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[Fisto The Sexbot]

d4eaming wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Why is it this forum seems to see the use of the word "mysogonist" and its various conjugative forms used all over the place as if it was as commonplace a word as "and" or "the"? Do you even know what the word means?

Have these forums become a nexus for uppity, over-sensitive individuals who to seem to WANT to take offence to anything and everything that they can?

Because casual misogyny is a problem? If you're male, then you're already socially guided to not see it.

I love how pointing out gender inequality makes us "uppity". That there is a big fat clue that 1) you have no idea what you are even talking about, and 2) you're already towing the party line that women wanting equality means women want to gain power over men.

Good job.

Personally, I don't think 'women want to gain power over men' (lol) -- I just don't want to hear it. I come here to discuss games, not gender discrimination.  Unless you've lead a very issue-free life, gender discrimination in video game advertising usually (unless it's something blatantly sexist) shouldn't be 'a thing' to keep track of.

Wanting equality is all well and fine, but well... sometimes you have to earn it. Men have to earn it all the time too. For example, hiring more female game developers should be based on merit, not meeting a status quo or gender bias, in my opinion.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

Gazardiel wrote...

I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around the "console gamers are more hardcore" idea, but I'm probably stuck in thinking about the earlier generation (PS2, XBox, Gamecube trifecta). Playstation (1&2) was a haven for JRPGs, which I have loved, but I tend to see those denigrated by a lot of players ("ewww, ANIME with its pretty guys and flashy moves!"). Nintendo Gamecube was specifically marketed for younger players with more cartoony and light games. And I remember writing off XBox because such a large portion of their games were sports games, which don't strike me as hardcore gaming, but as games meant to appeal to sports fans. Oh yeah, Halo and other FPS are on console too, but if that's your benchmark for "hardcore" then we're all pansies here for actually looking at storylines and character development - once you're comparing genres, it gets really hard to compare. There seem to be more "hardcore" games available on consoles today, but there are also a LOT of casual/episodic games too. I suspect that this is another "we're cooler than you" thing.

I have a gaming PC as well as my PS2 (I refuse to get a PS3 because I've seen them spend more time updating than being played - not very conducive for hardcore gaming, IMO), and I still feel that PC lets me play more refined games with more detailed controls (hooray for 10+ hotkeys). I suspect that the greater customizability (including of mods) that PC offers makes that platform more appealing to female gamers, who seem to produce a lot more of the creative content around DA (some stunning cut scenes on YouTube!).

Oh, and when I see sites like this, it really makes me wonder whether "hardcore" just means "hostile and immature": http://www.fatuglyorslutty.com/ (a site that documents sexual harassment in online gaming, with most cases coming from consoles)

lol console gamers are the peasants of the industry, forsooth.

[Allan Schumacher]

Why is The Witcher series a 'dubious benchmark'?

Some (myself included) find the representation of women in that game to be rather appalling (particularly the first one. I have only just started playing the second).


As for the false equivalence, I like Shortpacked's take on it here (this one is about comic books).

[Gazardiel]

Plaintiff wrote...

Putting aside the fact that you're making a lot of sweeping assumptions about what women find attractive, when their tastes are as varied as any man's, there's nothing "sexualised" about the male protagonists at all. Having a big package (the prominence of which I think you're grossly exaggerating) doesn't automatically make the image a sexual one.

I noticed you completely ignored the issue of posing, which is a major factor in sexualisation. Shepard is not posed suggestively, his expression is not flirtatious. There is a world of difference between this:



and mister "my body is ready" over here:

But...but... he's totally being gay... or animelike... or something.  How dare he pose in such a heteronormatively assaulting way??? (Great example!)

Personally, I don't think 'women want to gain power over men' (lol) -- I
just don't want to hear it. I come here to discuss games, not gender
discrimination.  Unless you've lead a very issue-free life, gender
discrimination in video game advertising usually (unless it's something
blatantly sexist) shouldn't be 'a thing' to keep track of.

Wanting
equality is all well and fine, but well... sometimes you have to earn
it. Men have to earn it all the time too. For example, hiring more
female game developers should be based on merit, not meeting a status
quo or gender bias, in my opinion.

It would be awesome if people were just hired on their merits and not on silly things like perceived personality, unwarranted predictions about natural inclinations, or whether someone goes to hang "with the boys" after work.  Unfortunately, there are many studies that show that there is male preference across industries in hiring, wages offered, and networking (especially when networking happens at male-only or female-unfriendly establishments). 

I also don't see how voting with their money and actively discussing and sending feedback about games like DA and DA2 doesn't constitute "earning" a right to be considered seriously as human beings and as gamers... And I'll be that among these gamers are future game devs.  If you came here to only discuss games-minus-any-social-considerations, then why are you on a board that clearly is talking about gender issues (with a porntastic user handle - seems you like talking about sex... that you like)? 
You already have the privilege to stick your fingers in your ears and
ignore it when half the population encounters hostility and
discrimination, and while it's nice that you get tired of hearing about
this, a lot of people have to live it, whether they want to or not.

Modifié par Gazardiel, 18 décembre 2012 - 09:54 .

[Plaintiff]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
Not trying to be sexist just curious but for some reason the whole Dragon Age series seems like it is written to appeal more to the female audience, anyone else get this impression? Not having a go at anyone I just find it 'unique', to be fair it would seem most games these days are writen to appeal more to males, I mean we got the far superior Witcher series so I guess it is about time women got a series of games made to appeal more to them, all the more power to ya girlfriend.

I'm uncertain what we do for female fans that we don't also regularly do for male fans. I suppose if the Witcher series is the benchmark you're using, the difference might make it seem unbalanced, but that's a rather dubious measuring stick if you ask me.

Why is The Witcher series a 'dubious benchmark'?

Quite a few female posters on this forum will tell you they find The Witcher games sexist and offensive.

You might argue that it is not, but there's no denying that it's extremely male-oriented. If your benchmark for "masculine" games is The Witcher, and simply lacking the same level of violence and copious female nudity means the game is "for chicks", then there's a heck of a lot of games for chicks, and very few for men.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 18 décembre 2012 - 09:49 .

[Kidd]

FreshIstay wrote...

Oh! you mean the Men that alway's show up on Box Cover's with huge Muscles, hammer jaw's, white skin dressed in spandex tight clothing with a bulge that poke's your eye's out, possibly with a gun or a sword.? 

Yea, most of us dont look like that, but Women find that sexy, are Men being oversexualized as well?  

Not the same thing. Those men are always depicted as active participants in what they do. The main point is to drive home that they're powerful characters who get stuff done. If a straight woman happens to find them good looking that's just a nice bonus, but it is nowhere near the primary point of their designs and poses.

When a woman is fit in tight spandex, she's usually primarily posed and designed to look good from the perspective of a straight man. The main point doesn't tend to be about making sure she looks empowered, rather to point out how nice it would be for a man to tap dat.

Relatively, this is picture that portrays spandex-clad women far better than most do. Yet I truly wonder why her back must be poised in a completely impossible way to better accentuate her breasts and buttocks while she's taking down these mooks?



You may also wish to look at some real life shots of just how silly it looks when a man tries to pose like ladies tend to do in our media. You'll find that what you're conditioned to find as "normal" in depictions of women is actually... pretty darn weird. (I would have thought The Shape of Desire cover was fine if I hadn't seen him striking the pose, for instance)

Bottomline, two characters in spandex with "perfect bodies" do not necessarily give out the same signals to the reader. Usually the character's gender will be the factor that decides how they will be portrayed, though it is thankfully not true 100% of the time.

brushyourteeth wrote...

Also, related to the topic but not this particular quote, I'd like to just say that I really couldn't care less what's on the cover art. Male protag, female protag, signature blood dragon, a nug in a wig -- I'm going to buy the game regardless.   

Nug in a wig would be an amazing addition for the other side of the cover [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

[SpunkyMonkey]

berelinde wrote...

It doesn't have to be an either/or scenario. An iconic female does not have to be unattractive, nor is there anything wrong with being sexy. Male and female gamers alike might enjoy promotional material featuring a beautiful, powerful female protagonist.

As a female gamer, I've never had a problem with female characters being portrayed as sexy or even seductive. The only time I've had a problem with it is where women are objectified or a particular character was portrayed as being sexier than the protagonist had the potential to be. I adore Isabela, for example, but the reason I love her is because she empowers the women around her while preserving their dignity. She challenges Aveline, allowing the latter to assert her femininity in ways that work with her personality and lifestyle, but she encourages Merrill more gently, simply being her friend and helping her understand that being different isn't so bad.

I can guarentee that we will never Susan Boyle type as the main lead though. lol.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Why is The Witcher series a 'dubious benchmark'?

Some (myself included) find the representation of women in that game to be rather appalling (particularly the first one. I have only just started playing the second).


As for the false equivalence, I like Shortpacked's take on it here (this one is about comic books).

Why is that?

And the false equivalence thing, how can someone differentiate between that and a 'power fantasy'? The comic implies that women have a standard opinion of what is considered attractive. The 'false equivalence' only exists on a personal level, if you don't agree with the comparison (which is fine). But then how can one claim to know what men like and women don't?

[Kidd]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

And the false equivalence thing, how can someone differentiate between that and a 'power fantasy'? The comic implies that women have a standard opinion of what is considered attractive. The 'false equivalence' only exists on a personal level, if you don't agree with the comparison (which is fine). But then how can one claim to know what men like and women don't?

If you're bringing in the "but it's all subjective in the end" argument (which has its merits to be sure when looking at individual people instead of trends), then I suppose you would not object if almost every woman in media were to be depicted with shaven heads, no makeup, huge biceps, strong jawlines and standing in power poses as of this moment? If there truly were no general outlines for what active power and agency or passive beauty and dependancy looked like, this wouldn't change anything.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

Plaintiff wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
Not trying to be sexist just curious but for some reason the whole Dragon Age series seems like it is written to appeal more to the female audience, anyone else get this impression? Not having a go at anyone I just find it 'unique', to be fair it would seem most games these days are writen to appeal more to males, I mean we got the far superior Witcher series so I guess it is about time women got a series of games made to appeal more to them, all the more power to ya girlfriend.

I'm uncertain what we do for female fans that we don't also regularly do for male fans. I suppose if the Witcher series is the benchmark you're using, the difference might make it seem unbalanced, but that's a rather dubious measuring stick if you ask me.

Why is The Witcher series a 'dubious benchmark'?

Quite a few female posters on this forum will tell you they find The Witcher games sexist and offensive.

You might argue that it is not, but there's no denying that it's extremely male-oriented. If your benchmark for "masculine" games is The Witcher, and simply lacking the same level of violence and copious female nudity means the game is "for chicks", then there's a heck of a lot of games for chicks, and very few for men.

Quite a few probably enjoy the game. But if some people are finding The Witcher 2 offensive I think we can agree why some of those same people might figure that BioWare is making more 'female-friendly' games. That Gaider thinks this could not be the issue because all the features of his games are available for a male audience too is ironic, because the same can be said for The Witcher series.

Are romances something that appeal that much to the typical roleplaying gamer anyway?

[AlexanderCousland]

FreshIstay wrote...

Acorrding to the stats posted on this forum  those same cover's have tradiotnally appealed to 47% of female gamer's as well. So, I dont know If your suggesting that  those Female's have a "male power" fantasy. and Im sure game cover's  with Females with clevage showing arent created to appeal to male lust either, but i wont deny that men will find females those character's atttractive, naturally . On the Flipside, I'd have an easier time beliving that females dont find the Muscular Male character's attractive if there weren't examples posted righ here on BSN.  It goes both ways. 

Daissran wrote...
Firstly, that data refers to women playing games, not how appealing they find the front cover. Also, they do not/cannot have a 'male power fantasy'... because they're not, uh, men.

The covers featuring women cleavaged-up and sexualised are indeed intended to appeal to straight male lust. Obviously. A male power fantasy is what a man wants to be, traditionally the hero. A male sex fantasy is what he wants to have and ogle...

While I won't deny that a few women may find those hero types attractive, they are definitely not made to appeal to women – they are made to appeal to the, once again, male power fantasy.

Also, do you know the meaning of false equivalence?

The point of me referencing  the data was to demonstrate that Game's have traditionally been sold to both gender's at almost an equal amount, which means the cover's had to appeal to both gender's.  So if your arguing for a Female Power fantasy, Im not against you, it would be quite enlightening seeing what product would come from a team of predominatly Female developer's. (im sure that statement will be ignored)

In your second point, you state that a Female character with clevage showing can only be there because of Male Lust, which implies that every straight male gamer that see's a pair of video game boob's on a video game cover uncontrollably lust's after that character and buy's the game as a result. That's an absurd pre-sumption.

I'd also like to remind you that because Male's are traditonally protrayed as Hero's does not mean that every male want's to be a Hero, Just like every female does not want to be a Princess. Also, everytime sex is shown does not mean it's a Male Fantasy.  

I was alway's under the impression that video games were all about level-up's and slaying giant bosses in epic battle's, not being Male or Female while doing it.

[Allan Schumacher]

Why is that?

Because it's a setting where women literally throw themselves at Geralt (the player) in exchange for services (or for sometimes no reason at all).

The big one for me is the card collection, however, which plays into gamer tendencies to complete tasks given to them. By creating the card game for having sex with women, it explicitly makes every woman in the game a potential target, with the player wonder if there is a card for this woman, and what would it take to get this card. This is not a good thing because it then implicitly objectifies the women as being something to be accomplished - it was a goal to go and have sex with as many women as possible because the game will reward you with a type of content. Kudos to the women that find it silly (there is one on this board), but it actually made me feel uncomfortable because I didn't like the message the game was sending me and how my gamer mindset was originally perceiving it.

Even the second one jumps straight into the male gaze, with Triss being completely naked while Geralt is not.

And the false equivalence thing, how can someone differentiate between that and a 'power fantasy'? The comic implies that women have a standard opinion of what is considered attractive. The 'false equivalence' only exists on a personal level, if you don't agree with the comparison (which is fine). But then how can one claim to know what men like and women don't?

False equivalence doesn't exist on just a personal level. Yes there are personal preferences, but there is also the aggregate of all the people within a society and what they do and do not like. The men that are voted the most attractive (in the West) are typically not the muscle bound, square jawed type. Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sylvester Stallone were huge in the 80s but not really known for their sex appeal, while people like Tom Cruise and Patrick Swayze definitely were. Yes those two are still physically fit (there's an evolutionary biological motivation for this too), but there's still the trend.

Not everyone is going to find Scarlett Johansson attractive, but it doesn't mean she isn't typically considered one of the more attractive women. Robert Pattinson is very often one of the top (if not the top) attractive male celebrity.

Toss out some pictures of Justin Bieber or Robert Pattinson to a typical crowd of men and a typical crowd of women, and see if there's any measurable difference in how the rate the attractiveness.

That's not to say there isn't overlap, especially as very few human beings meet "ideals" that can be established in video games, but the musclebound Batman isn't being drawn like so to be appealing to women, while Wonder Woman definitely leverages the male gaze.

The issue, of course, is when this becomes so common place that people no longer even notice it.

[Allan Schumacher]

Are romances something that appeal that much to the typical roleplaying gamer anyway?

They were arguably the biggest success of Baldur's Gate 2. The reaction to it was far, far beyond what was anticipated.

In fact, the division of romanceable characters in that game is somewhat reflective of the perceived demographic of the target audience at the time.

[Allan Schumacher]

The point of me referencing the data was to demonstrate that Game's have traditionally been sold to both gender's at almost an equal amount

Sorry, which data was this again? I must have missed the link earlier.

In your second point, you state that a Female character with clevage
showing can only be there because of Male Lust, which implies that every
straight male gamer that see's a pair of video game boob's on a video
game cover uncontrollably lust's after that character and buy's the game
as a result. That's an absurd pre-sumption.

I bolded the fallacy you introduced.  No, it doesn't mean that every straight male gamer uncontrollably lusts (I doubt any "uncontrollably lusts."  It's just done because the typical straight male gamer tends to find it attractive.  It's probably not even the principal characteristic that motivates the guy to play the game.  But it doesn't hurt.

This is like the old Health classes I had where the teachers always had to explain that simply because you are not average, does not mean you aren't normal.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 18 décembre 2012 - 10:44 .

[Fisto The Sexbot]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

And the false equivalence thing, how can someone differentiate between that and a 'power fantasy'? The comic implies that women have a standard opinion of what is considered attractive. The 'false equivalence' only exists on a personal level, if you don't agree with the comparison (which is fine). But then how can one claim to know what men like and women don't?

If you're bringing in the "but it's all subjective in the end" argument (which has its merits to be sure when looking at individual people instead of trends), then I suppose you would not object if almost every woman in media were to be depicted with shaven heads, no makeup, huge biceps, strong jawlines and standing in power poses as of this moment? If there truly were no general outlines for what active power and agency or passive beauty and dependancy looked like, this wouldn't change anything.

You're saying that muscular men are about as equally attractive to women as women with shaved heads are to men? I'm not sure I get the gist.

My point was an idealized version of a person is not intrinsically different from a model considered generally attractive because those idealized versions that people create of themselves are generally designed to meet the preferences of society. They are not created in a vacuum. "Male power fantasies" cannot only appeal to men, and that's why.

So some women may not find muscular men attractive I guess, but there are plenty that do. It's quite the opposite of 'it's all subjective', in fact.

[AlexanderCousland]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Not the same thing. Those men are always depicted as active participants in what they do. The main point is to drive home that they're powerful characters who get stuff done. If a straight woman happens to find them good looking that's just a nice bonus, but it is nowhere near the primary point of their designs and poses.

So, In the confine's of the dragon age series I can make the arguement that there Is only ONE empowered Male character who had the ability to make stuff happen. The rest of them are Female. In term's of Western Media i can point out plenty of example's of strong empowered women. I'd also like to remind you that when a straight male happens to find a women good looking on a cover It's just a nice bonus to us as well.

When a woman is fit in tight spandex, she's usually primarily posed and designed to look good from the perspective of a straight man. The main point doesn't tend to be about making sure she looks empowered, rather to point out how nice it would be for a man to tap dat.

Relatively, this is picture that portrays spandex-clad women far better than most do. Yet I truly wonder why her back must be poised in a completely impossible way to better accentuate her breasts and buttocks while she's taking down these mooks?

So.... If she wasnt poised in that postion male's would find her less attractive? I doubt it. and you certainly have a very acurate physco-analysis as to why she's poised in the postion that she Is in, Alot of women i know post pictures in the same position's with the same amount of clothing on Facebook. But  I've never seen that on a video game cover.

You may also wish to look at some real life shots of just how silly it looks when a man tries to pose like ladies tend to do in our media. You'll find that what you're conditioned to find as "normal" in depictions of women is actually... pretty darn weird. (I would have thought The Shape of Desire cover was fine if I hadn't seen him striking the pose, for instance)

It is weird for Men to pose like Women do, but it's not weird for a Woman to pose like a Man in our Society, perhap's you have an opinion on why that is? 

What's with this conditioned word? You seem to imply that male's cannot determine for themselve's what they find attractive, I think we are pretty good at that.  Im not going to tell you that your "conditioned" for finding Male's that are portrayed in Media attractive.

Bottomline, two characters in spandex with "perfect bodies" do not necessarily give out the same signals to the reader. Usually the character's gender will be the factor that decides how they will be portrayed, though it is thankfully not true 100% of the time.

Male's are not Female's and Female's are not Male's. We tend to give off different signal's to one another, we are not the same and never will be because our Gender's demand it.  That does not mean Female's are the only gender that is subject to Objectification.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 18 décembre 2012 - 11:44 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I bolded the fallacy you introduced.  No, it doesn't mean that every straight male gamer uncontrollably lusts (I doubt any "uncontrollably lusts."  It's just done because the typical straight male gamer tends to find it attractive.  It's probably not even the principal characteristic that motivates the guy to play the game.  But it doesn't hurt.

This is like the old Health classes I had where the teachers always had to explain that simply because you are not average, does not mean you aren't normal.

You bolded my fallacy, however, I bolded my point, which you seem to understand.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Why is that?

Because it's a setting where women literally throw themselves at Geralt (the player) in exchange for services (or for sometimes no reason at all).

So would you have a problem with it if Geralt was a woman? You can essentially get 'rewarded' for sleeping with women in Dragon Age or Mass Effect too since they have achievements. Isn't that the same thing?

And okay, some people do find the likes of Justin Bieber and Robert Pattinson attractive. But what about Hugh Jackman or some football star like Ronaldo? Most male protagonists don't really look like The Hulk either. I was thinking more, Nathan Drake, instead of relics from the 80's or the guys from Gears of War. "False equivalence" in that case implied that women do not usually find X or Y muscular character on a comic book attractive, which (imo) is as opinionated as it gets.

I could obviously see the difference if most women were scantily clad and men were always dressed, but that's not usually the case. Triss is fully clothed in The Witcher.

Modifié par Fisto The Sexbot, 18 décembre 2012 - 11:33 .

[Dominus]

So would you have a problem with it if Geralt was a woman?

Objectifying a human being, as a male or female, is still problematic.

You can essentially get 'rewarded' for sleeping with women in Dragon Age or Mass Effect too since they have achievements. Isn't that the same thing?

Although it's often confused in real life as well, romance and sex are not the same.

Triss is fully clothed in The Witcher.

Try visiting her(or shani) at night.

[Plaintiff]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

Quite a few probably enjoy the game. But if some people are finding The Witcher 2 offensive I think we can agree why some of those same people might figure that BioWare is making more 'female-friendly' games. That Gaider thinks this could not be the issue because all the features of his games are available for a male audience too is ironic, because the same can be said for The Witcher series.

Are romances something that appeal that much to the typical roleplaying gamer anyway?

Well Dragon Age may be more female-friendly than The Witcher, but from what I hear that's not a high bar to clear. Bioware is certainly not perfect in its depiction of gender issues. I have some problems with the way the Asari in Mass Effect are presented, for instance.

I don't presume to speak for the "typical roleplaying gamer". I can tell you that the romance content appeals greatly to me, personally. As a homosexual male, I appreciate any occasion where I feel like my sexuality has been fairly represented, and I especially appreciate the fact that Dragon Age allows me to express my sexuality in a game. Could that have been done without romance content? Possibly, but it's harder to discuss an issue like alternate sexuality outside of a romantic context. Sexuality and romance are pretty difficult to extricate from each other.

[Wulfram]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

I could obviously see the difference if most women were scantily clad and men were always dressed, but that's not usually the case. Triss is fully clothed in The Witcher.

um...


But maybe you mean the sequel

[AlexanderCousland]

DominusVita wrote..

Try visiting her(or shani) at night.

And this is where it officially become's subjective

[NaughtyBits]

I think the Dragon Age is both aimed towards men equally as it is to women. There is no gender favorites when it comes to Dragon Age. But that's just my opinion:wub: 

[AlexanderCousland]

EDIT: ummm...nevermind.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 18 décembre 2012 - 12:02 .