680 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

Just mothballing (I am no marketer and don't spend my time in marketing at all and don't know how the decisions are made), but I'm curious if players exhibit some sort of innate attachment to the character (or maybe identify with the character) when seeing it. Box art is as much to draw attention from the undecided gamer in the store as opposed to being appealing to those that will already buy the game. I think anyways.

???

[Blue Gloves]

Plaintiff wrote...

Inclusivity is a real word.

I don't really have anything productive to add to the discussion at this time.

:lol:That's okay!  I feel much more productive simply knowing that inclusivity is, indeed a word.  Thanks.

[Mr Deathbot]

WHAT'S WITH ALL THESE WOMEN ON MY VIDEO GAMES GRRRR GAMES ARE MEANT FOR MEN AND ARE TO BE MANLY AHHHHHH TESTOSTERONE.

Back on topic I don't think I would care either way whether a man or a woman is on the front of my game as long as the game is good but a woman would be a good change of scenery... as long as it wasn't a woman who looked like a man ugh that would be awkward to say the least. Anyways the point is I don't think we should care about the cover of the game hell the cover of DA:I could be a space walrus riding on a unicycle shooting rainbow lasers out of it's eyes at some monkeys made out of doughnuts and I would still buy the game... as long as the game was good

EDIT: Now I want some doughnuts

Modifié par Mr Deathbot, 19 décembre 2012 - 06:21 .

[Mr Deathbot]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Just mothballing (I am no marketer and don't spend my time in marketing at all and don't know how the decisions are made), but I'm curious if players exhibit some sort of innate attachment to the character (or maybe identify with the character) when seeing it. Box art is as much to draw attention from the undecided gamer in the store as opposed to being appealing to those that will already buy the game. I think anyways.

???

That actually makes some sense, people are probably gonna pay more attention to something that catches their eye and of course something they know might catch their eye...that or something completely out of the ordinary

[Allan Schumacher]

I know we reworked DAO's box art because we were getting very poor impressions with the first one. I actually really like DAO's with the white box (usually stands out on its own), with the sweet red blood dragon on it.

[Harle Cerulean]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Eh. I liked the Sierra Adventure games. My favourites were the Police Quest games, followed by Black Cauldron, but I'm glad those aren't the only types of games that were ever made.

It was a different time especially, where I feel game designers so their relationship with gamers as innately adversarial. That is, I am pretty sure that every time you died in Space Quest II, a game designer somewhere considered it a victory for himself.


Although unfortunately, the King's Quest ones never really appealed to me.

I cut my gaming teeth on Black Cauldron. :lol:And King's Quest III and IV.  My family's first computer monitor was monochrome and we got a colour one specifically so that my sister and I could play those games in colour instead of trying to muddle through them in a few shades of amber.  I never got very far in III, I was like five or six years old and Mannanan or whatever his name was freaked me out whenever he'd appear in a puff of smoke and Game Over me for having incriminating items in my inventory, but I beat IV several times - and I have to say, playing as Rosella?  Probably helped with that.

Probably my most agonizing moment in one of those games was the time I decided to see what would happen if I chose to jump in the cauldron at the witches, before it could get carried off.  Even though logically,t hat should have broken it, of course it didn't, and it was just game over while the Cauldron was carried off.  But the bad part?  I somehow managed to save while in the process of jumping in the cauldron.  Oops.  If your theory of adversarial game development is correct, I made some developer cry from sheer joy.  XD'

Edit: also, the Hitchhiker's Guide text adventure.  Imagine being five and trying to type "buffered analgesic" correctly before your house gets knocked down.  

Modifié par Harle Cerulean, 19 décembre 2012 - 06:26 .

[Mr Deathbot]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I know we reworked DAO's box art because we were getting very poor impressions with the first one. I actually really like DAO's with the white box (usually stands out on its own), with the sweet red blood dragon on it.

Out of curiosity what was it originally?

[Blue Gloves]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Just mothballing (I am no marketer and don't spend my time in marketing at all and don't know how the decisions are made), but I'm curious if players exhibit some sort of innate attachment to the character (or maybe identify with the character) when seeing it. Box art is as much to draw attention from the undecided gamer in the store as opposed to being appealing to those that will already buy the game. I think anyways.

???

Really had to think about the attachment thing, and... I'm unsure.  Maybe?  I definitely flip flopped my ME3 cover the moment I got the game, I also talked two of the local Gamestop clerks into flipping the cover on every used copy they came across, and that is because I felt a real and palpable connection to femShep.  For games like the next in the DA series where the protag isn't set, I'm really not sure about the attachment factor. 
I will say that even though I know not to judge a book (or game) by it's cover, I frequently do, and when a friend reccommended the (apparantly awesome) weirdness of Goichi Suda to me while we were in the Gamestop,  I was so deterred by the cover of Lollipop Chainsaw that I didn't buy it, and now have pretty much zero interest in ever playing it.

[Dave of Canada]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I know we reworked DAO's box art because we were getting very poor impressions with the first one. I actually really like DAO's with the white box (usually stands out on its own), with the sweet red blood dragon on it.

The red dragon motif was great for Origins and the whole "people under the wings" of the second one's box art was amazing as well, I felt it didn't really need Hawke.

Then again, I'm not marketing.

[Mr Deathbot]

Blue Gloves wrote...




Really had to think about the attachment thing, and... I'm unsure.  Maybe?  I definitely flip flopped my ME3 cover the moment I got the game, I also talked two of the local Gamestop clerks into flipping the cover on every used copy they came across, and that is because I felt a real and palpable connection to femShep.  For games like the next in the DA series where the protag isn't set, I'm really not sure about the attachment factor. 
I will say that even though I know not to judge a book (or game) by it's cover, I frequently do, and when a friend reccommended the (apparantly awesome) weirdness of Goichi Suda to me while we were in the Gamestop,  I was so deterred by the cover of Lollipop Chainsaw that I didn't buy it, and now have pretty much zero interest in ever playing it.

   I don't see the big deal in flipping the cover for ME3.... I guess because I can't flip my cover ( If femshep is on front for me then the case is backwards ) Does it really change much besides your just looking at a woman who looks like she wants to rip out your throat rather than a guy who wants to rip out your throat? Like I said though I probably don't see the charm in it because I don't have a cover to flip.

Modifié par Mr Deathbot, 19 décembre 2012 - 06:37 .

[Firky]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

 I never got very far in III, I was like five or six years old and Mannanan or whatever his name was freaked me out whenever he'd appear in a puff of smoke and Game Over me for having incriminating items in my inventory,

You should totally play this. http://www.agdintera...t/overview.html One of the gameplay tweaks is a Manannan timer. And the graphics/music etc have been given a polish.

Also. The Black Cauldron. I recall talking about that with my (female) year 2 teacher. It never occurred to me that her being female and having played it was a thing until exactly now ...

Edit: Also - re saving over death. I remember, in KQ2, those poisoned brambles. I didn't know there was a magic potion, or whatever made you immune, so I spent ages reloading and walking through to the end of the maze. I got to the end and I was so excited I loaded instead of saved. (So I had to do it again. Or, more accurately, my dad did because he found me a crying mess. I'd totally forgotten about that,) But. KQ5 is surely the last word on failstates. Eat the pie? Sure.

Modifié par Firky, 19 décembre 2012 - 07:12 .

[Blue Gloves]

Mr Deathbot wrote...
   I don't see the big deal in flipping the cover for ME3.... I guess because I can't flip my cover ( If femshep is on front for me then the case is backwards ) Does it really change much besides your just looking at a woman who looks like she wants to rip out your throat rather than a guy who wants to rip out your throat? Like I said though I probably don't see the charm in it because I don't have a cover to flip.

Nope, it pretty much changes nothing but just looking at a woman who looks like she wants to rip out your throat rather than a guy who wants to rip out your throat, but I have loved and played a ridiculous number of femSheps in the past 5 years and so to me, she is Mass Effect.  It tickled me to both see a tough, non sexualized and yet clearly feminine woman on a video game cover and to see that maybe this was also the case for other fans as well, and perhaps that's why Bioware gave her the extra attention and a place on the alternate cover.

[Raydiva]

Aside from the few side tracks, I'm enjoying this discussion of gaming and gal gamers. Aaaaand I might be adding a side track of my own with this comment and I do apologize.

I've been playing video games since the days of Pong (yes I am most likely one of the oldest female gamers here so 'girl-gamer' doesn't really fit). From my experience, games were at first mainly gender neutral. Even when gender was brought up, it was mainly to expand on a series (ie Pac-Man, Ms. Pac-Man).

When I went to the Arcade or played the games while parent was grocery shopping, no one made a big deal about a girl playing video games. I was just a kid playing a game. Even in school, both both boys and girls either had or wanted Pac-Man watches. At home we had an Atari (before the game crash) and myself, Mother, two sisters and an aunt would play. The male members of the family considered it a kids toy and went out to do 'manly' stuff (ie sit around BBQ pit and drink beer).

It wasn't until my teen years, when I would baby-sit my nephew (and play on his Nintendo) that the I heard, 'Why are you playing video games? You're a girl!' This was from my nephew. The same nephew I would play baseball and dodge ball with.

I'm curious as to when and how this whole 'video games are for boys' idea started? Its not like you need upper body strength to press buttons or move a joystick.

As for covers usually showing a guy, its due to the general lack of imagination in marketing. They want to go for the 'sure-thing' and for some strange reason that's a blank face looking male holding a weapon. It would be nice for some different covers, (ie female in normal pose, face of the enemy, etc) but it will not change the game itself.

As for games having both male and female heroes, the gaming industry is improving. Not as fast as some of may like, but it is improving. At least now it doesn't freak gamers out when you find out the hero you were playing as was actually a woman in a space suit. (I still get a laugh at the look that was on my nephew's face when Samus removed her helmet at the end of the first game).

[Blue Gloves]

Also- curse you deathbot! Now I also want doughnuts.

[Blue Gloves]

Raydiva wrote...
 (I still get a laugh at the look that was on my nephew's face when Samus removed her helmet at the end of the first game).

Still one of my favorite gaming moments ever.  I was kid, and it was AWESOME to see that head of blonde hair come out of that helmet!  The memory's been somewhat tainted by The Other M travesty, but still...

[Atalanta]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Just mothballing (I am no marketer and don't spend my time in marketing at all and don't know how the decisions are made), but I'm curious if players exhibit some sort of innate attachment to the character (or maybe identify with the character) when seeing it. Box art is as much to draw attention from the undecided gamer in the store as opposed to being appealing to those that will already buy the game. I think anyways.

???

Seeing Morrigan on the box art was really important for me because I initially thought she was a playable character. Those days I could only afford maybe 1-2 new games at full price each year (that year I had already bought Mirror's Edge, I think), and so I had to really "make it count" on my foray into Gamestop.



But anyway, I saw Morrigan in the corner, and she looked broody and mysterious, and I guess you could say that I did get attached to her right then. If the box art for Origins had been like the art from DA II, I probably wouldn't have even picked it up and read the back of it. And then I wouldn't have played Origins, or have gotten interested enough in BioWare to look up the other games ya'll made, or bought the Mass Effect games, or DA 2.

[berelinde]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Just mothballing (I am no marketer and don't spend my time in marketing at all and don't know how the decisions are made), but I'm curious if players exhibit some sort of innate attachment to the character (or maybe identify with the character) when seeing it. Box art is as much to draw attention from the undecided gamer in the store as opposed to being appealing to those that will already buy the game. I think anyways.

???

One of the gentlemen who frequents the Cullen thread usually bases his first playthrough on the protagonist featured in the promotional material. In DA:O, he played a male character who romanced Morrigan and in DA2, he played a male character who romanced Isabela. Rather than speak for him, please allow me to link his explanation here.

Personally, I have yet to identify with the characters featured on the box art. Considering my gender, that would be difficult.  Yes, I know, ME3 featured an iconic female Shepherd, but I'm not particularly interested in sci-fi and don't play sci-fi games. I did play through DA2 with a *lot* of male mages, but none of them had much in common with the guy on the box. I'd definitely be interested in trying a protagonist based on the DA3 marketing, if it features a female lead. I'd like to try Danny Boy's approach to character creation and see if it works for me.

[Mr Deathbot]

Blue Gloves wrote...

Mr Deathbot wrote...
   I don't see the big deal in flipping the cover for ME3.... I guess because I can't flip my cover ( If femshep is on front for me then the case is backwards ) Does it really change much besides your just looking at a woman who looks like she wants to rip out your throat rather than a guy who wants to rip out your throat? Like I said though I probably don't see the charm in it because I don't have a cover to flip.

Nope, it pretty much changes nothing but just looking at a woman who looks like she wants to rip out your throat rather than a guy who wants to rip out your throat, but I have loved and played a ridiculous number of femSheps in the past 5 years and so to me, she is Mass Effect.  It tickled me to both see a tough, non sexualized and yet clearly feminine woman on a video game cover and to see that maybe this was also the case for other fans as well, and perhaps that's why Bioware gave her the extra attention and a place on the alternate cover.

I suppose that's understandable. But that few seconds you were switching covers were a few seconds you could've been doing something productive

Modifié par Mr Deathbot, 19 décembre 2012 - 06:59 .

[Boiny Bunny]

Blue Gloves wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

I don't think this is necessarily evidence that there are an equal amount of female gamers as male ones, but I can honestly say that though I'm a pretty obnoxiously extroverted type of girl, I often keep my gaming to myself in conversation and have since junior high school (back in the 90's).

Reasons:
1.) Girls and guys both often seem to perceive that girl-gaming is intended to be nerd-sexy. That's not why I game, and "that's hot" isn't the response I've ever wanted when mentioning my favorite hobby.
2.) In a room full of guys who are gaming, a girl who speaks up and says "I'd like to play" is apt to feel awkward barging into the "boys' club" (eye-rolling ensues)
3.) Even when gaming online, I often choose not to reveal that I'm a woman and/or refuse to use a mic because
          - my performance will be scrutinized in a way it wouldn't if I were a man
          - I will be flirted with
          - I will be coddled or treated as if I'm a beginner that needs extra protection
          - (some) male gamers will be incredibly angry to be beaten by me because of my gender
          - I have actually been kicked before. Just for speaking into a mic, which reveals that I'm female

So while the numbers may not be equal, they may be higher than a lot of guys realize since maybe girls don't speak up about it.

So I can't say that I'm super offended by the way that advertisers appeal to male gamers, but I have learned from experience that I'm often not treated as an equal or welcome member of the gaming community.
Which sucks, because I love gaming as much as anyone. And I'm good, dammit. 

You are not alone my friend!  I very, very rarely ever play with anyone that isn't on my friend list, but just last week I had a little time off and thought- "Gee, I'd really love to go crazy and blow up some pixels today, even though it's the middle of the week!  Woohoo!"  I was so excited to have a few hours off while the kiddo was in school and the house was actually already spotless (for a change) that I failed to think clearly and turn my mike off.  About thirty minutes into a session, I made a particularly awesome and unique kill and said "yes!!!  I am ridiculous!" or some such nonsense, and the response to my feminine voice was IMMEDIATE.  And ugly.  I responded by simply muting my mic and continuing to play in blessed silence.  However, after we finished the round, I was kicked, even though I'd literally uttered less than 6 words and had the highest kill count in the group.  It ruined my day completely, and it brought it home yet again exactly why so many women are unwilling to transcend the boundary and try out a game for themselves.

Thanks for sharing - reading your story brings back feelings of profound disappointment for what seems to be the vast majority of the modern-age gaming community.  Personally, I tend to avoid multiplayer games altogether nowadays, especially FPS games (e.g. CoD, Halo), as they seem to draw the most immature crowds together.  Which is a shame - I used to very much enjoy multiplayer games in my youth (Baldurs Gate as an excellent example).

I recall a good few years ago, I became so frustrated with the preconceptions associated with gender that I deleted my old BSN account, and created a new one with the express purpose of not revealing my gender to anybody, and avoiding the trouble that went with it.  At the time (pre ME1-release), the Asari icon seemed appropriate (given their lack of 'genders'), though turned out to be a mistake, as many would simply (incorrectly) assume that I was female - as you can tell, I've given up at this point.

At any rate, to address the topic at hand, IMO Dragon Age is best described as 'inclusive'.  It attempts to offer equality to every type of person that might play it, particularly when considering gender and sexual orientation.

Does this make it a game targetted specifically at females, to the exclusion of males?  No, of course not!  As somebody very rightly pointed out on the first page of this thread, there is a big difference between being 'not blatantly sexist' and female-targetted.  All that comes to mind when reading through this thread is 'male priviledge' (for anybody familiar with the term). 

Modifié par Boiny Bunny, 19 décembre 2012 - 07:05 .

[Mr Deathbot]

Blue Gloves wrote...

Also- curse you deathbot! Now I also want doughnuts.

HA HA even though I have a strong craving for doughnuts atleast I know others share my pain

[Mr Deathbot]

I just realized I haven't addressed all issues this topic presents. Anyways I doubt Dragon Age is focused more towards women, it's probably directed at both genders A: I think women are just as much into running around and cutting people's heads off as men are (actually when I put it that way it's a bit disconcerting) B: You could argue that the romances are played towards the female crowd but I think they're like that for a more Role Playing aspect and to more immerse people in the experience... honestly though just show me a pair of boobs and that's the most I need out of a game's relationship... boobs are great (now that I think about it I probably shouldn't have said that on this of all threads)

EDIT: In all seriousness though I do believe that Bioware intended DA to let both genders play it.

Modifié par Mr Deathbot, 19 décembre 2012 - 07:17 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Samus was awsome in Metroid, and also my favorite character on Super Smash Bros. well her and Falcon. I used to have a Killer strategy, shield roll, charge the fireball and BANG! awawawawawa BYE YOSHI lol. (Someone always picked Yoshi and I hated Yoshi's voice)

[Kidd]

^But Yoshi's so darn cuuuute ;_;

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The thing about cover art is that it's often reflective of the media campaign at large. If we end up putting a woman on the box, it also probably means we're featuring the female in other aspects of marketing as well. At least, that's the way I've usually seen it with BioWare's titles since at least Mass Effect.

Makes sense. If I saw a totally awesome commercial for a videogame at home yet can't remember the name, it'd sure help a lot if the boxart looked very similar to what I saw on TV.

FaWa wrote...

Holy **** I just looked again and there are people in the dragon WTF???

Prepare to have your mind blown further then. The blood that trickles from the wings of the dragon on the cover of DA2 create silhouettes of lots of characters. Took me well until after the game was released until I noticed ^^

Blue Gloves wrote...

While playing ME3 I have never ONCE felt talked down to, coddled or hated on for being a girl, and I've unmuted my mic on several occasions. 

This is definitely true. Left4Dead? First you're a terrible n00b for not using the mic, and once you do any number of things happens. Mass Effect 3? The game just... goes on. Never had a problem, ever.

I mean, the first time I random'd one of those farming geth matches on Firebase White, I had no idea what was going on and tried to open up an escape route for what I assumed was an inexperienced group. Cue me dying and completely breaking formation when I'm the first and only person out of cover. Yet there wasn't even any complaints about me ruining the game (not even gender-neutral ones!), instead one of the guys just inquired if this is the first time I played "one of these games" - and obviously it was. Cue drama free explanation.

Goddamn I love this company and its fans. <3

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I know we reworked DAO's box art because we were getting very poor impressions with the first one. I actually really like DAO's with the white box (usually stands out on its own), with the sweet red blood dragon on it.

What did the first cover look like?

Mr Deathbot wrote...

I suppose that's understandable. But that few seconds you were switching covers were a few seconds you could've been doing something productive 

What could possibly be more productive? Heck, when I was at Toys 'R Us last month, I flipped the cover of a discounted copy they had in there ^^

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 19 décembre 2012 - 07:22 .

[Mr Deathbot]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Mr Deathbot wrote...

I suppose that's understandable. But that few seconds you were switching covers were a few seconds you could've been doing something productive 

What could possibly be more productive? Heck, when I was at Toys 'R Us last month, I flipped the cover of a discounted copy they had in there ^^

You know what you could've done that was more productive with that few seconds?... drawing a moustache and a top hot on shepard he would've looked very classy

[Maria Caliban]

Mr Deathbot wrote...
I suppose that's understandable. But that few seconds you were switching covers were a few seconds you could've been doing something productive

That few seconds you wrote out this post were a few seconds you could've been doing something productive.