to this leaders in mageocracies are always competent.The same cannot be said fro any of our political systems.

It can be denied. I've denied it and I'll continue to deny it. I've given you examples of mundanes who are much more remarkable individuals than many mages. Magical abilities give mages many advantages over mundanes, that is true, but I'd like to see Emille DeLaucett free Ferelden from Orlesian occupation. Or Uldred prwevent my Warrior from removing his head from his shoulders.
They can't? Well, obviously magic does not give mages the ability to do anything. Despite what you may claim, intelligence is not a straight line. It can manifest in many different ways. It's why some are mathematical genius while others are brilliant writers and others still are great politicians. The most intelligent is very rarely the most qualified to rule and being a powerful mage is certainly no indication of it.
The magisters are powerful but Tevinter has become a cesspool kept together by slavery and blood magic. They are not competent.

And regardless, even if mages were superior in every way; which they aren't; mundanes still have the same mental and emotional capabilities of mages and thus deserve the same rights.
Well, at least you're honest in your mage supremacy and disregard for mundane life. The magisters like to pretend they serve the greater good while turnng Thedas into their personal playground.

Modifié par MisterJB, 17 décembre 2012 - 05:34 .

[MisterJB]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
It wouldn't necessarily be hypocritical of Andraste to use blood magic. Using it to bolster her charm, sure, but just blood magic in general? The only guidelines on the use of magic directly attributed to Andraste are "Magic exists to serve man and never to rule over him," and "Those who bring harm to the least of his people are (branded?) and accursed by the Maker." Harming yourself to fuel magic doesn't violate either.

As for evidence... well, I don't think there necessarily is any. A world in which Andraste was the Maker's chosen would probably look the same as one where she was a blood mage, by the time a thousand years or so had passed. So, she could just as easily be either. Or, actually, she could have been both.

You're right.

[Drakar123]

MisterJB wrote...

Drakar123 wrote...
How is it a false notion ?If someone is capable of more then someone else then that person is superor.A leopard is superior to a human when it comes to running but overall humans are superior to leopards.Just because some animals are better at certain things then us doesn't mean they are superior,only that they are better at certain things.What matters is overall ability,not a single trait and due to our great intelligence and oposable thumbs we are better then all other animals.In the same way mages are better then mundanes because they can do everything mundanes can do but faster,better and are capable of many things mundanes would never be able to accomplish.They are superior in absolutely every way.This cannot be denied.Magic also makes it far easier to identify intelligent individuals since the smarter you are the better mage you are.Due to this leaders in mageocracies are always competent.The same cannot be said fro any of our political systems.

It can be denied. I've denied it and I'll continue to deny it. I've given you examples of mundanes who are much more remarkable individuals than many mages. Magical abilities give mages many advantages over mundanes, that is true, but I'd like to see Emille DeLaucett free Ferelden from Orlesian occupation. Or Uldred prwevent my Warrior from removing his head from his shoulders.
They can't? Well, obviously magic does not give mages the ability to do anything. Despite what you may claim, intelligence is not a straight line. It can manifest in many different ways. It's why some are mathematical genius while others are brilliant writers and others still are great politicians. The most intelligent is very rarely the most qualified to rule and being a powerful mage is certainly no indication of it.
The magisters are powerful but Tevinter has become a cesspool kept together by slavery and blood magic. They are not competent.

And regardless, even if mages were superior in every way; which they aren't; mundanes still have the same mental and emotional capabilities of mages and thus deserve the same rights.
Well, at least you're honest in your mage supremacy and disregard for mundane life. The magisters like to pretend they serve the greater good while turnng Thedas into their personal playground.

You may deny it but it's the truth and no mundane no matter how remarkable can compare to a mage with the same qualities.On average a mage is far superior to a mundane.And Emile as horribly pathetic as he is could pull it off if he learned blood magic.He could defeat multiple experienced warriors who trained their entire lives just because he has magic.

Uldred could have if not for the blight and his stupidity which made him summon demons taken over the throne of ferelden without too much effort.He may not have beaten you in combat but that does not make mudanes equal to mages.Your warrior was the hero of ferelden,a legendary grey warden who was the best mundanes had to offer while Uldred was an average if power hungry senior enchanter and the warden who was remarkably powerful had a lot of trouble bringing him down.When it came to other qualities he was far inferior to the warden but his magic allowed him to fight him on equal ground.If that does not prove mage superiority I don't know what does.If Uldred was as remarkable an individual as the warden and had magic on top of it he could have taken over both feelden and orlais and founded his own empire

As for intelligence I am aware it maifests in many ways but magic does provide a sure fire way to tell of someone is intelligent or not even if it has it's flaws.I disagree that mundanes should have the same rights.They should be used by the mages to the fullest like we use our sheep and cows but that's it.Other animals can feel pain just like we can but we still kill them,torture them and such and nobody bats an eyelash.Nothing wrong with that.The strong dominate the weak.Survival of the fittest is one of the most basic laws of nature and our manufactured morals will not change that.Yes I am a mage supermacist but so what ?You say it lke its a bad thing.Mages are superior.Nothing will change that.They have every right to do whatever they wish with the lives of mundanes.I do have a problem with how the Tevinters also sell their mages into slavery.Mages should not be able to become slaves imo.Only mundanes.

[The Elder King]

Drakar123 wrote...

Mages are superior.Nothing will change that.They have every right to do whatever they wish with the lives of mundanes.I do have a problem with how the Tevinters also sell their mages into slavery.Mages should not be able to become slaves imo.Only mundanes.

You know, I'm pretty neutral to the whole mage-templar conflict, but if the mage rebellion would support this stance, they could go straight to the Maker/Dread Wolf. Regardless if my PC is a mage or not (unless I roleplay a mage supremacist PC, which wouldn't be my canon).
Regardles, you do know that what you're proposing is almost surely never going to happen in a DA game, right?

Modifié par hhh89, 17 décembre 2012 - 06:30 .

[MisterJB]

If you insist on comparing mundanes with cattle, I'm done arguing with you. We're just not on the same page. You're even contradicting yourself. You admit that there are mundanes superior in skills to mages and then go on to say that mages have the right to enslave mundanes because of their superior abilities despite the fact you just admitted some mundanes have superior skills to many mages.

One last quip. Survival of the fittest is a law of nature. Humans, however, have characteristics such as empathy which scientists can't explain where it comes from because it makes no sense from an evolutionary viewpoint. (I'm not a creationist, BTW) We should not fail to use it.

Alternativelly, mundanes have dominated mages for the last millenia. Maybe they are the fittest race. If you attribute no value to human-made moralities; which is valid,m I admit; then you can't also say that mages have the right to rule.

[Drakar123]

You never know.It might become an option should the mages ever win the war and found their own nation.Try to outmagister the magisters if you will.And how is anything I said wrong ?Some people might find it monsterous and it might go against their values but it's the truth.

[Drakar123]

MisterJB wrote...

If you insist on comparing mundanes with cattle, I'm done arguing with you. We're just not on the same page. You're even contradicting yourself. You admit that there are mundanes superior in skills to mages and then go on to say that mages have the right to enslave mundanes because of their superior abilities despite the fact you just admitted some mundanes have superior skills to many mages.

One last quip. Survival of the fittest is a law of nature. Humans, however, have characteristics such as empathy which scientists can't explain where it comes from because it makes no sense from an evolutionary viewpoint. (I'm not a creationist, BTW) We should not fail to use it.

Alternativelly, mundanes have dominated mages for the last millenia. Maybe they are the fittest race. If you attribute no value to human-made moralities; which is valid,m I admit; then you can't also say that mages have the right to rule.

I do not contradict myself.Mundanes can be superior in certain areas to mages much like a leopard can run faster then a human but it does not change the fact that is human superiority over leopards.Empathy could be explained I am sure.I do not believe in any gods but I would rather we not discuss the matter of creationism.I do not hink mages have the ''right'' to rule over mundanes but that evoluntinary speaking such a thing is preferable and for the good of all in the long run.Due to this I support mage domination over mundanes not because I believe in any right.Rights are human made concepts.

[The Elder King]

Drakar123 wrote...

You never know.It might become an option should the mages ever win the war and found their own nation.Try to outmagister the magisters if you will.And how is anything I said wrong ?Some people might find it monsterous and it might go against their values but it's the truth.

For founding a nation, they need mundanes (otherwise the most you can found is a city). And mundanes aren't going to join the new nation willingly. If you think that you can easily create a slave state, you're wrong. And the Tevinter isn't going to allow the formation of another mage-supremacist state.
Regardless, I'm not saying that whay you're saying is wrong (well, I think it's wrong, but it's not the reason I said it's not going to happen). I'm saying that it'll not happen because Bioware isn't going to make the PC act as a pure "evil" character. And founding a new, mage-supremacist, slavery-based state will probably be classified by them as "evil".

[The Elder King]

Drakar123 wrote...



I do not contradict myself.Mundanes can be superior in certain areas to mages much like a leopard can run faster then a human but it does not change the fact that is human superiority over leopards.Empathy could be explained I am sure.I do not believe in any gods but I would rather we not discuss the matter of creationism.I do not hink mages have the ''right'' to rule over mundanes but that evoluntinary speaking such a thing is preferable and for the good of all in the long run.Due to this I support mage domination over mundanes not because I believe in any right.Rights are human made concepts.

Mages and non-mages are from the same race (humans, elves or qunari). Comparing mage and non-mage to a human and a leopard (two different races) is stupid.
Centuries ago, white people thought that black people were inferior. So by your logic, they were right in enslaving them?

[Drakar123]

They are but not all people in the same race are equal.For the good of their respective races mages should rule over mundanes and have more kids.The difference between a mage and a mundane is much larger then the difference between a white and black guy.In that situtation the superiority and inferiority of a race is arguable but there is no question mages are superior to mundanes.They might as well be completely different species.

And as for a mage nation I fully suport Tevinter and wish to see them enter a new golden age.Should the mages go to tevinter then there would be no issue doing any of the things you described.Perhasps some day the imperium will rule all of thedas again.

Modifié par Drakar123, 17 décembre 2012 - 06:35 .

[MisterJB]

Drakar123 wrote...
I do not contradict myself.Mundanes can be superior in certain areas to mages much like a leopard can run faster then a human but it does not change the fact that is human superiority over leopards.

Yes, you did. There are mundanes who are the superiors of mages in everything. From fighting to planning. By your logic, these mundanes should rule and those mages should be enslaved

Empathy could be explained I am sure.

Eventually, perhaps. We haven't yet.

I do not hink mages have the ''right'' to rule over mundanes but that evoluntinary speaking such a thing is preferable and for the good of all in the long run.Due to this I support mage domination over mundanes not because I believe in any right.

It's for the good of mages, that is all. Or would you claim that human rule on this planet has benefited animals?

[Drakar123]

There are no mundanes who are superior to mages in everything.No mundane no matter who they are could just walk into a room full of nobles and take over a country.No mundane could invade god's palace.No mundane can erase every trace of a city and sink it into the sea in the medieval ages.Once magic in thedas becomes as advanced as science in our world the difference between mundanes and mages will become even more apparent.Teleportation and immortality will be possible,were possible during the time of ancient Arlathan.Who knows what else they will accomplish ?.The humans of today could not do such a thing.

And it's for the good of humans as a whole.Do you think it's preferable for all humans to have magic or a very small amount of them if any at all ?Eventually mundanes would go extinct and this would benefit the human race as a whole.Evolutionary it's better for humans,elves and qunari to let mages rule.Animals are only there for our convenience.They are irrelevant.

[MisterJB]

Of course there are mundanes superior to mages in every way. Just like there are mages who can barely light a candle, there are mundanes who can extablish dinasties. The fact that there are some mages who could use blood magic to control the minds of influentials doesn't change that fact.

And science should be developed as a way to equalize the two warring factions. Not supressed to ensure the supremacy of one.

[The Hierophant]

Drakar123 wrote...

There are no mundanes who are superior to mages in everything.No mundane no matter who they are could just walk into a room full of nobles and take over a country.No mundane could invade god's palace.No mundane can erase every trace of a city and sink it into the sea in the medieval ages.Once magic in thedas becomes as advanced as science in our world the difference between mundanes and mages will become even more apparent.Teleportation and immortality will be possible,were possible during the time of ancient Arlathan.Who knows what else they will accomplish ?.The humans of today could not do such a thing.

And it's for the good of humans as a whole.Do you think it's preferable for all humans to have magic or a very small amount of them if any at all ?Eventually mundanes would go extinct and this would benefit the human race as a whole.Evolutionary it's better for humans,elves and qunari to let mages rule.Animals are only there for our convenience.They are irrelevant.

Nope you paint an all mage society as immaculate while completely ignoring how the Arlathan, and the Tevinter Empire fell, and the negatives like abuse of power, mass possession, continental slavery to fuel blood magic between warring nations.

Plus there's a lot of in game examples that mages are not more intelligent or innovative than mundanes as the Dalish or the Tevinter have yet to replicate Arlathan's achievements.

[Drakar123]

The best mages are better the the best mundanes and the worst mages are better then the worst mundanes.Mage superiority is a fact,not something that's argueable.

Both Arlathan and Tevinter fell due to special circumstances.Neither would have fallen otherwise.Both Tevinter and Arlathan serve to prove my point not disprove it.Tevinter would still be rullng thedas today if they never created the darkspawn without there ever being any chance for them to lose their power.To do this they had to challenge god.

That's definitely not something that's guaranteed to happen in every mage ruled society.Abuse of power and continental slavery were something unique to tevinter because unlike Arlathan not all tevinter citizens were mages so they treated the inferior mundanes as property.Both were directed towards mundanes so they don't matter much.Mass possesion isn't a problem in tevinter because unlike in other andrasitan nations mages there do not make deals with demons and let them possess them.They summon them and enslave them.Such things are not taught in circles.If they were templars would have no chance in hell of stopping the mages.Danarius was able to summon a very large number of demons and use them to defend his mantion.Circle mages could not do the same.Possession isn't really a problem unless mages are not permitted to learn how to control demons.

Arlathan is the kind of society I said a mage ruled nation will turn into.Non mages will go extinct and mages will accomplish incredible feats the best scientists of today could never hope to match.The only reason it fell is because the elves became mortal and due to this lost a lot of their knowledge.Knowledge in Arlathan relied on the elders living forever.And innovation is far ore likely to come from a 1000 year old then a regular person.Elves could due to their immortality do things we could never dream of.

Other countries did not replicate it's achievements because they have nowhere near as many mages and do not permit mages to learn too much or research certain things less they become too dangerous.

[The Hierophant]

Remember that the Tevinter a mage dominated society destroyed Arlathan, and almost 2 thousand years later there's no mention by any characters or lore that they've successfully replicated the later's achievements.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 17 décembre 2012 - 07:56 .

[Drakar123]

Elves in Arlathan lived forever.Regular people could no replicate the achievements of a people who could have far more experience then them.Tevinter destroyed Arlathan for two reasons.One was that the elves suddenly lost their immortality which probably lead to complete societal collapse and total anarchy and the other is because they had the help of the old gods.Arlathan in it's prime could have probably taken all the countries of current day thedas combined and won without too much trouble.And magisters did invent many things.Take a look at Fenris for instance.Making something like him in a medieval society is quite an achievement.Magisters do spend their time researching and inventing things since such things raise their rank in society.All of present day's thedas magical knowledge came from tevinter.They have made quite a lot of impressive discoveries.Never mind that they were able to break on of the cardinal rules of magic and challenge god.

[The Hierophant]

The Dalish claimed that their ancestors were immortal, and the building of Eluvians are in no way indicative of their battle prowess. Plus the Dalish claimed that they ran instead fighting.

Fenris being turned into a lyrium ghost brings no benefits to society as a whole aside from killing, or burglary. Excluding that the Magisters hoard discoveries to themselves due to competion, the benefits of magical knowledege from Tevinter is ambiguous as there is little to no mention of the distinction between non Imperium affiliated Circle discoveries, and Imperium Circle/Magister discoveries.

Also i wouldn't consider that being gullible enough to follow the instructions of an disembodied voice that includes loitering in the Fade's equivalent of a bio hazardous dump site, and contracting a highly infectious magical plague, and nearly destroying their empire as challenging the Maker.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 17 décembre 2012 - 08:52 .