680 réponses à ce sujet

[whykikyouwhy]

Darth Death wrote...

I guess the resources poured into being a woman protagonist isn't enough to satisfy the feminist gamer, I see.

In looking over the vast amount of topics and threads throughout the BSN, one could say that resources poured in any direction may not be "enough to satisfy" a host of gamers. Part of the virtue of the forums is to not only discuss what we all may enjoy about the games we play in common, but to talk about things we would each like to see and why.

Wanting to have advertisements and the game cover/package itself reflect something other than the standard and typical artwork and hero in order to better showcase the options in the game isn't unreasonable, imo. Players to want different things in their games. Requesting varied representation is part of that. 

DA allows players to choose their protagonist's gender and class. We're allowed a certain amount of freedom and options to accentuate our PC. I suppose it would be ideal for some to limit the PC to one gender, or class, or mold, therefore potentially freeing up resources for other things. But many players enjoy having those options and choices, and would simply like to see some fairness and equal time/attention devoted to the female PC as with the male.

[berelinde]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

A different study shows that only 28% of console gamers are female. Which, granted, excludes the PC platform, but consoles are one of the best yard sticks for more 'hardcore' gaming types. I doubt that the female PC DA players outnumber the male 10 to 1 to counter balance such a deficit. 

Ah, "hardcore gamers." You do realize that "hardcore gamer" is defined as "The kind of gamer who plays like 'I' do" and "casuals" refers to everone else, I hope. There is no industry standard "hardcore gamer," regardless of what people say. But I'm curious. What is your source for declaring that female PC gamers are an insignificant minority? I play on PC. I do not own a console. My sister plays on PC and does not own a console. Many of my friends play on PC only. Some own consoles, but they usually use them for FPS games, not RPG.

Maybe someday, BioWare will conduct  a survey to determine the demographics of their playerbase, but until then, we're stuck with the ESA report. 

It should be noted that the ESA report is based on the number of respondents who identified themselves as gamers. Many, if not most, people who play games exclusively on social media or mobile apps do not identify themselves as gamers.

Not that it matters. Marketing is intended to attract new players as much as to appeal to longtime fans. If a strapping dude on the cover did not entice gamers to try the game before, a strapping dude on the cover will probably not entice them to play in the future.

[AlexanderCousland]

Myrmedus wrote...

Why is it this forum seems to see the use of the word "mysogonist" and its various conjugative forms used all over the place as if it was as commonplace a word as "and" or "the"? Do you even know what the word means?

Have these forums become a nexus for uppity, over-sensitive individuals who to seem to WANT to take offence to anything and everything that they can?

d4eaming wrote...

Because casual misogyny is a problem? If you're male, then you're already socially guided to not see it.

I love how pointing out gender inequality makes us "uppity". That there is a big fat clue that 1) you have no idea what you are even talking about, and 2) you're already towing the party line that women wanting equality means women want to gain power over men.

Good job.

There is a  host of things that each gender is "socially guided" to not see about the other and i didnt read anything in his/her post remotely suggesting that he/she believe's women want power over men.  

[John Epler]

Darth Death wrote...

I guess the resources poured into being a woman protagonist isn't enough to satisfy the feminist gamer, I see.

I hardly think that a demographic that represents almost half of those who play games asking for a commensurate amount of resources to be spent on inclusivity towards them as a group qualifies as anything other than eminently reasonable.

I should also mention that saying 'girls don't play X type of game, so why spend any resources on them?' is a great exercise in circular logic. Because certain types of games are not inclusive of the female demographic, they don't tend to play them in as great of numbers. So we use that to say 'well they're not playing them, so why spend any resources?', without acknowledging that if said games -were- more inclusive, they might see a far more even division along gender lines of people who enjoy those games.

I, personally, would rather be inclusive rather than exclusive, and I'm glad I work with a lot of people who feel the same way. You're certainly free to disagree, but it's something we're pretty keen on.

[David Gaider]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
Wanting to have advertisements and the game cover/package itself reflect something other than the standard and typical artwork and hero in order to better showcase the options in the game isn't unreasonable, imo.

Not unreasonable. The problematic part, as I understand it, comes in when people who are already knowledgeable about the game, and already willing to buy into it, say what they'd like to see on the box art. And that's problematic because, while they'd clearly like to see the box art made to appeal to them that's not who box art is intended for. It's made to attract buyers who don't know anything about the game, not make people who already bought the game (or plan to) feel better about it.

This is not to say that having a female PC depicted on the box or, in fact, that anything other than the "action hero guy" would be unacceptable... just that getting direction from hardcore fans is maybe not what Marketing is really interested in. Maybe they should be, I don't know. Either way, if you're asking "why isn't the box art made with me in mind?" then there's the likely answer.

[Blue Gloves]

John Epler wrote...

I, personally, would rather be inclusive rather than exclusive, and I'm glad I work with a lot of people who feel the same way. You're certainly free to disagree, but it's something we're pretty keen on.

This is why Bioware has earned my undying love and devotion... well that and, you know, the great gameplay.

[Dani Douglas]

Pedrak wrote...

I have no doubt the DA series appeals more to female players than the Witcher, if nothing else because it allows for a female PC.


This said, I'd hardly call Dragon Age "female oriented". Characters like Morrigan or Isabela are, at least in terms of appearance, pretty blatant fanservice for males. And most male players seem to enjoy romances just as much as women.

I agree with you there and
in origins we woman had Alistair and Zev.  And personally for me the only appeal in DA2 was Seb and that's mainly because I couldn't have him in the bedroom lol and his reactions to picking locks and stuff, perfect!  Also
he didn't really remind me of anyone from origins.  Honestly I think for DA2 they tried to make copies of DAO companions.


Morrigan = Isabela

Alistair = Anders

and so forth.  Not matched up like that per say but you get my drift.

and as for the cover, if they showed maybe both female and male it would be pretty cool but I don't really care who is on the cover so long as the game itself is amazing!

Modifié par Dani Douglas, 18 décembre 2012 - 12:03 .

[Face of Evil]

David Gaider wrote...

Either way, if you're asking "why isn't the box art made with me in mind?" then there's the likely answer.

Whenever I look at the box art, all I see are skeletons. 

Modifié par Face of Evil, 18 décembre 2012 - 12:08 .

[FaWa]

Morrigan = Isabela

Alistair = Anders

lol. Am I reading this right now? 

[AlexanderCousland]

John Epler wrote...

I hardly think that a demographic that represents almost half of those who play games asking for a commensurate amount of resources to be spent on inclusivity towards them as a group qualifies as anything other than eminently reasonable.

I should also mention that saying 'girls don't play X type of game, so why spend any resources on them?' is a great exercise in circular logic. Because certain types of games are not inclusive of the female demographic, they don't tend to play them in as great of numbers. So we use that to say 'well they're not playing them, so why spend any resources?', without acknowledging that if said games -were- more inclusive, they might see a far more even division along gender lines of people who enjoy those games.

I, personally, would rather be inclusive rather than exclusive, and I'm glad I work with a lot of people who feel the same way. You're certainly free to disagree, but it's something we're pretty keen on.

I just feel that if Male's are the majority on most game developing teams then the only way progess in that area is to have more Female's develop games. even so, there might still be an issue with representation. Most of your particular team is female, I think throughout the course of the game maybe the OP began to pick up on that, I cant say I disagree with the OP on that point, but I didnt have a problem or issue with it because I like the game even so.

[Wulfram]

I think Collector's Edition box art should be directed at hardcore fans.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Blue Gloves wrote...


...

The idea that the game is marketed for, or designed with women in mind is pretty silly. The game was designed with gamers in mind, but because there are a nearly equal number of options and features for female gamers as for males, many individuals who have been raised with a certain viewpoint automatically assumes that the game must be made for women.  Personally, that viewpoint doesn't make me angry- just sad.   Most of us live in a society that tells us that men and women are equal but presents us with endless examples of how this is not so.  The OP's (and many others') confusion as to why their comments were offensive is just further evidence of that.

...

Several people have made mention of this, including the OP. What exactly are male and female game features?

As for other topics, as a male, I found the ending of the DA2 demo to be insulting to my intelligence. Isabelas 'recruitment' conversation was twisted to make it sound like she was asking the PC to go to the inn for 'company' rather than just to go recruit her into the party. I found it to be blatant pandering.

[hoorayforicecream]

Wulfram wrote...

I think Collector's Edition box art should be directed at hardcore fans.

They usually are.

[bleetman]

Dani Douglas wrote...

Honestly I think for DA2 they tried to make copies of DAO companions.


Morrigan = Isabela

Alistair = Anders

and so forth.  Not matched up like that per say but you get my drift.

If by "copies", you mean "entirely different people who are nothing like each other", yes.

It's entirely possible I'm missing your point.

Modifié par bleetman, 18 décembre 2012 - 12:23 .

[berelinde]

bleetman wrote...

Dani Douglas wrote...

Honestly I think for DA2 they tried to make copies of DAO companions.


Morrigan = Isabela

Alistair = Anders

and so forth.  Not matched up like that per say but you get my drift.

If by "copies", you mean "entirely different people who are nothing like each other", yes.

It's entirely possible I'm missing your point.

Morrigan and Isabela are both dark-haired women. Anders and Alistair are both blond men. You just need to think "big picture."

[Blue Gloves]

Shinian2 wrote...


Several people have made mention of this, including the OP. What exactly are male and female game features?

To simplify issues, I've gone ahead and catergorized things like male heterosexual LI's, characters (like Leliana) who have professed unashamedly their homosexual relationships, the ability to create a female avatar, and in game, NPC dialogue that differs for female PC as "female" game features.  I realize that these things were not created solely for the use of women, and that they are enjoyed by both sexes, but I've gone on the assumption that things of this ilk are what OP and other, subsequent posters are referring to as "features that target females."

[Maria Caliban]

FreshIstay wrote...

Most of your particular team is female...

Most of the writing team is female.

That's not cinematics, art, gameplay, or QA. And I'm willing to bet that the director level peeps are male. Likewise, we know that Mark Darrah and Mike Laidlaw are dudes.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 18 décembre 2012 - 12:47 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Maria Caliban wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Most of your particular team is female...

Most of the writing team is female.

That's not cinematics, art, gameplay, or QA. And I'm willing to bet that the department heads are overwhelmingly male. Likewise, we know that Mark Darrah and Mike Laidlaw are dudes.

That's why I said PARTICULAR TEAM  when I was talking to John Epler, a writer.

[Dhiro]

FreshIstay wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Most of your particular team is female...

Most of the writing team is female.

That's not cinematics, art, gameplay, or QA. And I'm willing to bet that the department heads are overwhelmingly male. Likewise, we know that Mark Darrah and Mike Laidlaw are dudes.

That's why I said PARTICULAR TEAM  when I was talking to John Epler, a writer.

Epler is amazing and roguishily handsome. But he's not a writer.

[Blue Gloves]

I believe Mr Epler is a cinematic designer... as it clearly says in his sig line

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Blue Gloves wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...


Several people have made mention of this, including the OP. What exactly are male and female game features?

To simplify issues, I've gone ahead and catergorized things like male heterosexual LI's,

I'm not nitpicking you, as I realize you aren't championing these as 'female features', just sharing my thoughts.

Male heterosexual LI's exist but so do female ones, so this is a weak example for the OP to use.

characters (like Leliana) who have professed unashamedly their homosexual relationships,

As does Zevran. Not sure why either of these should be 'for females'.

the ability to create a female avatar, and in game, NPC dialogue that differs for female PC as "female" game features.

Yes those are, but again balanced out with equal male features.

  I realize that these things were not created solely for the use of women, and that they are enjoyed by both sexes, but I've gone on the assumption that things of this ilk are what OP and other, subsequent posters are referring to as "features that target females."

Yeah I'm still confused, as you are probably, as to why these would make DA 'for females'

I was thinking more along the line of romances are in the game to 'appeal to women'. Again, silly since men enjoy these too.


EDIT In other news, I seem to be the only one bothered by the demo.

Modifié par Shinian2, 18 décembre 2012 - 12:54 .

[Maria Caliban]

FreshIstay wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Most of your particular team is female...

Most of the writing team is female.

That's not cinematics, art, gameplay, or QA. And I'm willing to bet that the department heads are overwhelmingly male. Likewise, we know that Mark Darrah and Mike Laidlaw are dudes.

That's why I said PARTICULAR TEAM  when I was talking to John Epler, a writer.

John is not a writer.

[legbamel]

Dani Douglas wrote...
Morrigan = Isabela

Alistair = Anders

and so forth.  Not matched up like that per say but you get my drift.

One presumes that you mean "complete opposites", which I suppose works when you contrast Fenris with Zevran and Merrill with Leliana, as well.

[Blue Gloves]

Shinian2 wrote...



Yeah I'm still confused, as you are probably, as to why these would make DA 'for females'

I was thinking more along the line of romances are in the game to 'appeal to women'. Again, silly since men enjoy these too.

Indeed.  I was actually slightly surprised by the amount of posters who agreed w/ the OP about the game "being written for females".  It is true that my ex girlfriend introduced me to the game, but my husband has enjoyed it every bit as much as we have, and I doubt he has ever imagined that it was never intended to be marketed to men.

[AlexanderCousland]

Blue Gloves wrote...

To simplify issues, I've gone ahead and catergorized things like male heterosexual LI's, characters (like Leliana) who have professed unashamedly their homosexual relationships, the ability to create a female avatar, and in game, NPC dialogue that differs for female PC as "female" game features.  I realize that these things were not created solely for the use of women, and that they are enjoyed by both sexes, but I've gone on the assumption that things of this ilk are what OP and other, subsequent posters are referring to as "features that target females."

Or maybe it's the fact the  Female's companion's in the series have story arc's that are better developed then their Male counterparts, or that most character's with "power" or "status" that we've seen or heard about are Female's. I think it has very little to do with dialouge.