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[Battlebloodmage]

The Hierophant wrote...

Lotion of all the comic artists available i can't believe you used Rob Liefeld as the example for superhero anatomy. It's like using Uwe Boll as an example for directing over Kubrick, Spielberg, Scorcese, hitchcock, or heck even the average budding amateur director.

I get your meaning, but Liefeld c'mon? I am disappoint.

I was just gonna say it, Greg Land and Rob Liefield are some of the worst comic book artists with bad work ethnic. People should never use them to represent actual hardworking artists out there for anything.

[Maria Caliban]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And please - using superhero comics as an example is just strange for one other reason:


Superhero comics throw the anatomy of BOTH sexes in the garbage bin and make science cry tears of blood.

No one faps to busty Captain America. He is obviously not sexualized.

[Slappy Ya Face]

Am I the only one around here who liked the Witcher too?

[hoorayforicecream]

AlanC9 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
The first shows a space opera, but doesn't tell you much about how the game is played, or what it is the player will be doing. It actually looks a lot like the Star Wars Episode 1 movie poster, and tells about the plot of the game, but it doesn't tell much about the gameplay itself, and that's the problem with it. 

I thought that they were trying to copy the KotOR box, actually -- though of course the KotOR box art was a derivative of that poster. And the KotOR box did get a lightsaber onto the cover, but of course KotOR didn't really need to communicate that on the box.

Not everything can be communicated via such art. How would you get across the difference between. Jedi Knight gameplay and KotOR gameplay?

You don't need to do that. You only need to show them the one-sentence core of what the game is about. KOTOR is about being a jedi in the star wars universe. You have guns and you have light sabers, and you have bad guys to shoot and stab. That's all there is to it. You don't need to go into specific features or comparisons at all; that's what the screenshots and feature lists on the back of the box are for.

[The Hierophant]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Lotion of all the comic artists available i can't believe you used Rob Liefeld as the example for superhero anatomy. It's like using Uwe Boll as an example for directing over Kubrick, Spielberg, Scorcese, hitchcock, or heck even the average budding amateur director.

I get your meaning, but Liefeld c'mon? I am disappoint.

I was just gonna say it, Greg Land and Rob Liefield are some of the worst comic book artists with bad work ethnic. People should never use them to represent actual hardworking artists out there for anything.

I did laugh when i saw Liefeld's cover art of Cap was posted.

[thats1evildude]

The Hierophant wrote...

Lotion of all the comic artists available i can't believe you used Rob Liefeld as the example for superhero anatomy. It's like using Uwe Boll as an example for directing over Kubrick, Spielberg, Scorcese, hitchcock, or heck even the average budding amateur director.

I get your meaning, but Liefeld c'mon? I am disappoint.

It's like using Mein Kampf as a indictment of literature.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 18 décembre 2012 - 06:38 .

[esper]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

esper wrote...
No, but I am arguing that we point out that it is unrealistic so that people notice it. People know that flying flying unicorn are not real, we get that belief crushed around the time as the belief in Santa Claus (relatively speaking), but the posing off woman is never pointed enough and then we will get 'stupid' people who do think it is the standard.

Stupid people will be stupid stuff even if you tell them otherwise.
Smart poeple never believe in stupid things to believe with.

And please - using superhero comics as an example is just strange for one other reason:


Superhero comics throw the anatomy of BOTH sexes in the garbage bin and make science cry tears of blood.

It is the subtle things that are really dangerous and poisionous when dealing with subjects like misgony and homosexuality. Because it is those subtle things, that let stereo types which are flat out not true, gain root in the mind of the general population.

And unfortunately, plenty of people campaining or such noble goals are anything BUT subtle and do more harm than good. He who hunts monsters and all that jazz...
The lead a crusade agaisnt things you cannot get rid off (stereotyoes), because they are part of the most basic human thought proses and human nature - that is what pissses mny poeple off and that is why you often end up wiht the opposite reason.

I'd be  the first who'd strangle many of the so-called "moral crusaders" of today - not because I necessarily disagree with their goal, but because I utterly despise them and their methods and their ideas.

I am not saying that the over muscled sized muscle is not a problem. It is. But it is becoming lesser these days, because of people pointing out that it is not right (And realistic). That said, there do exist men who overload themselves with testorone to achieve something like that, the thing is. Just like with too thin models, there is a public focus on it not being natural. A similar public focus does not exist on women's sex poses on covers and in battle stances.

And I know that I cannot get rid of stereo types. (Heck I have plenty of my owns, properly also more than I am willing to acknowlegde) But I know that I can point out when something is wrong and overlooked as with female poses and I cannot see how, for example, having a flip cover with a man on one side and a woman on other side in the same (since they should hold the same weapon) pose could in any way harm the game negatively. Just because you cannot win a fight, doesn't mean you shouldn't do your best to fight it.

And we quite obviously don't life in the same society. There are no moral guardians of any public importance in my country (Well there is one party, but almost no one in the cultural scene votes for them). In fact toliet humor, sexism and an other crude forms of jokes are very spread out throughout the popluar culture. And while I have no intention of censuring (censuring is the worst form of way to fight against such things anyway), I do hold the right to say every little time that I think it is boring, bad told and generally not funny.

For example I think that The Witcher is a badly written game with a sexism stance towards woman, and generally function as power fantasy as the male equvilant of Twillight. But I do not think neither story shouldn't exist. There are plenty of people pointing out that The Witcher has sexism overtones, just like there are plenty of people pointing out that Twillight practically romantized abusive tendencies.

And that is fine with me. What I want is an acknowlegement of the problem being there, because it is the first and most important steps to get rid of those harmfull stereo types. Ignoring them or refusing to want to deal with them because you don't like the people who tries is... just plain weak.

[Battlebloodmage]

The Hierophant wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Lotion of all the comic artists available i can't believe you used Rob Liefeld as the example for superhero anatomy. It's like using Uwe Boll as an example for directing over Kubrick, Spielberg, Scorcese, hitchcock, or heck even the average budding amateur director.

I get your meaning, but Liefeld c'mon? I am disappoint.

I was just gonna say it, Greg Land and Rob Liefield are some of the worst comic book artists with bad work ethnic. People should never use them to represent actual hardworking artists out there for anything.

I did laugh when i saw Liefeld's cover art of Cap was posted.

That picture is such an epitome of bad art that I saw it posted constantly. Did you know that Liefield want to open a drawing class to teach people how to draw?

I'm surprised no one posted his drawing of "women" yet.

[thats1evildude]

YE GODS MY EYES

I think I posted that very same image in another thread discussing Liefeld's work.

[randomcheeses]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Lotion of all the comic artists available i can't believe you used Rob Liefeld as the example for superhero anatomy. It's like using Uwe Boll as an example for directing over Kubrick, Spielberg, Scorcese, hitchcock, or heck even the average budding amateur director.

I get your meaning, but Liefeld c'mon? I am disappoint.

I was just gonna say it, Greg Land and Rob Liefield are some of the worst comic book artists with bad work ethnic. People should never use them to represent actual hardworking artists out there for anything.

I did laugh when i saw Liefeld's cover art of Cap was posted.

That picture is such an epitome of bad art that I saw it posted constantly. Did you know that Liefield want to open a drawing class to teach people how to draw?

I'm surprised no one posted his drawing of "women" yet.

Out of curiosity I just tried that pose.

Ow. My spine!

[esper]

Gosh, suddenly his male seem down right natural in comparison. That... waist, that pose... that is... just... Oh god, what a bad drawing.

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Lotion of all the comic artists available i can't believe you used Rob Liefeld as the example for superhero anatomy. It's like using Uwe Boll as an example for directing over Kubrick, Spielberg, Scorcese, hitchcock, or heck even the average budding amateur director.

I get your meaning, but Liefeld c'mon? I am disappoint.

Well, to be fair, Liefeld was quite popular and one of the defining artists of a generation. Of course, that generation mostly sucked, but still. However, I believe both sides of the argument can safely say that anything drawn by Liefeld is not going to pass anatomic muster.

True as the early to mid 90's was  Liefeld's hayday, remember Image comic during his run?

[The Hierophant]

randomcheeses wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Lotion of all the comic artists available i can't believe you used Rob Liefeld as the example for superhero anatomy. It's like using Uwe Boll as an example for directing over Kubrick, Spielberg, Scorcese, hitchcock, or heck even the average budding amateur director.

I get your meaning, but Liefeld c'mon? I am disappoint.

I was just gonna say it, Greg Land and Rob Liefield are some of the worst comic book artists with bad work ethnic. People should never use them to represent actual hardworking artists out there for anything.

I did laugh when i saw Liefeld's cover art of Cap was posted.

That picture is such an epitome of bad art that I saw it posted constantly. Did you know that Liefield want to open a drawing class to teach people how to draw?

I'm surprised no one posted his drawing of "women" yet.

*snip*

Out of curiosity I just tried that pose.

Ow. My spine!

Lol

Modifié par The Hierophant, 18 décembre 2012 - 06:50 .

[Battlebloodmage]

The Hierophant wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Lotion of all the comic artists available i can't believe you used Rob Liefeld as the example for superhero anatomy. It's like using Uwe Boll as an example for directing over Kubrick, Spielberg, Scorcese, hitchcock, or heck even the average budding amateur director.

I get your meaning, but Liefeld c'mon? I am disappoint.

Well, to be fair, Liefeld was quite popular and one of the defining artists of a generation. Of course, that generation mostly sucked, but still. However, I believe both sides of the argument can safely say that anything drawn by Liefeld is not going to pass anatomic muster.

True as the early to mid 90's was  Liefeld's hayday, remember Image comic during his run?

He did create some of my favorite characters like Deadpool and Shatterstar. I still find his outrage over Shatterstar and Rictor a bit ridiculous though.

[Battlebloodmage]

randomcheeses wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Lotion of all the comic artists available i can't believe you used Rob Liefeld as the example for superhero anatomy. It's like using Uwe Boll as an example for directing over Kubrick, Spielberg, Scorcese, hitchcock, or heck even the average budding amateur director.

I get your meaning, but Liefeld c'mon? I am disappoint.

I was just gonna say it, Greg Land and Rob Liefield are some of the worst comic book artists with bad work ethnic. People should never use them to represent actual hardworking artists out there for anything.

I did laugh when i saw Liefeld's cover art of Cap was posted.

That picture is such an epitome of bad art that I saw it posted constantly. Did you know that Liefield want to open a drawing class to teach people how to draw?

I'm surprised no one posted his drawing of "women" yet.

Out of curiosity I just tried that pose.

Ow. My spine!

[The Hierophant]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Lotion of all the comic artists available i can't believe you used Rob Liefeld as the example for superhero anatomy. It's like using Uwe Boll as an example for directing over Kubrick, Spielberg, Scorcese, hitchcock, or heck even the average budding amateur director.

I get your meaning, but Liefeld c'mon? I am disappoint.

Well, to be fair, Liefeld was quite popular and one of the defining artists of a generation. Of course, that generation mostly sucked, but still. However, I believe both sides of the argument can safely say that anything drawn by Liefeld is not going to pass anatomic muster.

True as the early to mid 90's was  Liefeld's hayday, remember Image comic during his run?

He did create some of my favorite characters like Deadpool and Shatterstar. I still find his outrage over Shatterstar and Rictor a bit ridiculous though.

Indeed on Deadpool, but funnily enough it's the common reaction of fanboys when their favorite character's sexuality is revealed to be the opposite of what they wanted. His reaction is still priceless though.

[Battlebloodmage]

The Hierophant wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Lotion of all the comic artists available i can't believe you used Rob Liefeld as the example for superhero anatomy. It's like using Uwe Boll as an example for directing over Kubrick, Spielberg, Scorcese, hitchcock, or heck even the average budding amateur director.

I get your meaning, but Liefeld c'mon? I am disappoint.

Well, to be fair, Liefeld was quite popular and one of the defining artists of a generation. Of course, that generation mostly sucked, but still. However, I believe both sides of the argument can safely say that anything drawn by Liefeld is not going to pass anatomic muster.

True as the early to mid 90's was  Liefeld's hayday, remember Image comic during his run?

He did create some of my favorite characters like Deadpool and Shatterstar. I still find his outrage over Shatterstar and Rictor a bit ridiculous though.

Indeed on Deadpool, but funnily enough it's the common reaction of fanboys when their favorite character's sexuality is revealed to be the opposite of what they wanted. His reaction is still priceless though.

I laugh so hard when Liefeld stated that "Shatterstar is akin to Maximus in Gladiator. He’s a warrior, a Spartan, and not a gay one". Seriously, of all the examples you have to use to compare Shatterstar's straightness to, you use the ancient Greek? Peter David actually put it in the comic when Strong Guy ask if Shatterstar like Gladiator movies. Liefeld got trolled so hard.:innocent: . I would understand his point of view better if he would become outrage at every changes happen to his characters, but he's putting his foot down when they change Shatterstar's sexuality. This reminds me a lot about when they have Alan Scott as a gay character. DC changed people's race and background story, and the one thing you upset about is Alan's sexuality? The hypocrisy of some people. <_<

[Tootles FTW]

The Hierophant wrote...

He did create some of my favorite characters like Deadpool and Shatterstar. I still find his outrage over Shatterstar and Rictor a bit ridiculous though.

Liefeld's contribution to Deadpool and Shatterstar's character creation can be summed up as "pouches, shoulderpads & ponytails".  Joe Kelly, the writer who took over for him from 1997 to the 2000s, is responsible for the DP we know and love.

And as for darling Shatty-buns, Peter David is the best thing to happen to a lot of underused and underrated Marvel characters.

Modifié par Tootles FTW, 18 décembre 2012 - 07:19 .

[Kidd]

esper wrote...

Gosh, suddenly his male seem down right natural in comparison. That... waist, that pose... that is... just... Oh god, what a bad drawing.

I'm a huge fan of her mammaries as well. They go straight into her shoulders. Almost looks like the bra is a leather cover for an elbow with an arm punching right into her torso.

[Battlebloodmage]

Tootles FTW wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

He did create some of my favorite characters like Deadpool and Shatterstar. I still find his outrage over Shatterstar and Rictor a bit ridiculous though.

Liefeld's contribution to Deadpool and Shatterstar's character creation can be summed up as "pouches, shoulderpads & ponytails".  Joe Kelly, the writer who took over for him from 1997 to the 2000s, is responsible for the DP we know and love.

And as for darling Shatty-buns, Peter David is the best thing to happen to a lot of underused and underrated Marvel characters.

I know but if Liefield hadn't ripped off Deathstroke, we would never have Deadpool for the other writers to use. The same for Shatterstar, he created the character, but the other writers build up on the character. It were the other writers lay down the subtext between Shatterstar and Rictor then it was PAD who finally reveals their relationship. PAD did revive a lot of less popular characters, but he got rid of a lot of them recently though.

[esper]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

esper wrote...

Gosh, suddenly his male seem down right natural in comparison. That... waist, that pose... that is... just... Oh god, what a bad drawing.

I'm a huge fan of her mammaries as well. They go straight into her shoulders. Almost looks like the bra is a leather cover for an elbow with an arm punching right into her torso.

Actually I was trying to block from my memories that I even saw something in the chest area of that woman.

[AlexanderCousland]

The problem here is that Women take issue with the poses that have been assoiciated with "Sexxy", without realizing that Men have a stereotypical "Sexxy" standard as well, the key difference seem's to be that because the Masculine is not Feminine it does not matter as much.

[The Hierophant]

Battlebloodmage wrote...
I laugh so hard when Liefeld stated that "Shatterstar is akin to Maximus in Gladiator. He’s a warrior, a Spartan, and not a gay one". Seriously, of all the examples you have to use to compare Shatterstar's straightness to, you use the ancient Greek? Peter David actually put it in the comic when Strong Guy ask if Shatterstar like Gladiator movies. Liefeld got trolled so hard.:innocent: . I would understand his point of view better if he would become outrage at every changes happen to his characters, but he's putting his foot down when they change Shatterstar's sexuality. This reminds me a lot about when they have Alan Scott as a gay character. DC changed people's race and background story, and the one thing you upset about is Alan's sexuality? The hypocrisy of some people. <_<

The thing about Alan Scott was that not that many people were invested in his character or knew of his existence before the reveal. But i did feel for the Jade fans after the 52 relaunch.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 18 décembre 2012 - 07:39 .

[Battlebloodmage]

The Hierophant wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...
I laugh so hard when Liefeld stated that "Shatterstar is akin to Maximus in Gladiator. He’s a warrior, a Spartan, and not a gay one". Seriously, of all the examples you have to use to compare Shatterstar's straightness to, you use the ancient Greek? Peter David actually put it in the comic when Strong Guy ask if Shatterstar like Gladiator movies. Liefeld got trolled so hard.:innocent: . I would understand his point of view better if he would become outrage at every changes happen to his characters, but he's putting his foot down when they change Shatterstar's sexuality. This reminds me a lot about when they have Alan Scott as a gay character. DC changed people's race and background story, and the one thing you upset about is Alan's sexuality? The hypocrisy of some people. <_<

The thing about Alan Scott was that not that many people were invested in his character or knew of his existence before the reveal. But i did feel for the Jade fans after the 52 relaunch.

James Robinson said that he will try to find a way to incorporate Obsidian and Jade into the storyline eventually. Theory of the day, Alan's fiance, Sam, survive the explosion and become Obsidian wanting to take revenge on Alan Scott. All of Alan Scott's relationships started out as villains afterall. I still laugh at all the fuss people make over DC's statement that one of their iconic characters will be gay. Reading the outrage from the fanboys were one of my favorite pastime at the time. In the beginning, I thought it was gonna be Wally West.

[Allan Schumacher]

FreshIstay wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I bolded the fallacy you introduced.  No, it doesn't mean that every straight male gamer uncontrollably lusts (I doubt any "uncontrollably lusts."  It's just done because the typical straight male gamer tends to find it attractive.  It's probably not even the principal characteristic that motivates the guy to play the game.  But it doesn't hurt.

This is like the old Health classes I had where the teachers always had to explain that simply because you are not average, does not mean you aren't normal.

You bolded my fallacy, however, I bolded my point, which you seem to understand.

The thing is, your point has been coming across as though it's irrelevant.  This is what I disagree with.

Take the character traits and make Lara Croft a "typical" hideously ugly person, and I do believe there's less innate appeal based on the imagery we see and how it influences our purchasing decisions.


No one is saying "Men buy the game with sexy women ONLY for that sexy woman."  What people are saying is that men (in general), will have their decisions influenced by the women.  So a good game is still a good game, but if there's a good game with a very homely female on the cover, and a good game with a very attractive female on the cover, I'd be large sums of money on which ones get purchased, even if there isn't a conscious acknowledgement of the process.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 18 décembre 2012 - 08:04 .