30 réponses à ce sujet

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Not trying to be sexist just curious but for some reason the whole Dragon Age series seems like it is written to appeal more to the female audience, anyone else get this impression? Not having a go at anyone I just find it 'unique', to be fair it would seem most games these days are writen to appeal more to males, I mean we got the far superior Witcher series so I guess it is about time women got a series of games made to appeal more to them, all the more power to ya girlfriend.

Considering the fanbase perhaps it is time to put a female lead on the cover? I mean the canon Warden and Hawke were both depicted as male so perhaps it is time for a female to take the lead? 

[Allan Schumacher]

Darrah has mentioned that female protagonist will likely be featured in marketing.

[David Gaider]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
Not trying to be sexist just curious but for some reason the whole Dragon Age series seems like it is written to appeal more to the female audience, anyone else get this impression? Not having a go at anyone I just find it 'unique', to be fair it would seem most games these days are writen to appeal more to males, I mean we got the far superior Witcher series so I guess it is about time women got a series of games made to appeal more to them, all the more power to ya girlfriend.

I'm uncertain what we do for female fans that we don't also regularly do for male fans. I suppose if the Witcher series is the benchmark you're using, the difference might make it seem unbalanced, but that's a rather dubious measuring stick if you ask me.

It's nice that you throw the female fans a bone, however, "far inferior" as it might be. I'm sure they all appreciate the magnanimous effort that must take on your part.

[Allan Schumacher]

This thread is already somewhat potentially dangerous due to the subject matter.

I'd prefer to keep the discussion to pros/cons of female protagonists in advertising (or even keep it wider for gaming in general), and keep the real world politicking out of it.

[Allan Schumacher]

FreshIstay wrote...

So is my response the only one that get's deleted? or maybe you could delte all my original, and the response to it..ya know, in the name of equality.

Because yours was the most recent, yes.  Others are already there, already been read, and so forth.

I'm stopping the tangent.  This isn't about "equality" but stopping the particular tangent from going back and forth.

[John Epler]

Darth Death wrote...

I guess the resources poured into being a woman protagonist isn't enough to satisfy the feminist gamer, I see.

I hardly think that a demographic that represents almost half of those who play games asking for a commensurate amount of resources to be spent on inclusivity towards them as a group qualifies as anything other than eminently reasonable.

I should also mention that saying 'girls don't play X type of game, so why spend any resources on them?' is a great exercise in circular logic. Because certain types of games are not inclusive of the female demographic, they don't tend to play them in as great of numbers. So we use that to say 'well they're not playing them, so why spend any resources?', without acknowledging that if said games -were- more inclusive, they might see a far more even division along gender lines of people who enjoy those games.

I, personally, would rather be inclusive rather than exclusive, and I'm glad I work with a lot of people who feel the same way. You're certainly free to disagree, but it's something we're pretty keen on.

[David Gaider]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
Wanting to have advertisements and the game cover/package itself reflect something other than the standard and typical artwork and hero in order to better showcase the options in the game isn't unreasonable, imo.

Not unreasonable. The problematic part, as I understand it, comes in when people who are already knowledgeable about the game, and already willing to buy into it, say what they'd like to see on the box art. And that's problematic because, while they'd clearly like to see the box art made to appeal to them that's not who box art is intended for. It's made to attract buyers who don't know anything about the game, not make people who already bought the game (or plan to) feel better about it.

This is not to say that having a female PC depicted on the box or, in fact, that anything other than the "action hero guy" would be unacceptable... just that getting direction from hardcore fans is maybe not what Marketing is really interested in. Maybe they should be, I don't know. Either way, if you're asking "why isn't the box art made with me in mind?" then there's the likely answer.

[Allan Schumacher]

Why is The Witcher series a 'dubious benchmark'?

Some (myself included) find the representation of women in that game to be rather appalling (particularly the first one. I have only just started playing the second).


As for the false equivalence, I like Shortpacked's take on it here (this one is about comic books).

[Allan Schumacher]

Why is that?

Because it's a setting where women literally throw themselves at Geralt (the player) in exchange for services (or for sometimes no reason at all).

The big one for me is the card collection, however, which plays into gamer tendencies to complete tasks given to them. By creating the card game for having sex with women, it explicitly makes every woman in the game a potential target, with the player wonder if there is a card for this woman, and what would it take to get this card. This is not a good thing because it then implicitly objectifies the women as being something to be accomplished - it was a goal to go and have sex with as many women as possible because the game will reward you with a type of content. Kudos to the women that find it silly (there is one on this board), but it actually made me feel uncomfortable because I didn't like the message the game was sending me and how my gamer mindset was originally perceiving it.

Even the second one jumps straight into the male gaze, with Triss being completely naked while Geralt is not.

And the false equivalence thing, how can someone differentiate between that and a 'power fantasy'? The comic implies that women have a standard opinion of what is considered attractive. The 'false equivalence' only exists on a personal level, if you don't agree with the comparison (which is fine). But then how can one claim to know what men like and women don't?

False equivalence doesn't exist on just a personal level. Yes there are personal preferences, but there is also the aggregate of all the people within a society and what they do and do not like. The men that are voted the most attractive (in the West) are typically not the muscle bound, square jawed type. Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sylvester Stallone were huge in the 80s but not really known for their sex appeal, while people like Tom Cruise and Patrick Swayze definitely were. Yes those two are still physically fit (there's an evolutionary biological motivation for this too), but there's still the trend.

Not everyone is going to find Scarlett Johansson attractive, but it doesn't mean she isn't typically considered one of the more attractive women. Robert Pattinson is very often one of the top (if not the top) attractive male celebrity.

Toss out some pictures of Justin Bieber or Robert Pattinson to a typical crowd of men and a typical crowd of women, and see if there's any measurable difference in how the rate the attractiveness.

That's not to say there isn't overlap, especially as very few human beings meet "ideals" that can be established in video games, but the musclebound Batman isn't being drawn like so to be appealing to women, while Wonder Woman definitely leverages the male gaze.

The issue, of course, is when this becomes so common place that people no longer even notice it.

[Allan Schumacher]

Are romances something that appeal that much to the typical roleplaying gamer anyway?

They were arguably the biggest success of Baldur's Gate 2. The reaction to it was far, far beyond what was anticipated.

In fact, the division of romanceable characters in that game is somewhat reflective of the perceived demographic of the target audience at the time.

[Allan Schumacher]

The point of me referencing the data was to demonstrate that Game's have traditionally been sold to both gender's at almost an equal amount

Sorry, which data was this again? I must have missed the link earlier.

In your second point, you state that a Female character with clevage
showing can only be there because of Male Lust, which implies that every
straight male gamer that see's a pair of video game boob's on a video
game cover uncontrollably lust's after that character and buy's the game
as a result. That's an absurd pre-sumption.

I bolded the fallacy you introduced.  No, it doesn't mean that every straight male gamer uncontrollably lusts (I doubt any "uncontrollably lusts."  It's just done because the typical straight male gamer tends to find it attractive.  It's probably not even the principal characteristic that motivates the guy to play the game.  But it doesn't hurt.

This is like the old Health classes I had where the teachers always had to explain that simply because you are not average, does not mean you aren't normal.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 18 décembre 2012 - 10:44 .

[Allan Schumacher]

FreshIstay wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I bolded the fallacy you introduced.  No, it doesn't mean that every straight male gamer uncontrollably lusts (I doubt any "uncontrollably lusts."  It's just done because the typical straight male gamer tends to find it attractive.  It's probably not even the principal characteristic that motivates the guy to play the game.  But it doesn't hurt.

This is like the old Health classes I had where the teachers always had to explain that simply because you are not average, does not mean you aren't normal.

You bolded my fallacy, however, I bolded my point, which you seem to understand.

The thing is, your point has been coming across as though it's irrelevant.  This is what I disagree with.

Take the character traits and make Lara Croft a "typical" hideously ugly person, and I do believe there's less innate appeal based on the imagery we see and how it influences our purchasing decisions.


No one is saying "Men buy the game with sexy women ONLY for that sexy woman."  What people are saying is that men (in general), will have their decisions influenced by the women.  So a good game is still a good game, but if there's a good game with a very homely female on the cover, and a good game with a very attractive female on the cover, I'd be large sums of money on which ones get purchased, even if there isn't a conscious acknowledgement of the process.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 18 décembre 2012 - 08:04 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

So would you have a problem with it if Geralt was a woman? You can essentially get 'rewarded' for sleeping with women in Dragon Age or Mass Effect too since they have achievements. Isn't that the same thing?

I'm not a fan of achievements for accomplishing sex, whether they be in a BioWare game or not.  Though, an achievement for completing a romance arc is NOT the same thing, since there's no requirement for a romance arc to be concluded with sex (or to even contain sex).  Sometimes BioWare games do this, but other times sex is the finishing point.  So yes, I think providing an achievement for that is not a good thing.  The problem with The Witcher is that all that matters is the sex.  It sends a different message, whereas I am not aware of any BioWare games that ding the achievement (or some other type of reward) simply for having sex.


I'd still have a problem with it if Geralt was a woman, though maybe less so simply because it'd be a less typical position.  I'm curious what the reception would have been like had Geralt been gay, with men throwing themselves at him and cards with men in attractive poses.  Heck, even if Geralt had been female with men on cards.

I could obviously see the difference if most women were scantily clad and men were always dressed, but that's not usually the case. Triss is fully clothed in The Witcher.

Triss is not dressed modestly in The Witcher at all.  In fact, (to the game's credit), the absurdly revealing nature of her clothing is actually called out by some characters (I believe Declan does).  She's significantly improved her outfit in the second game (thus far anyways).

[Allan Schumacher]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Am I the only one who absolutely adore SWTOR's cover art?



Definitely one of the better ones I've seen, even though it's yet another "good-looking good girl and deformed-looking bad guy" kind of MMO cover in the back there.

TOR's also matches the general idea that all the Star Wars movie posters also have.  I do like the box art.

[Allan Schumacher]

Then there were designers like Sheri Graner Ray and Lori Ann Cole, etc etc etc. There weren't so few female designers that it ever crossed my mind that gaming was an overtly male dominated industry in the 80s, even if it was. I didn't know many people who played games, so I didn't think being a "girl gamer" was weird. either.

Were you primarily a PC gamer?

I agree with most of what you say, and am curious if this push became more prevalent as gaming pushed into mainstream and (perhaps most importantly) graphical fidelity improved.

Having said that, in my experiences growing up, video gaming was typically a male dominated hobby.

I found this particularly relevant to this topic. (The cover of The Last of Us)

[Allan Schumacher]

PC. (Apart from a brief flirtation with ColecoVision, but you'd hardly accuse Q*Bert of being just for guys.)

Pitstop is totally inappropriate. And by inappropriate, I mean awesome (I loved that game).

I didn't really know many gamers, but the ones I did know, really, were 80% female, because I was a girl and had mostly female friends. Did you know more male gamers because your friends were male? (That's not an accusation, just an idea.)

I was more just recalling the breakdown of my classrooms in school (as well as my extended family), as opposed to my personal friendships. But its so long ago that it's not really accurate. Although I can confidently say that I definitely knew many gamers while growing up.


By the time junior high and high school came around, I played on basketball teams, and at the team get togethers it was always a group of guys that dominated the game system setup, while the women did not.

That's not to say that male dominated hobby=sexist hobby, just that there was nothing, to my mind, that was deliberately made to make it appeal more to men in the early 80s. It was just gaming.

This is true. I'd say there was probably a bias (culturally based, and I can't really say why or what) that predisposed males to being gamers moreso than females when I was growing up, but I don't think it was due to any overt sexist overtones, but rather just implicit gender roles that steered men towards computers.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 19 décembre 2012 - 03:11 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Reasons:
1.) Girls and guys both often seem to perceive that girl-gaming is intended to be nerd-sexy. That's not why I game, and "that's hot" isn't the response I've ever wanted when mentioning my favorite hobby.
2.) In a room full of guys who are gaming, a girl who speaks up and says "I'd like to play" is apt to feel awkward barging into the "boys' club" (eye-rolling ensues)
3.) Even when gaming online, I often choose not to reveal that I'm a woman and/or refuse to use a mic because
- my performance will be scrutinized in a way it wouldn't if I were a man
- I will be flirted with
- I will be coddled or treated as if I'm a beginner that needs extra protection
- (some) male gamers will be incredibly angry to be beaten by me because of my gender
- I have actually been kicked before. Just for speaking into a mic, which reveals that I'm female

That's fair, and to be clear my impressions of my youth come strictly from my own assumptions and interpretations. Just because I perceive it that way, doesn't mean that my perception matches actual reality.

I still think it's telling that you felt that way, and I'm curious if there are a significant number of women that resisted gaming because of the social perception and pressures that they shouldn't be. I do agree with the idea that there is nothing intrinsic about gaming that would lead to a gender divide. IMO it's all cultural.

[Allan Schumacher]

Pit stop! I totally girled that game up. I was too wussy to let my tires get red. I used to have girly 80s sleepovers with a bowl of popcorn and the Colecovision, no joke.

Pssh. I liked to risk it and see if I could make it just one more lap!

[Allan Schumacher]

Eh. I liked the Sierra Adventure games. My favourites were the Police Quest games, followed by Black Cauldron, but I'm glad those aren't the only types of games that were ever made.

It was a different time especially, where I feel game designers so their relationship with gamers as innately adversarial. That is, I am pretty sure that every time you died in Space Quest II, a game designer somewhere considered it a victory for himself.


Although unfortunately, the King's Quest ones never really appealed to me.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 19 décembre 2012 - 04:42 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Well...

[Allan Schumacher]

I'm sure there are plenty of burgeoning lady-gamers out there who are waiting to test their wings, and could use some kind of nudge that gives them *permission* to try gaming. I'm just not sure that cover art is the right way to do it.

The thing about cover art is that it's often reflective of the media campaign at large. If we end up putting a woman on the box, it also probably means we're featuring the female in other aspects of marketing as well. At least, that's the way I've usually seen it with BioWare's titles since at least Mass Effect.

[Allan Schumacher]

Cleaned up some of the offtopic discussion.

/mod

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 19 décembre 2012 - 05:51 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Just mothballing (I am no marketer and don't spend my time in marketing at all and don't know how the decisions are made), but I'm curious if players exhibit some sort of innate attachment to the character (or maybe identify with the character) when seeing it. Box art is as much to draw attention from the undecided gamer in the store as opposed to being appealing to those that will already buy the game. I think anyways.

???

[Allan Schumacher]

I know we reworked DAO's box art because we were getting very poor impressions with the first one. I actually really like DAO's with the white box (usually stands out on its own), with the sweet red blood dragon on it.

[Allan Schumacher]

I doubt any of the early box art concepts still exist, but they were based around this logo and colour style:

http://www.wallpowpe...age-origins.jpg

Prepare to have your mind blown further then. The blood that
trickles from the wings of the dragon on the cover of DA2 create
silhouettes of lots of characters. Took me well until after the game was
released until I noticed ^^

Yup.  I'm a big fan of the DA box arts.  Catchy yet nuanced.