680 réponses à ce sujet

[Arppis]

Darth Death wrote...

I guess the resources poured into being a woman protagonist isn't enough to satisfy the feminist gamer, I see.

All demographics are demanding a lot of things. You know like making new endings to certain games.

[Kidd]

Can we please keep both the trap and tranny words away from, I dunno, everywhere? Tranny is probably along the same strength and usage as the N-word (you can use it with attitude if you are one yourself, yet it's still kinda dumb sounding). Trap is most likely never heard without it coming off as derogatory. I mean, this is the same word we use for stuff that fling magic missile on us to kill us when we forget to bring Imoen.

FreshIstay wrote...

If Women are needed to validate a Male's "power fantasy" , then that Male isnt even actually empowered, he is dependent upon the "Hot Girl" to validate his power. I, as a male, do not need the big titted curvacious women to validate any "power fantasy" I may or may not have.

That's great! You sound like you've got your own self-worth sorted out when you say this. That's a good thing. You're sadly not every person, however.

This reminds me of when people get defensive after hearing "those who do X are pigs" and then get defensive for no reason. If you don't do X, you're no pig. In fact you're on our non-piggy side then. So why are you defending the pigs?

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 18 décembre 2012 - 10:01 .

[d4eaming]

Blue Gloves wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

I want a trap/tranny to be on the cover of a video game box

bioware pls

i feel ignorant, but what is a trap?

Uh yeah, both those words are incredibly offensive and gross. I'm surprised this thread is even still going, to be honest.

[Blue Gloves]

d4eaming wrote...


Uh yeah, both those words are incredibly offensive and gross. I'm surprised this thread is even still going, to be honest.

Yeah, I know tranny is uncool, but I've honestly never heard the term 'trap'.  Sorry if I offended.

[Battlebloodmage]

Atalanta wrote...

@Lazengan
@Battlebloodmage
I hope you guys know that it's considered a derogatory slur? Ugh, I am so done with this thread.  

I was clarified on the definition, didn't say if I support the use of it.

[brushyourteeth]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

This may come as a shock to a few of you, but men and women aren't really all that different from one another.

The DA team could just, you know, be making the game they want to make and trusting that people will like it. The same way that both men and women like hiking or pancakes. Not all of them will, but maybe gender has a lot less to do with it than you'd think.

Oh but we are different from one another, want to know an even bigger shocker? People of different races and cultures are different too!



However before you all go ahead and point the racism stick at me as well just consider this, it isnt racist or sexist to acknowledge our differences, however to cover up and hide our differences or refuse to acknowledge our differences as if we should be ashamed of them is just another form of racism in itself. Now personally I always thought that was what made the world great, that we are all different, that the world is full of unique people and cultures, we should be celebrating our differences not sweeping them under a rug. Perhaps this post will be deleted, perhaps these forums arent mature enough to discuss such matters, perhaps most of you arent able to treat your fellow human beings as equals without pretending that our differences dont exist but it is something that needs to be said, if you feel so threatened by someone's differences whether they be man, woman, black, white, gay or Japanese that you need to pretend that they dont exist then perhaps it is you who needs to look in the mirror and grow up.

I'm not sure what inspired this weird of a response.

Race wasn't ever part of (at least my part of) the discussion. And I won't say that men and women don't have differences -- what I am saying is that Dragon Age doesn't need to change anything in order to appeal to me, and I am female. Clearly, men and women can like the same things. And thank goodness --- I hate to see what would happen if the gaming industry decided that there needed to be *manly* games and separate *girly* games. As it is, I don't think that the average male gamer is notably sexist. So to see such bizarre comments and defensiveness from some of the dudes on this forum is flat-out shocking to me. Nobody's trying to take over your hobby, dude. I just like the same things that you do. Make room on the couch and share the popcorn like a big kid. The community's better with both genders in it anyway.

Click for a fun example of how people respond when products are made *for women* that don't need to be.




Changing gears, I agree completely with this:

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I would like it, personally, if no 'set protagonist' is used in advertising at all. I would prefer that the option of getting choices in how your character looks and what class they can play be at the fore front of an advertising campaign.

*snip*

People who look at the cover of ME3 and just think 'Oh, A shooting game in space where I play as this dude/this chick.' That's not the beauty of Bioware games. It's the idea that you can make your own character, not play someone else's. that's what Bioware should be advertising, not showing some picture of a pre-rendered character, male OR female.

[AlexanderCousland]

Blue Gloves wrote...

These very clearly indicate that you feel that Women wish to take something away from men in general, and desire to dominate every last bastion of male fortitude.

Perhaps I was meant to understand that you don't feel strongly about what you imply in your posts?

In any event, I have attempted to point out in several ways that what you are advocating is not, in fact, the type of equality that women (actually, scratch that, since I cannot claim to speak for all women) I am after, and that many of your comments seem defensive and are offensive.  I've attempted to understand where you're coming from, but in every case you've replied with defensive brush offs- so thanks for the debate, and sorry I've wasted your time, but I think I'm done conversing with you now.

I dont feel Women want to "take" anything from Men, I do feel Women want to be a part of everything that  has traditionally been defined as Masculine  to various degree's of inclusion.  While most Men, simply aren't interested in most thing's that have traditionally been defined as Feminine, so they wont advocate to take part in those things, usually in an effort to prevent the assumption from Men and Women alike that  they might be perceived as  "Whimp's, Softie's, Girly, ******'s".  I do feel that Feminism has admirable quality's and that some of the work has definitely seen progess. I also feel that while Feminism continue's to be instilled in school ciriculum that alot of young men are losing their purpose, and many young male's have lost the sense of self,  in the belief that Female's = Hapiness and that their partner's hapiness and treatment and sexual desire's  are superior to their own. In effort's to eliminate what Male's themselve's deem attractive/sexxy/appealing for  Women your sending as message that what Men feel inside themselve's is bad, which it is not. 

To be clear, Women should have representation, they should have what they are advocating for, and they WILL get their way, and if you find it offensive that I beleive women get their way, Im sorry, but Life experience has taught me exactly that.  I will not apologize for that view. That said, I am not against anything Female's themselve's say they want, or are advocating for, I support them In most cases. and resent being labled a Mysoginst, when i dont hate female's at all, all I want is for people to see that both gender's have problem's in regard's to representation in the media, BOTH and ALL of us. 

I'd kindly ask anyone who want's to respond to my statement's to quote me fully please, so i wont be misunderstood. 



 





  

Modifié par FreshIstay, 19 décembre 2012 - 12:18 .

[AlexanderCousland]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

This reminds me of when people get defensive after hearing "those who do X are pigs" and then get defensive for no reason. If you don't do X, you're no pig. In fact you're on our non-piggy side then. So why are you defending the pigs?

Because I don't feel that the people you label "pigs" can be summarized as "pigs" for making their artwork the way they themselve's see fit.

[Firky]

This thread is bizarre.

It may be partly because I was present at the dawn of PC gaming, but I'd contend that gaming wasn't originally a "masculine pursuit" at all. Maybe more men played games, I don't know, but it just was what it was.

When I was about 12, I wrote Roberta Williams a letter and she wrote one back, for goodness sakes. I didn't even write to her because I was a girl and she was a woman, I just thought she was one of my favourite designers. (She's amazing, btw.)

Then there were designers like Sheri Graner Ray and Lori Ann Cole, etc etc etc. There weren't so few female designers that it ever crossed my mind that gaming was an overtly male dominated industry in the 80s, even if it was. I didn't know many people who played games, so I didn't think being a "girl gamer" was weird. either.

There were female protagonists in RPGs - even gender undefined protagonists. They weren't wearing skimpy clothes. The druid in Ultima Forever art, for example, is wearing a leaf bikini. The druid in Ultima 4 (though she is small and pixelly) is fully clothed.

My dad got me into games. He would never have done so if he'd smelled a whiff of sexism when I was a young girl. I'm struggling to think of good, early examples of sexism in gaming, beyond your "saving the princess" style thing. And Sierra adventures often had the princess or the queen doing the saving, anyway.

If anything, if people come across as "women are trying to ruin a perfectly fine as it is male hobby" they're simply trying to claim something that was never theirs in the first place. It may have become a bit silly in recent years with chain mail bikinis and the like, but it's still gaming. It's narratives and systems and winning and progression. The people who like it, and always have, are people, not "males" "females" etc.

[Allan Schumacher]

Then there were designers like Sheri Graner Ray and Lori Ann Cole, etc etc etc. There weren't so few female designers that it ever crossed my mind that gaming was an overtly male dominated industry in the 80s, even if it was. I didn't know many people who played games, so I didn't think being a "girl gamer" was weird. either.

Were you primarily a PC gamer?

I agree with most of what you say, and am curious if this push became more prevalent as gaming pushed into mainstream and (perhaps most importantly) graphical fidelity improved.

Having said that, in my experiences growing up, video gaming was typically a male dominated hobby.

I found this particularly relevant to this topic. (The cover of The Last of Us)

[Firky]

PC. (Apart from a brief flirtation with ColecoVision, but you'd hardly accuse Q*Bert of being just for guys.)

I didn't really know many gamers, but the ones I did know, really, were 80% female, because I was a girl and had mostly female friends. Did you know more male gamers because your friends were male? (That's not an accusation, just an idea.)

I've wondered about graphics and this issue before. Like, were those pixelly people wearing pants because it was hard to make leaf bikinis? I dunno. Some early sprites were scantily clad, male and female. (Leisure suit Larry games come to mind, but they're kind of the exception.)

As for box art, however, that might be a bit different. There are probably lots of examples of male heroes and scantily clad women. A quick look through the GOG catalogue could confirm that, probably. But there are also lots of covers that don't fit that mold at all.

I'd probably agree that more men/boys got into early gaming than women/girls, but not that early gaming could be called a "masculine pursuit." That's not to say that male dominated hobby=sexist hobby, just that there was nothing, to my mind, that was deliberately made to make it appeal more to men in the early 80s. It was just gaming.

Modifié par Firky, 19 décembre 2012 - 02:55 .

[Maria Caliban]

It is telling that even Portal won't put their female lead on the cover. Instead opting for robots that are only accessible via MP.

[Thrillian]

Firky wrote...

This thread is bizarre.

It may be partly because I was present at the dawn of PC gaming, but I'd contend that gaming wasn't originally a "masculine pursuit" at all. Maybe more men played games, I don't know, but it just was what it was.

When I was about 12, I wrote Roberta Williams a letter and she wrote one back, for goodness sakes. I didn't even write to her because I was a girl and she was a woman, I just thought she was one of my favourite designers. (She's amazing, btw.)

Then there were designers like Sheri Graner Ray and Lori Ann Cole, etc etc etc. There weren't so few female designers that it ever crossed my mind that gaming was an overtly male dominated industry in the 80s, even if it was. I didn't know many people who played games, so I didn't think being a "girl gamer" was weird. either.

There were female protagonists in RPGs - even gender undefined protagonists. They weren't wearing skimpy clothes. The druid in Ultima Forever art, for example, is wearing a leaf bikini. The druid in Ultima 4 (though she is small and pixelly) is fully clothed.

My dad got me into games. He would never have done so if he'd smelled a whiff of sexism when I was a young girl. I'm struggling to think of good, early examples of sexism in gaming, beyond your "saving the princess" style thing. And Sierra adventures often had the princess or the queen doing the saving, anyway.

If anything, if people come across as "women are trying to ruin a perfectly fine as it is male hobby" they're simply trying to claim something that was never theirs in the first place. It may have become a bit silly in recent years with chain mail bikinis and the like, but it's still gaming. It's narratives and systems and winning and progression. The people who like it, and always have, are people, not "males" "females" etc.

I've been gaming for about 26 years, my first experience with video games was sitting on my dad's lap and playing D&D on the Intellivision.

Growing up I played video games all the time. In retrospec I guess most of the friends I played with were guys, but until recently I never realized there was a "boy's club" mindset when it came to gaming.

[CuriousArtemis]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Having said that, in my experiences growing up, video gaming was typically a male dominated hobby.

It didn't start out this way, but over time it became marketed that way.

I started out playing Mario with my sister and female cousin on my cousin's Nintendo system. No, scratch that, I started playing Jump Man and Rootin' Tootin' with my sister on my dad's Commodore 64.

But inexplicably, for some reason, one year my parents bought my brother a Sega Genesis. Not me or my sister, but my brother. My YOUNGER brother. 

I was forced to play games on my brother's system in my brother's room. I had to play the games that other people bought him because no one bought me games.

I played Sonic the Hedgehog, Tomb Raider, Metal Gear Solid, FIFA, Mortal Kombat, and loads of other games. Speaking of FIFA, my brother was put on a soccer team by my parents. I was not, even though I really wanted to play. I was given piano lessons.

As an adult, I continued to visit my brother to play video games on his system because that was just how I'd grown up, and I never questioned that. I played on male friends' and boyfriends' systems, too. When my sister got married, I played primarily on her husband's xbox. That's when I first encountered Dragon Age 2.

I had played Halo, Gears of War, Portal, Star Wars: Force Unleashed, and everything in between, but when I played Dragon Age, something happened. I couldn't stop thinking about the story. I got online and looked, for the first time, at what it would cost to own an xbox. I bought a refurbished xbox for $100 and then bought Dragon Age: Origins, which I really enjoyed, though not as much as DA2. I then bought DA2 and proceeded to play both games religiously.

That's my experience, and I wonder how many women my age (I'm 32) have had similar experiences. And I hope this sheds some light on women and gaming culture.

[David7204]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but I've seen statistics saying the percentage of female gamers is about 40% or even higher. I think I saw Merizan talking about it once on a tweet.

I seriously doubt it's that high. And I would be very, very hesitant to put any weight on that statistic.

[Allan Schumacher]

PC. (Apart from a brief flirtation with ColecoVision, but you'd hardly accuse Q*Bert of being just for guys.)

Pitstop is totally inappropriate. And by inappropriate, I mean awesome (I loved that game).

I didn't really know many gamers, but the ones I did know, really, were 80% female, because I was a girl and had mostly female friends. Did you know more male gamers because your friends were male? (That's not an accusation, just an idea.)

I was more just recalling the breakdown of my classrooms in school (as well as my extended family), as opposed to my personal friendships. But its so long ago that it's not really accurate. Although I can confidently say that I definitely knew many gamers while growing up.


By the time junior high and high school came around, I played on basketball teams, and at the team get togethers it was always a group of guys that dominated the game system setup, while the women did not.

That's not to say that male dominated hobby=sexist hobby, just that there was nothing, to my mind, that was deliberately made to make it appeal more to men in the early 80s. It was just gaming.

This is true. I'd say there was probably a bias (culturally based, and I can't really say why or what) that predisposed males to being gamers moreso than females when I was growing up, but I don't think it was due to any overt sexist overtones, but rather just implicit gender roles that steered men towards computers.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 19 décembre 2012 - 03:11 .

[brushyourteeth]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

PC. (Apart from a brief flirtation with ColecoVision, but you'd hardly accuse Q*Bert of being just for guys.)

Pitstop is totally inappropriate. And by inappropriate, I mean awesome (I loved that game).

I didn't really know many gamers, but the ones I did know, really, were 80% female, because I was a girl and had mostly female friends. Did you know more male gamers because your friends were male? (That's not an accusation, just an idea.)

I was more just recalling the breakdown of my classrooms in school (as well as my extended family), as opposed to my personal friendships. But its so long ago that it's not really accurate. Although I can confidently say that I definitely knew many gamers while growing up.


By the time junior high and high school came around, I played on basketball teams, and at the team get togethers it was always a group of guys that dominated the game system setup, while the women did not.

I don't think this is necessarily evidence that there are an equal amount of female gamers as male ones, but I can honestly say that though I'm a pretty obnoxiously extroverted type of girl, I often keep my gaming to myself in conversation and have since junior high school (back in the 90's).

Reasons:
1.) Girls and guys both often seem to perceive that girl-gaming is intended to be nerd-sexy. That's not why I game, and "that's hot" isn't the response I've ever wanted when mentioning my favorite hobby.
2.) In a room full of guys who are gaming, a girl who speaks up and says "I'd like to play" is apt to feel awkward barging into the "boys' club" (eye-rolling ensues)
3.) Even when gaming online, I often choose not to reveal that I'm a woman and/or refuse to use a mic because
          - my performance will be scrutinized in a way it wouldn't if I were a man
          - I will be flirted with
          - I will be coddled or treated as if I'm a beginner that needs extra protection
          - (some) male gamers will be incredibly angry to be beaten by me because of my gender
          - I have actually been kicked before. Just for speaking into a mic, which reveals that I'm female

So while the numbers may not be equal, they may be higher than a lot of guys realize since maybe girls don't speak up about it.

So I can't say that I'm super offended by the way that advertisers appeal to male gamers, but I have learned from experience that I'm often not treated as an equal or welcome member of the gaming community.
Which sucks, because I love gaming as much as anyone. And I'm good, dammit. 

[Dabrikishaw]

Trap is a slur?

[Firky]

Pit stop! I totally girled that game up. I was too wussy to let my tires get red. I used to have girly 80s sleepovers with a bowl of popcorn and the Colecovision, no joke.

Female gamers often don't speak up about it. (I have a male avatar, as do lots.) There are a whole bunch of reasons why women don't talk about their gaming hobby, now. When I was in High School, I kept it vaguely to myself, because everything was bully-fodder, apart from some magical combination of popular things I never quite grasped. It was that simple.

I'm always surprised by women I've known for a really long time (most recently, a girl I taught when she was at high school and is now a tech writer) who will break out long, detailed stories about games and I had no idea they were a gamer, at all.

I'm 34. It's interesting that people I talk to who are even 5 years younger seem to have a different and similar perception about the "maleness" of gaming - as a generalisation, but a trend, in my experience. But, if there's anyone else 32+, say, who disagrees with me, go for it. I'm very interested.

(PS. I found "trap" offensive in this thread and every where else. Transgender people aren't trying to trick other people into anything. They're just transgender people, who are people.)

Modifié par Firky, 19 décembre 2012 - 04:33 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Reasons:
1.) Girls and guys both often seem to perceive that girl-gaming is intended to be nerd-sexy. That's not why I game, and "that's hot" isn't the response I've ever wanted when mentioning my favorite hobby.
2.) In a room full of guys who are gaming, a girl who speaks up and says "I'd like to play" is apt to feel awkward barging into the "boys' club" (eye-rolling ensues)
3.) Even when gaming online, I often choose not to reveal that I'm a woman and/or refuse to use a mic because
- my performance will be scrutinized in a way it wouldn't if I were a man
- I will be flirted with
- I will be coddled or treated as if I'm a beginner that needs extra protection
- (some) male gamers will be incredibly angry to be beaten by me because of my gender
- I have actually been kicked before. Just for speaking into a mic, which reveals that I'm female

That's fair, and to be clear my impressions of my youth come strictly from my own assumptions and interpretations. Just because I perceive it that way, doesn't mean that my perception matches actual reality.

I still think it's telling that you felt that way, and I'm curious if there are a significant number of women that resisted gaming because of the social perception and pressures that they shouldn't be. I do agree with the idea that there is nothing intrinsic about gaming that would lead to a gender divide. IMO it's all cultural.

[Allan Schumacher]

Pit stop! I totally girled that game up. I was too wussy to let my tires get red. I used to have girly 80s sleepovers with a bowl of popcorn and the Colecovision, no joke.

Pssh. I liked to risk it and see if I could make it just one more lap!

[FaWa]

The funny thing is, most Sierra games were on low budgets, and yet they had better stories, more entertaining moments, and were just more fun as opposed to today's games. I mean, Regina getting force fed animal poop until she choked to death was (And still is) the most WTF moment I have EVER seen in a video game.

All thanks to Roberta, the best designer in the history of games. 

Modifié par FaWa, 19 décembre 2012 - 04:37 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Eh. I liked the Sierra Adventure games. My favourites were the Police Quest games, followed by Black Cauldron, but I'm glad those aren't the only types of games that were ever made.

It was a different time especially, where I feel game designers so their relationship with gamers as innately adversarial. That is, I am pretty sure that every time you died in Space Quest II, a game designer somewhere considered it a victory for himself.


Although unfortunately, the King's Quest ones never really appealed to me.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 19 décembre 2012 - 04:42 .

[Dabrikishaw]

(PS. I found "trap" offensive in this thread and every where else. Transgender people aren't trying to trick other people into anything. They're just transgender people, who are people.)

Oh. Guess I need to rethink the manga and anime communities I hang out on.