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[Firky]

Dabrikishaw wrote...

(PS. I found "trap" offensive in this thread and every where else. Transgender people aren't trying to trick other people into anything. They're just transgender people, who are people.)

Oh. Guess I need to rethink the manga and anime communities I hang out on.

You can be offended by whatever you're offended by - or not, is my point.

@Allan I don't know what my friends would have made of a guy who let his tires get red. I suspect they would have disapproved.

Modifié par Firky, 19 décembre 2012 - 05:02 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Well...

[d4eaming]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Reasons:
1.) Girls and guys both often seem to perceive that girl-gaming is intended to be nerd-sexy. That's not why I game, and "that's hot" isn't the response I've ever wanted when mentioning my favorite hobby.
2.) In a room full of guys who are gaming, a girl who speaks up and says "I'd like to play" is apt to feel awkward barging into the "boys' club" (eye-rolling ensues)
3.) Even when gaming online, I often choose not to reveal that I'm a woman and/or refuse to use a mic because
- my performance will be scrutinized in a way it wouldn't if I were a man
- I will be flirted with
- I will be coddled or treated as if I'm a beginner that needs extra protection
- (some) male gamers will be incredibly angry to be beaten by me because of my gender
- I have actually been kicked before. Just for speaking into a mic, which reveals that I'm female

That's fair, and to be clear my impressions of my youth come strictly from my own assumptions and interpretations. Just because I perceive it that way, doesn't mean that my perception matches actual reality.

I still think it's telling that you felt that way, and I'm curious if there are a significant number of women that resisted gaming because of the social perception and pressures that they shouldn't be. I do agree with the idea that there is nothing intrinsic about gaming that would lead to a gender divide. IMO it's all cultural.

Hey Allan, my experience is the same (and it's pretty widespread in WoW). I ID as different than my perceived gender, basically I see myself more androgynous or boyish than feminine. I was in a guild who, for a year, treated me as one of the guys- which is what I preffered. I got to experience some guy-gossip from that, it was quite entertaining. I switched guilds, and let them assume the same. I never said otherwise, as I found it pretty irrelevant to the game, and we were a group of good friends, as much as you can be while playing WoW. Then we got into a raid, and suddenly I had to get on vent, which meant speaking.

I was not treated badly. They were a good group of guys that didn't pull any sexist junk before that. I was certainly treated differently though. It forever changed our interaction. The "reasons" quoted above are things I have experienced though when people did find out I was "female". I try very hard to let people continue to assume I'm just a guy, partly for those reasons and partly because of how I ID myself, but there is a definite number of assumptions made about female gamers. Gay gamers, as well (one of my characters is on a notoriously GLBT-friendly server, and if you make a mistake or don't live up to their standards, people in randoms will throw out all the gay slurs they can until they harass you to the point of quitting the group).

It's unfortunate, and if you are outside of those minority groups, you may not notice it the way the people who are part of those groups do.

Modifié par d4eaming, 19 décembre 2012 - 04:56 .

[brushyourteeth]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Reasons:
1.) Girls and guys both often seem to perceive that girl-gaming is intended to be nerd-sexy. That's not why I game, and "that's hot" isn't the response I've ever wanted when mentioning my favorite hobby.
2.) In a room full of guys who are gaming, a girl who speaks up and says "I'd like to play" is apt to feel awkward barging into the "boys' club" (eye-rolling ensues)
3.) Even when gaming online, I often choose not to reveal that I'm a woman and/or refuse to use a mic because
- my performance will be scrutinized in a way it wouldn't if I were a man
- I will be flirted with
- I will be coddled or treated as if I'm a beginner that needs extra protection
- (some) male gamers will be incredibly angry to be beaten by me because of my gender
- I have actually been kicked before. Just for speaking into a mic, which reveals that I'm female

That's fair, and to be clear my impressions of my youth come strictly from my own assumptions and interpretations. Just because I perceive it that way, doesn't mean that my perception matches actual reality.

I still think it's telling that you felt that way, and I'm curious if there are a significant number of women that resisted gaming because of the social perception and pressures that they shouldn't be. I do agree with the idea that there is nothing intrinsic about gaming that would lead to a gender divide. IMO it's all cultural.

I think that's what some forumites mean when they suggest that marketing the game more toward females would increase the fanbase and make the company more money.

I'm sure there are plenty of burgeoning lady-gamers out there who are waiting to test their wings, and could use some kind of nudge that gives them *permission* to try gaming. I'm just not sure that cover art is the right way to do it.

And dumbing down the quality of games for the benefit of female gamers (which seems to be what some posters are suggesting is already happening) is definitely not.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 19 décembre 2012 - 04:57 .

[Firky]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Well...

Nah. My friends would have been like, "Look at that stupid boy. Doesn't he know they're going to explode?" 

[Allan Schumacher]

I'm sure there are plenty of burgeoning lady-gamers out there who are waiting to test their wings, and could use some kind of nudge that gives them *permission* to try gaming. I'm just not sure that cover art is the right way to do it.

The thing about cover art is that it's often reflective of the media campaign at large. If we end up putting a woman on the box, it also probably means we're featuring the female in other aspects of marketing as well. At least, that's the way I've usually seen it with BioWare's titles since at least Mass Effect.

[berelinde]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I don't think this is necessarily evidence that there are an equal amount of female gamers as male ones, but I can honestly say that though I'm a pretty obnoxiously extroverted type of girl, I often keep my gaming to myself in conversation and have since junior high school (back in the 90's).

Reasons:
1.) Girls and guys both often seem to perceive that girl-gaming is intended to be nerd-sexy. That's not why I game, and "that's hot" isn't the response I've ever wanted when mentioning my favorite hobby.
2.) In a room full of guys who are gaming, a girl who speaks up and says "I'd like to play" is apt to feel awkward barging into the "boys' club" (eye-rolling ensues)
3.) Even when gaming online, I often choose not to reveal that I'm a woman and/or refuse to use a mic because
          - my performance will be scrutinized in a way it wouldn't if I were a man
          - I will be flirted with
          - I will be coddled or treated as if I'm a beginner that needs extra protection
          - (some) male gamers will be incredibly angry to be beaten by me because of my gender
          - I have actually been kicked before. Just for speaking into a mic, which reveals that I'm female

So while the numbers may not be equal, they may be higher than a lot of guys realize since maybe girls don't speak up about it.

So I can't say that I'm super offended by the way that advertisers appeal to male gamers, but I have learned from experience that I'm often not treated as an equal or welcome member of the gaming community.
Which sucks, because I love gaming as much as anyone. And I'm good, dammit. 

The numbers may also be skewed in some instances because of females listing their gender as "male" or "undisclosed" on their profiles in order to avoid harassment.

Back in the old days when I used to play multi-player online, I listed my gender as male, used a male-sounding username, a male avatar, and played exclusively male characters because I got tired of juvenile comments about boobies. In other words, bullet point 3 definitely applies.

I've been a gamer since I was 9... tabletop DnD. If they had computer games in the mid '70s, I didn't know about them. My cousin bought my sister and me the first DnD boxed set because she thought it would annoy my mother. In high school and college, my gaming circle expanded to include people outside my immediate family and most of the people in it were male, but then again, most of my friends were male, so that means nothing. I didn't get into computer gaming until around 2005, and that was because my PnP group disbanded.

In perfect honesty, I never really expected equal representation in games, although I'm delighted when I find it. I came to gaming from a PnP culture, which was and may still be male dominated. You don't get as much harassment in a PnP environment, though. Maybe it's harder to be an ass to someone without the anonymity of the internet.

[FaWa]

They should feature a female PC this time around. DA3 seems like a good time to do it. I don't see why not. DAO had no people on the cover and outsold DA2, which had a man with a bad haircut surrounded by random hoes

[Battlebloodmage]

Firky wrote...

Dabrikishaw wrote...

(PS. I found "trap" offensive in this thread and every where else. Transgender people aren't trying to trick other people into anything. They're just transgender people, who are people.)

Oh. Guess I need to rethink the manga and anime communities I hang out on.

You can find be offended by whatever you're offended by.

@Allan I don't know what my friends would have made of a guy who let his tires get red. I suspect they would have disapproved.

The term is used very commonly in the manga community to describe some characters in the gender-bender genre. I don't think they use that much outside of it. Some of the mangas I read have cross-dressing characters in it which are referred to as "trap". Some of them are even identified as "straight", who for a variety of reasons do it to help out a girl they like. They're not really transgender people. The term "trap" in the mange/anime sense don't just refer to transgenders. Asides from that, there are manga in which are referred to as "trap", but I don't think they meant to treat this character in a negative sense since most of the other boys in the school love them even though they know that the character is a transgender person. Himitsu no Akuma-Chan, Prunus Girl, and No Bra come to mind when I think of those characters archetypes. The term has become pretty prevalent even outside the manga comunity. I guess I see why some people find it offensive. This seems to be a touchy subject for some people, so I would probably avoid discuss this any further though.

[thats1evildude]

FaWa wrote...

They should feature a female PC this time around. DA3 seems like a good time to do it. I don't see why not. DAO had no people on the cover and outsold DA2, which had a man with a bad haircut surrounded by random hoes

What're ye talkin' about? The DAO cover had a man in armour wielding a sword and shield and a hooded Morrigan in the corner.

[brushyourteeth]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm sure there are plenty of burgeoning lady-gamers out there who are waiting to test their wings, and could use some kind of nudge that gives them *permission* to try gaming. I'm just not sure that cover art is the right way to do it.

The thing about cover art is that it's often reflective of the media campaign at large. If we end up putting a woman on the box, it also probably means we're featuring the female in other aspects of marketing as well. At least, that's the way I've usually seen it with BioWare's titles since at least Mass Effect.

Yeah, the cover art doesn't really concern me too much, since (as Fast Jimmy said earlier) the protagonist on the box isn't going to be reflective of my protagonist anyway.

And really, I've never once felt like Bioware has under/misrepresented my gender or failed to appreciate us as fans.


When 30 Seconds to Mars released their "This is War" album, they released a bunch of different editions with a photo of a different fan on each one, and their generic album cover on the other side.
Maybe Bioware could do something similar, but with our companions/major NPC's instead?
"I want the Flemeth cover!"
"I want the Cassandra cover!"
"Calm down, kids, they all look the same when you flip them to the other side." 

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 19 décembre 2012 - 05:16 .

[FaWa]

thats1evildude wrote...

FaWa wrote...

They should feature a female PC this time around. DA3 seems like a good time to do it. I don't see why not. DAO had no people on the cover and outsold DA2, which had a man with a bad haircut surrounded by random hoes

What're ye talkin' about? The DAO cover had a man in armour wielding a sword and shield and a hooded Morrigan in the corner.

Holy **** I just looked again and there are people in the dragon WTF???
Whatever the case is, the person in the armour could be a woman and Morrigan and 

Yea I give up haha. 

Still, please feature a female in the DA3 advertising campaign. 

[Maria Caliban]

thats1evildude wrote...

FaWa wrote...

They should feature a female PC this time around. DA3 seems like a good time to do it. I don't see why not. DAO had no people on the cover and outsold DA2, which had a man with a bad haircut surrounded by random hoes

What're ye talkin' about? The DAO cover had a man in armour wielding a sword and shield and a hooded Morrigan in the corner.

Correct:



The CE cover was a sword with just the man in it.

[Firky]

@Battlebloodmage I don't know of the words usage in manga/anime. But, my experiences of it, like you say, in the mainstream seem to have lent it a different meaning. (That happens to words. I understand people use them differently, even if I don't like that one particularly.)

[Blue Gloves]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I don't think this is necessarily evidence that there are an equal amount of female gamers as male ones, but I can honestly say that though I'm a pretty obnoxiously extroverted type of girl, I often keep my gaming to myself in conversation and have since junior high school (back in the 90's).

Reasons:
1.) Girls and guys both often seem to perceive that girl-gaming is intended to be nerd-sexy. That's not why I game, and "that's hot" isn't the response I've ever wanted when mentioning my favorite hobby.
2.) In a room full of guys who are gaming, a girl who speaks up and says "I'd like to play" is apt to feel awkward barging into the "boys' club" (eye-rolling ensues)
3.) Even when gaming online, I often choose not to reveal that I'm a woman and/or refuse to use a mic because
          - my performance will be scrutinized in a way it wouldn't if I were a man
          - I will be flirted with
          - I will be coddled or treated as if I'm a beginner that needs extra protection
          - (some) male gamers will be incredibly angry to be beaten by me because of my gender
          - I have actually been kicked before. Just for speaking into a mic, which reveals that I'm female

So while the numbers may not be equal, they may be higher than a lot of guys realize since maybe girls don't speak up about it.

So I can't say that I'm super offended by the way that advertisers appeal to male gamers, but I have learned from experience that I'm often not treated as an equal or welcome member of the gaming community.
Which sucks, because I love gaming as much as anyone. And I'm good, dammit. 

You are not alone my friend!  I very, very rarely ever play with anyone that isn't on my friend list, but just last week I had a little time off and thought- "Gee, I'd really love to go crazy and blow up some pixels today, even though it's the middle of the week!  Woohoo!"  I was so excited to have a few hours off while the kiddo was in school and the house was actually already spotless (for a change) that I failed to think clearly and turn my mike off.  About thirty minutes into a session, I made a particularly awesome and unique kill and said "yes!!!  I am ridiculous!" or some such nonsense, and the response to my feminine voice was IMMEDIATE.  And ugly.  I responded by simply muting my mic and continuing to play in blessed silence.  However, after we finished the round, I was kicked, even though I'd literally uttered less than 6 words and had the highest kill count in the group.  It ruined my day completely, and it brought it home yet again exactly why so many women are unwilling to transcend the boundary and try out a game for themselves.

Modifié par Blue Gloves, 19 décembre 2012 - 05:32 .

[Atalanta]

Battlebloodmage wrote...
I was clarified on the definition, didn't say if I support the use of it.

Apologies then, but I think that if you were aware of the meaning, you probably would have been better served by just leaving it at "it's a slur."

I know next to nothing about anime/manga, so I wasn't aware that it was a "thing" within some communities to use it without the intent of being deragotory. But I've personally only ever heard it used in the nastiest of contexts, directed at real people, so when I see it thrown around as a joke I get super grumpy.

[berelinde]

Blue Gloves wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

I don't think this is necessarily evidence that there are an equal amount of female gamers as male ones, but I can honestly say that though I'm a pretty obnoxiously extroverted type of girl, I often keep my gaming to myself in conversation and have since junior high school (back in the 90's).

Reasons:
1.) Girls and guys both often seem to perceive that girl-gaming is intended to be nerd-sexy. That's not why I game, and "that's hot" isn't the response I've ever wanted when mentioning my favorite hobby.
2.) In a room full of guys who are gaming, a girl who speaks up and says "I'd like to play" is apt to feel awkward barging into the "boys' club" (eye-rolling ensues)
3.) Even when gaming online, I often choose not to reveal that I'm a woman and/or refuse to use a mic because
          - my performance will be scrutinized in a way it wouldn't if I were a man
          - I will be flirted with
          - I will be coddled or treated as if I'm a beginner that needs extra protection
          - (some) male gamers will be incredibly angry to be beaten by me because of my gender
          - I have actually been kicked before. Just for speaking into a mic, which reveals that I'm female

So while the numbers may not be equal, they may be higher than a lot of guys realize since maybe girls don't speak up about it.

So I can't say that I'm super offended by the way that advertisers appeal to male gamers, but I have learned from experience that I'm often not treated as an equal or welcome member of the gaming community.
Which sucks, because I love gaming as much as anyone. And I'm good, dammit. 

You are not alone my friend!  I very, very rarely ever play with anyone that isn't on my friend list, but just last week I had a little time off and thought- "Gee, I'd really love to go crazy and blow up some pixels today, even though it's the middle of the week!  Woohoo!"  I was so excited to have a few hours off while the kiddo was in school and the house was actually already spotless (for a change) that I failed to think clearly and turn my mike off.  About thirty minutes into a session, I made a particularly awesome and unique kill and said "yes!!!  I am ridiculous!" or some such nonsense, and the response to my feminine voice was IMMIDIATE.  And ugly.  I responded by simply muting my mic and continuing to play in blessed silence.  However, after we finished the round, I was kicked, even though I'd literally uttered less than 6 words and had the highest kill count in the group.  It ruined my day completely, and it brought it home yet again exactly why so many women are unwilling to transcend the boundary and try out a game for themselves.

That's unfortunate. My voice is ambiguous enough to avoid mishaps like yours, but that isn't the point.

More inclusive packaging wouldn't correct that problem in and of itself, but if it draws in more female players, folks will have to choose. Aceept or move on.

[Dave of Canada]

Jumping in but what's wrong with covers which represent something from the game? I'm thinking of the tome-like appearence of the original Baldur's Gates, the wolf emblem representing the original Witcher and the Elder Scrolls game covers.

Don't they--if done well--appeal enough to everyone without making it... "white male looking badass"?

[Battlebloodmage]

Atalanta wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...
I was clarified on the definition, didn't say if I support the use of it.

Apologies then, but I think that if you were aware of the meaning, you probably would have been better served by just leaving it at "it's a slur."

I know next to nothing about anime/manga, so I wasn't aware that it was a "thing" within some communities to use it without the intent of being deragotory. But I've personally only ever heard it used in the nastiest of contexts, directed at real people, so when I see it thrown around as a joke I get super grumpy.

I read some gender-bender manga (The name of the genre), and I would not have done that if I have something against transgender people. I explained the definition right after reading one, so I probably was still in the mindset of the manga community, so it didn't come off as a big deal at the time for me. In the manga community, the "trap" characters are usually very popular, and the fans are fully awared that they weren't born female (Look up Bridget). They are usually not used as a joke but an actual term. I admit I don't have much knowledge of how people perceive it outside the manga community since I don't have much exposure with actual transgender people. I do know that some people get offended with the term though.

[FaWa]

But DA2 and ME3 have both been "White male looking badass"
I'm really tired of it tbh

[Battlebloodmage]

FaWa wrote...

But DA2 and ME3 have both been "White male looking badass"
I'm really tired of it tbh

I'm not a big fan of it either, but I understand the reason from a marketing standpoint. Also, if DA has a non-white protagonist, they need to justify his origin. I do hope the next ME has a non-white protagonist if possible though.

[Blue Gloves]

berelinde wrote...

That's unfortunate. My voice is ambiguous enough to avoid mishaps like yours, but that isn't the point.

More inclusive packaging wouldn't correct that problem in and of itself, but if it draws in more female players, folks will have to choose. Aceept or move on.

Agreed, while I'm not really terribly butt-hurt over having dude-with-gun on most covers, I do feel like it's just another way to perpetuate the straight white male gamer stereotype, and I think it would be a positive and refreshing change to see the female version of a non set protagonist on boxcover art and in marketing.


As an aside:  I want to be clear on one point- I have played with more non-friends in the ME3 miltiplayer than I have in any other game, ever.  While playing ME3 I have never ONCE felt talked down to, coddled or hated on for being a girl, and I've unmuted my mic on several occasions.  As a matter of fact, I made a real life friend when I turned off my mic during a session b/c a guy mentioned the surf out at Chinaman's Hat and we've since met up and caught some waves together.  In general (barring the few trolls that hang out wherever you go), I've found the atmosphere of acceptance in Bioware communities to encouraging, and I tribute the majority of that to the dev's and their espousal of inclusiveness.  (inclusivity? are either of those words?)  So cap's off to the Bioware ohana, and cap's off again for allowing and participating in a discussion like this on your forums.

[Allan Schumacher]

Cleaned up some of the offtopic discussion.

/mod

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 19 décembre 2012 - 05:51 .

[Plaintiff]

Blue Gloves wrote...

berelinde wrote...

That's unfortunate. My voice is ambiguous enough to avoid mishaps like yours, but that isn't the point.

More inclusive packaging wouldn't correct that problem in and of itself, but if it draws in more female players, folks will have to choose. Aceept or move on.

Agreed, while I'm not really terribly butt-hurt over having dude-with-gun on most covers, I do feel like it's just another way to perpetuate the straight white male gamer stereotype, and I think it would be a positive and refreshing change to see the female version of a non set protagonist on boxcover art and in marketing.


As an aside:  I want to be clear on one point- I have played with more non-friends in the ME3 miltiplayer than I have in any other game, ever.  While playing ME3 I have never ONCE felt talked down to, coddled or hated on for being a girl, and I've unmuted my mic on several occasions.  As a matter of fact, I made a real life friend when I turned off my mic during a session b/c a guy mentioned the surf out at Chinaman's Hat and we've since met up and caught some waves together.  In general (barring the few trolls that hang out wherever you go), I've found the atmosphere of acceptance in Bioware communities to encouraging, and I tribute the majority of that to the dev's and their espousal of inclusiveness.  (inclusivity? are either of those words?)  So cap's off to the Bioware ohana, and cap's off again for allowing and participating in a discussion like this on your forums.

Inclusivity is a real word.

I don't really have anything productive to add to the discussion at this time.

[Thrillian]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Jumping in but what's wrong with covers which represent something from the game? I'm thinking of the tome-like appearence of the original Baldur's Gates, the wolf emblem representing the original Witcher and the Elder Scrolls game covers.

Don't they--if done well--appeal enough to everyone without making it... "white male looking badass"?

I'm ok with this as well, but I think that if we have to have the protagonist on the cover, it would be nice if it were the female version this time around.

When I got my copy of ME3 I immediately turned the cover around because "Wow, cool!  An actual badass, capable looking woman on the cover!"

I can guarantee that I have never once looked at a game and thought "Wow, white male looking badass, what a novelty!"