680 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr Deathbot]

FreshIstay wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...
If i posed as a Female wouldnt you treat me like a Female?

If I posed as a Male wouldn't you treat me like a Male?

Or are you saying you want Men to treat you like a Man, or that you dont want to be treated like a Female by Men?

If you posed as female, I'd treat you like a person.

If you posed as male, I'd treat you like a person.

And I'd like to be treated like a person in return.

Come On' Maria...there was a context to those word's, I believe in mutual respect as well.

I told you, you dug yourself into a hole

[Khayness]

Mr Deathbot wrote...

Wasn't this thread originally about how DA supposedly favors women

Gender politics on BSN is the leading cause of popcorn intake increase.

[Commander Kurt]

FreshIstay wrote...

The Maker really? 

There is prominent female nobility equal to or greater than male's, Qunari is intended to be perceived as 50/50 but if your telling me All the Men are at War while the Ari-Qun (female) is at home making all the descisions for everyone who is not a soilder....what are you really saying?

The Viscount  You must have missed the Codex on how Dumar got his power, and the part of the game where Meridith rule's.

Anora is respected by all of the noble's in Fereldan and other countries Empress Celene called her "a rose among brambles"  Her codex cleary state's she was the one who really governed Fereldan, not Cailin.

Alistair As a Male, if find him to be a wuss, My PC had to endure him complain about his responsiblities, Im not the type of person who feel's I should have to encourage you to do your duty or listen to you cry about how you feel, It's not my responsiblity to "Harden" you,  and I have yet to see anything Integral in his plot, but I probably wont because in my cannon he's a drunk.


Ander's The dude blew up a chantry. He will likely go down in history similar to Osama, thats nothing to be proud of.


Isabela stole a relic that got Hawke involved with the Arishok, Leilana is the right hand of the divine, Morrigan is pretty cleary involved in next game in a major way, Wynne and Shale were in Asunder. Merrill and that Eluvian.

Regardless, In term's of power structure, there is really nothing equal about it in Thedas, Female's inhabit the postions of power, and THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. but it's not equal. neither does it make me personally  believe that the game is more for women then men.

Are you serious?

1. The Maker. Yes? What about the Maker? Husband to one of your examples, Andraste. Is your argument that she is more powerful?

2. No, there is not female nobility equal to or greater than male's. The Landsmeet was a total sausage fest, 8 voting nobles and one of them (a bann) is female. None of the Teyrns (both men, naturally) voted for obvious reasons.

3. Are you saying that because the Ariqun is, at this point in time, a woman the qunari are ruled by women? Is the current Ariqun even female that we know of?

4. The Vicecount. Is a powerful male. Yes, Meredith is the one ruling, much like Loghain is the one ruling after Cailans demise in Ferelden.

5. Anora. She is only powerful because her husband is a man-child, you do realize this? As soon as he dies her father steps in, assuming the position of Regent. She is also easily disposed of in favour of a half-blood who knows nothing of ruling a country. To spell it out for you; the only power she ever had was because her husband allowed for her to have it. This is made abundantly clear in the game, and doesn't really scream grrl power!

6. You don't see anything integral to the plot in Alistairs story? Are you also holding your hands over your ears and chanting "lalalalalalalalalala"?

7. Anders is not integral to the plot but Isabella is. Uh. Your powers of logic are... humbling.

[Mr Deathbot]

Khayness wrote...

Mr Deathbot wrote...

Wasn't this thread originally about how DA supposedly favors women

Gender politics on BSN is the leading cause of popcorn intake increase.

hmmm It is quite entertaining

[Mr Deathbot]

Commander Kurt wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

The Maker really? 

There is prominent female nobility equal to or greater than male's, Qunari is intended to be perceived as 50/50 but if your telling me All the Men are at War while the Ari-Qun (female) is at home making all the descisions for everyone who is not a soilder....what are you really saying?

The Viscount  You must have missed the Codex on how Dumar got his power, and the part of the game where Meridith rule's.

Anora is respected by all of the noble's in Fereldan and other countries Empress Celene called her "a rose among brambles"  Her codex cleary state's she was the one who really governed Fereldan, not Cailin.

Alistair As a Male, if find him to be a wuss, My PC had to endure him complain about his responsiblities, Im not the type of person who feel's I should have to encourage you to do your duty or listen to you cry about how you feel, It's not my responsiblity to "Harden" you,  and I have yet to see anything Integral in his plot, but I probably wont because in my cannon he's a drunk.


Ander's The dude blew up a chantry. He will likely go down in history similar to Osama, thats nothing to be proud of.


Isabela stole a relic that got Hawke involved with the Arishok, Leilana is the right hand of the divine, Morrigan is pretty cleary involved in next game in a major way, Wynne and Shale were in Asunder. Merrill and that Eluvian.

Regardless, In term's of power structure, there is really nothing equal about it in Thedas, Female's inhabit the postions of power, and THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. but it's not equal. neither does it make me personally  believe that the game is more for women then men.

Are you serious?

1. The Maker. Yes? What about the Maker? Husband to one of your examples, Andraste. Is your argument that she is more powerful?

2. No, there is not female nobility equal to or greater than male's. The Landsmeet was a total sausage fest, 8 voting nobles and one of them (a bann) is female. None of the Teyrns (both men, naturally) voted for obvious reasons.

3. Are you saying that because the Ariqun is, at this point in time, a woman the qunari are ruled by women? Is the current Ariqun even female that we know of?

4. The Vicecount. Is a powerful male. Yes, Meredith is the one ruling, much like Loghain is the one ruling after Cailans demise in Ferelden.

5. Anora. She is only powerful because her husband is a man-child, you do realize this? As soon as he dies her father steps in, assuming the position of Regent. She is also easily disposed of in favour of a half-blood who knows nothing of ruling a country. To spell it out for you; the only power she ever had was because her husband allowed for her to have it. This is made abundantly clear in the game, and doesn't really scream grrl power!

6. You don't see anything integral to the plot in Alistairs story? Are you also holding your hands over your ears and chanting "lalalalalalalalalala"?

7. Anders is not integral to the plot but Isabella is. Uh. Your powers of logic are... humbling.

Are we still on this? can we agree that I won the argument with king calenhad??

[Gazardiel]

FreshIstay wrote...

For the life of me I cant understand why Female's here think Male=Normal Gaming Experience in Multiplayer, and what other variation's of social life has that thought leaked into and how harmful is it, because if Male = Normal, that inherently means Female=Abnormal.....I cant understand why posing as Male means a better experience.

1) I'm emphasizing that it's not so much "normal" but "being left alone to play the game as God intended" that is important.   I paid the money for the game just like anyone else and deserve to be able to enjoy the game.

Example: Way back in the days of Diablo I and Battlenet (2001-ish), I decided to try multiplayer with my Rogue (a female character - I like played archer-types and thought nothing of the female part).  I got into a dungeon with some person and we went through it.  Partway through, I tried to trade him for some loot, and he refused.  No biggie.  Then we got to talking, and he asked the dreaded question: "So r u a guy or a grl?"  Foolish me, I answered truthfully.  Then he asked how old. I told him.  He goes, "LOL.  Too old for me. "  And from then on, the entire experience changed - he opened doors for me and went, "After you " and at the end GAVE me the item I had wanted to trade for.

I was lucky in that nothing "bad" happened to me. But it made it clear that other players will completely change how they interact with you (dragging in meatspace norms, for example) when all I want when I'm gaming is to play the damn game and take a break from all that BS.  I don't go online to get asked out on dates, I don't go online to have people speculate on my looks, yet there are some male gamers who think that simply by being online, a female is asking for this.

This also emphasizes the "normal" issue: actually, "male" is often considered "normal" or "default."  How was PacMan animated vs. Ms. PacMan?  Ms. PacMan was PacMan with a bow (and sometimes eyelashes and lipstick).  Prior to the revelation of my offline plumbing, the other gamer treated me as a normal gamer, but afterwards, he acted abnormally for the gaming environment.  Look at language: "mankind" and "men" can be used to address women, but if a woman says, "I'm a man", everyone gets weird.  Same with "God" - God is supposed to be gender-neutral, but why does everyone get upset when you say "Goddess"?  There are visual and linguistics ways that define male as normal/neutral and female as abnormal.  What a genderbending female player may want (not speaking for all here, just me and those I know) is to take a break from being treated as abnormal and to get to just be instead.

2) Much of female social norms contradict the norms of gaming.  In addition to threats of sexual assault that are seen on FatUglyor****ty.com, a lot of remarks are about "go to the kitchen and make me a sammich" or "you should have my babies" - those are inherently gendered judgments about the players that most of those female players probably have to deal with IRL.  Even for gamers who enjoy feminine social roles IRL, it is nice to take a break and not have to re-enact them in what is supposed to be a neutral environment.  You can also see cases where the female player beat the male player fair and square, but then was accused of cheating, because there is no way a female could be better than a male.

Psychologically, there are a lot of dynamics at play.  In studies of genderbending avatars, there are guys who intentionally play female avatars to further humiliate other male players when they beat them - "You were beaten by a girl." 

3) Roles.  This is more in MMOs that have standardized Tank-Healer-DPS roles.  In WoW, there is a running joke that you recruit your girlfriend into WoW to be your "pocket healer" - women are naturally better healers because they're nurturing and give birth to babies, see?  Oh, and you can entice her in by letting her roll a pretty elf girl who can buy dresses and cute pets!   There are guys on the forums who say that they have trouble seeing a female character Tank, or in knowing that a female player is Tanking, because "Women shouldn't be getting hit and I feel like I need to protect her!" 

4) The Siren's Song.  There are many many cases where a female player speaks up on Vent for the first time and is blamed for wiping the raid because she "distracted" everyone.  Female players are accused of being drama queens and attention ****s simply for trying to be friendly on voice chat because their seductive voices are apparently too traumatic for the male players to hear while concentrating on playing.  Guilds have banned female players because they think they cause trouble (again, it takes two to tango).  Also, once word gets out that you're female, you become the default "Guild Counselor" to whom everyone comes with your problems, meaning that when you log on, you're bogged down by people talking to you (and of course, if you turn them down, you're called ****y).  I had a harder time in raids because I was a "silent partner", but I paid attention and didn't take on any large roles that needed me to talk.

All of these are examples where the only factor that led to a change in how the player was treated was because other players now had irrelevant information about her plumbing in meatspace and chose to impose expectations and interactions upon her that kept her from being able to play the game like other people.

I don't intend to indict the entire gamer community in this - I just wanted to give examples of how things drastically have changed for a lot of female gamers when others decided that gender/sex was more important than gaming, to the point that female gamers would have to take measures to allow themselves a normal gaming experience.  And I have been very pleased to see a lot of progress towards less hostility overall and more vocal pushback by many gamers against this.  This is something that takes a lot of "stepping into someone else's shoes" if you've never experienced the types of situations I list here, and I understand and am happy that many gamers never have to deal with this. But I hope that discussions like the one on this thread can help inform about experiences different from those one may have.

TL:DR - XKCD says it well.

(Edit: ah, I'm new to the censorship standards here.  No offense intended; I was intending to quote/reference what people say and not use those words against anyone.  I hope this didn't anger any mods)

Modifié par Gazardiel, 19 décembre 2012 - 11:34 .

[Commander Kurt]

Mr Deathbot won the argument. Frankly, I'm exhausted.

[Mr Deathbot]

Commander Kurt wrote...

Mr Deathbot won the argument. Frankly, I'm exhausted.

YEAHHHHHHH I WON WOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Mr Deathbot]

Gazardiel wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

For the life of me I cant understand why Female's here think Male=Normal Gaming Experience in Multiplayer, and what other variation's of social life has that thought leaked into and how harmful is it, because if Male = Normal, that inherently means Female=Abnormal.....I cant understand why posing as Male means a better experience.

1) I'm emphasizing that it's not so much "normal" but "being left alone to play the game as God intended" that is important.   I paid the money for the game just like anyone else and deserve to be able to enjoy the game.

Example: Way back in the days of Diablo I and Battlenet (2001-ish), I decided to try multiplayer with my Rogue (a female character - I like played archer-types and thought nothing of the female part).  I got into a dungeon with some person and we went through it.  Partway through, I tried to trade him for some loot, and he refused.  No biggie.  Then we got to talking, and he asked the dreaded question: "So r u a guy or a grl?"  Foolish me, I answered truthfully.  Then he asked how old. I told him.  He goes, "LOL.  Too old for me. "  And from then on, the entire experience changed - he opened doors for me and went, "After you " and at the end GAVE me the item I had wanted to trade for.

I was lucky in that nothing "bad" happened to me. But it made it clear that other players will completely change how they interact with you (dragging in meatspace norms, for example) when all I want when I'm gaming is to play the damn game and take a break from all that BS.  I don't go online to get asked out on dates, I don't go online to have people speculate on my looks, yet there are some male gamers who think that simply by being online, a female is asking for this.

This also emphasizes the "normal" issue: actually, "male" is often considered "normal" or "default."  How was PacMan animated vs. Ms. PacMan?  Ms. PacMan was PacMan with a bow (and sometimes eyelashes and lipstick).  Prior to the revelation of my offline plumbing, the other gamer treated me as a normal gamer, but afterwards, he acted abnormally for the gaming environment.  Look at language: "mankind" and "men" can be used to address women, but if a woman says, "I'm a man", everyone gets weird.  Same with "God" - God is supposed to be gender-neutral, but why does everyone get upset when you say "Goddess"?  There are visual and linguistics ways that define male as normal/neutral and female as abnormal.  What a genderbending female player may want (not speaking for all here, just me and those I know) is to take a break from being treated as abnormal and to get to just be instead.

2) Much of female social norms contradict the norms of gaming.  In addition to threats of sexual assault that are seen on FatUglyor****ty.com, a lot of remarks are about "go to the kitchen and make me a sammich" or "you should have my babies" - those are inherently gendered judgments about the players that most of those female players probably have to deal with IRL.  Even for gamers who enjoy feminine social roles IRL, it is nice to take a break and not have to re-enact them in what is supposed to be a neutral environment.  You can also see cases where the female player beat the male player fair and square, but then was accused of cheating, because there is no way a female could be better than a male.

Psychologically, there are a lot of dynamics at play.  In studies of genderbending avatars, there are guys who intentionally play female avatars to further humiliate other male players when they beat them - "You were beaten by a girl." 

3) Roles.  This is more in MMOs that have standardized Tank-Healer-DPS roles.  In WoW, there is a running joke that you recruit your girlfriend into WoW to be your "pocket healer" - women are naturally better healers because they're nurturing and give birth to babies, see?  Oh, and you can entice her in by letting her roll a pretty elf girl who can buy dresses and cute pets!   There are guys on the forums who say that they have trouble seeing a female character Tank, or in knowing that a female player is Tanking, because "Women shouldn't be getting hit and I feel like I need to protect her!" 

4) The Siren's Song.  There are many many cases where a female player speaks up on Vent for the first time and is blamed for wiping the raid because she "distracted" everyone.  Female players are accused of being drama queens and attention ****s simply for trying to be friendly on voice chat because their seductive voices are apparently too traumatic for the male players to hear while concentrating on playing.  Guilds have banned female players because they think they cause trouble (again, it takes two to tango).  Also, once word gets out that you're female, you become the default "Guild Counselor" to whom everyone comes with your problems, meaning that when you log on, you're bogged down by people talking to you (and of course, if you turn them down, you're called ****y).  I had a harder time in raids because I was a "silent partner", but I paid attention and didn't take on any large roles that needed me to talk.

All of these are examples where the only factor that led to a change in how the player was treated was because other players now had irrelevant information about her plumbing in meatspace and chose to impose expectations and interactions upon her that kept her from being able to play the game like other people.

I don't intend to indict the entire gamer community in this - I just wanted to give examples of how things drastically have changed for a lot of female gamers when others decided that gender/sex was more important than gaming, to the point that female gamers would have to take measures to allow themselves a normal gaming experience.  And I have been very pleased to see a lot of progress towards less hostility overall and more vocal pushback by many gamers against this.  This is something that takes a lot of "stepping into someone else's shoes" if you've never experienced the types of situations I list here, and I understand and am happy that many gamers never have to deal with this. But I hope that discussions like the one on this thread can help inform about experiences different from those one may have.

TL:DR - XKCD says it well.

(Edit: ah, I'm new to the censorship standards here.  No offense intended; I was intending to quote/reference what people say and not use those words against anyone.  I hope this didn't anger any mods)

Considering I've been up for nearly 24 hours don't mind me if my response is a bit wimpy, but I think any guy who acts like that to a woman online is just upset he can't get any in real life.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Hey, at least we got an awesome female tank companion in DA2, who incidentally could punch a darkspawn in the face until it died.

I thought girls would only be permitted as sexy rogues and seductive mages forever, unless they were kitted out with a chainmail bra and hair extensions.

So, you know. Baby steps. Bioware isn't obligated to speak for gender equality in a fantasy world, but I think they're doing ok compared to some other games out there.

[AlexanderCousland]

Are you saying that because the Ariqun is, at this point in time, a woman the qunari are ruled by women? Is the current Ariqun even female that we know of?

The Ari-Qun is alway's Female, that is a Female role inside the Qun. The Qunari are 3 bodies in One, If i said Qunari are ruled by Women the Dev's would quickly correct me, However, In my own mind, If Men are only allowed in the Military, and the Ari-Qun is considered the Mind, and the rest the Body....I personally take that as Female's are the brain's Men are the Safekeeper's.

Anora. She is only powerful because her husband is a man-child, you do realize this? As soon as he dies her father steps in, assuming the position of Regent. She is also easily disposed of in favour of a half-blood who knows nothing of ruling a country. To spell it out for you; the only power she ever had was because her husband allowed for her to have it. This is made abundantly clear in the game, and doesn't really scream grrl power!

 
Yes I realize her husband is a Man-Child that's kind of my point.  Anora was still going to rule Fereldan if  Lohgain won his war he will  tell you this, He was just in-charge of the Military. Understand this, she is only easily disposed if YOUR WARDEN chose that, the Landsmeet side's with the Warden not Alistair or Anora, make no mistake about it. 

 You don't see anything integral to the plot in Alistairs story? Are you also holding your hands over your ears and chanting "lalalalalalalalalala"?

Alistair is not King in my cannon, and I personally believe Maric had three sons, if your talking about the whole "Alistair Storm Born Targaryen" rip-off.

Anders is not integral to the plot but Isabella is. Uh. Your powers of logic are... humbling.

Isabela's plot is better written then any male companion in game besides Ander's, that's was the orginal point, remember?, I was pointing out how many female's are integral to the overall plot as opposed to male's.

Im talking about character's with Poltical Status or Character's that are Renowned, not some Rebel Radical Abomination Mage Warden who cannot be influenced at all, That dude is like Osama to me.

[Kidd]

FreshIstay wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Please, I'm sure adult women are perfectly capable of noticing if the atmosphere changes once their gender gets known.

I AGREE, but let's not pretend that it doesnt go both way's.

Men pose as women online to not hear gendered slurs, be patronised against, get requests (or demands) of sexual nature and to get other players to focus on the game instead of what's between people's legs? I suppose it may happen somewhere, sometimes, but I sure haven't ever heard of it.

Cause you know, when I've been online with a gender neutral name and people assume I'm a man, I've never had any of that happen to me. Ever. I know that's just my own experiences as a singular person, but I doubt it's out of the norm.

FreshIstay wrote...

Well, Female's do have that "Respect me as a Woman" thing, and the "There is certain thing's you shouldn't say to me as a Woman thing"  and also the "You can find me attractive, and it's okay to let me know it, but make sure you do it right when you let me know" thing....so...Id assume the atmosphere would change in how gender's interact with one another. but eh....this is getting confusing.

I'm not sure what most of this means. I'd expect you to respect me like a human being, and I'd expect you to do as much to other men as well. As in, if you're going to say I'm attractive, yeah I'd prefer if you do it in a way that's not creepy. Just like a guy would certainly prefer if you did it in a way that wasn't creepy. That's not a gendered exchange.

The only meaning I can conjure in my head of "respect me as a woman" would be to, you know, not forget that I'm a woman. Just like I'd assume you respect me as somebody with a pony avatar.

If you're talking about those few benefits women used to get due to them being the weaker gender, such as having dates paid for and having doors opened, then meh. I've never asked for that. I'm Swedish and I get my own welfare checks.

[Mr Deathbot]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Hey, at least we got an awesome female tank companion in DA2, who incidentally could punch a darkspawn in the face until it died.

I thought girls would only be permitted as sexy rogues and seductive mages forever, unless they were kitted out with a chainmail bra and hair extensions.

So, you know. Baby steps. Bioware isn't obligated to speak for gender equality in a fantasy world, but I think they're doing ok compared to some other games out there.

Aveline scares me

[Mr Deathbot]

FreshIstay wrote...

Are you saying that because the Ariqun is, at this point in time, a woman the qunari are ruled by women? Is the current Ariqun even female that we know of?

The Ari-Qun is alway's Female, that is a Female role inside the Qun. The Qunari are 3 bodies in One, If i said Qunari are ruled by Women the Dev's would quickly correct me, However, In my own mind, If Men are only allowed in the Military, and the Ari-Qun is considered the Mind, and the rest the Body....I personally take that as Female's are the brain's Men are the Safekeeper's.

Anora. She is only powerful because her husband is a man-child, you do realize this? As soon as he dies her father steps in, assuming the position of Regent. She is also easily disposed of in favour of a half-blood who knows nothing of ruling a country. To spell it out for you; the only power she ever had was because her husband allowed for her to have it. This is made abundantly clear in the game, and doesn't really scream grrl power!

 
Yes I realize her husband is a Man-Child that's kind of my point.  Anora was still going to rule Fereldan if  Lohgain won his war he will  tell you this, He was just in-charge of the Military. Understand this, she is only easily disposed if YOUR WARDEN chose that, the Landsmeet side's with the Warden not Alistair or Anora, make no mistake about it. 

 You don't see anything integral to the plot in Alistairs story? Are you also holding your hands over your ears and chanting "lalalalalalalalalala"?

Alistair is not King in my cannon, and I personally believe Maric had three sons, if your talking about the whole "Alistair Storm Born Targaryen" rip-off.

Anders is not integral to the plot but Isabella is. Uh. Your powers of logic are... humbling.

Isabela's plot is better written then any male companion in game besides Ander's, that's was the orginal point, remember?, I was pointing out how many female's are integral to the overall plot as opposed to male's.

Im talking about character's with Poltical Status or Character's that are Renowned, not some Rebel Radical Abomination Mage Warden who cannot be influenced at all, That dude is like Osama to me.

HEY STOP THIS I ALREADY WON 

[Gazardiel]

Mr Deathbot wrote...

Considering I've been up for nearly 24 hours don't mind me if my response is a bit wimpy, but I think any guy who acts like that to a woman online is just upset he can't get any in real life.

Better you say it than me.  As I said, I am so glad to come back to gaming forums after a several year hiatus to see that things are a LOT better than I remember, and I'm especially impressed with the community here. 

Mr Deathbot wrote...

Aveline scares me

I cracked up the first time I saw the nickname "Ms. Man-Jaw" used.  I kind of love how she absolutely ignores all attempts to flirt with her (did it on my Male Hawke and it was a bit deflating for my virtual male-ego).

But seriously, get some sleep!

Modifié par Gazardiel, 19 décembre 2012 - 11:46 .

[Mr Deathbot]

Gazardiel wrote...

Mr Deathbot wrote...

Considering I've been up for nearly 24 hours don't mind me if my response is a bit wimpy, but I think any guy who acts like that to a woman online is just upset he can't get any in real life.

Better you say it than me.  As I said, I am so glad to come back to gaming forums after a several year hiatus to see that things are a LOT better than I remember, and I'm especially impressed with the community here. 

Mr Deathbot wrote...

Aveline scares me

I cracked up the first time I saw the nickname "Ms. Man-Jaw" used.  I kind of love how she absolutely ignores all attempts to flirt with her (did it on my Male Hawke and it was a bit deflating for my virtual male-ego).

But seriously, get some sleep!

Sleep is for the weak

Edit: I think I accidentally flirted with aveline once, she shot me down I hid under my bed for a week for fear that she was gonna find me and crush my spine.

Modifié par Mr Deathbot, 19 décembre 2012 - 11:49 .

[Kidd]

Mr Deathbot wrote...

I think I accidentally flirted with aveline once, she shot me down I hid under my bed for a week for fear that she was gonna find me and crush my spine.

Understandable reaction. She can bench press archdemons (plural) after all - at least one more than Cassandra. Source: Word of God ^^ Can't be too careful with such strength!

[Mr Deathbot]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Mr Deathbot wrote...

I think I accidentally flirted with aveline once, she shot me down I hid under my bed for a week for fear that she was gonna find me and crush my spine.

Understandable reaction. She can bench press archdemons (plural) after all - at least one more than Cassandra. Source: Word of God ^^ Can't be too careful with such strength!

I'm pretty sad with the choices in female LIs in DA2 It was either Aveline, isabela, or merrill, I didn't like how the elves looked in DA2 and aveline scared me I think I was willing to risk any number of diseases with isabela

[Commander Kurt]

Oh, I love Aveline.  

[quote]FreshIstay wrote...

The Ari-Qun is alway's Female, that is a Female role inside the Qun.

-snip-

[quote]

I have folded in favour of Mr Deathbot. Seems like a bad idea now, but there you go.

[Mr Deathbot]

[quote]Commander Kurt wrote...

Oh, I love Aveline.  

[quote]FreshIstay wrote...

The Ari-Qun is alway's Female, that is a Female role inside the Qun.

-snip-

[quote]

I have folded in favour of Mr Deathbot. Seems like a bad idea now, but there you go.[/quote] how could it seem like a bad idea? always bet on me... except when it looks like I'm gonna lose

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Now Im trully confused, explain this to me.

If i posed as a Female wouldnt you treat me like a Female?

If I posed as a Male wouldn't you treat me like a Male?

Or are you saying you want Men to treat you like a Man, or that you dont want to be treated like a Female by Men?

The
whole pricncipal is confusing to me because there isn't anywhere I can
go and say "Treat me like one of the Girl's" or perhaps there is and Im
unware, I shall do some research and infiltrate your evil minds

The issue is more that they feel they are treated worse when treated as a female. I think the most telling thing is that, while online, many women would rather have the online strangers think they are a man rather than a woman, in large part because a woman can take a litany of abuse simply because they are a woman.

I have women friends that have played WoW, and they stopped using their mics if they were playing with strangers, because the fact that they were a woman meant that they were now being treated differently, often in an unpleasant way.

Oh were they constantly getting free stuff? Yeah I hate it when that happens when I pretend to be a woman in an MMO.

[Commander Kurt]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Mr Deathbot wrote...

I think I accidentally flirted with aveline once, she shot me down I hid under my bed for a week for fear that she was gonna find me and crush my spine.

Understandable reaction. She can bench press archdemons (plural) after all - at least one more than Cassandra. Source: Word of God ^^ Can't be too careful with such strength!

Also, women still get the kids in the cases where that becomes relevant. Which is bad.

[Commander Kurt]

[quote]Mr Deathbot wrote...

[quote]Commander Kurt wrote...

Oh, I love Aveline.  

[quote]FreshIstay wrote...

The Ari-Qun is alway's Female, that is a Female role inside the Qun.

-snip-

[quote]

I have folded in favour of Mr Deathbot. Seems like a bad idea now, but there you go.[/quote] how could it seem like a bad idea? always bet on me... except when it looks like I'm gonna lose
[/quote]

But I was winning. Winning is better than folding.

...which is, of course, an illusion. There are no winners in internet gender debate. Only loosers.  You being the only exception known to man, which kind of makes you awesome.

[Mr Deathbot]

Commander Kurt wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Mr Deathbot wrote...

I think I accidentally flirted with aveline once, she shot me down I hid under my bed for a week for fear that she was gonna find me and crush my spine.

Understandable reaction. She can bench press archdemons (plural) after all - at least one more than Cassandra. Source: Word of God ^^ Can't be too careful with such strength!

Also, women still get the kids in the cases where that becomes relevant. Which is bad.

I wanna say something clever and relevent but I can't think of anything. *sigh* I'm tired I'm going to bed, goodnight people, or goodmorning...whatever.

[AlexanderCousland]

Gazardiel wrote...


1) I'm emphasizing that it's not so much "normal" but "being left alone to play the game as God intended" that is important.   I paid the money for the game just like anyone else and deserve to be able to enjoy the game.

Example: Way back in the days of Diablo I and Battlenet (2001-ish), I decided to try multiplayer with my Rogue (a female character - I like played archer-types and thought nothing of the female part).  I got into a dungeon with some person and we went through it.  Partway through, I tried to trade him for some loot, and he refused.  No biggie.  Then we got to talking, and he asked the dreaded question: "So r u a guy or a grl?"  Foolish me, I answered truthfully.  Then he asked how old. I told him.  He goes, "LOL.  Too old for me. "  And from then on, the entire experience changed - he opened doors for me and went, "After you " and at the end GAVE me the item I had wanted to trade for.

 
He gave you free loot?...dammitt I need to change my avatar.

I was lucky in that nothing "bad" happened to me. But it made it clear that other players will completely change how they interact with you (dragging in meatspace norms, for example) when all I want when I'm gaming is to play the damn game and take a break from all that BS.  I don't go online to get asked out on dates, I don't go online to have people speculate on my looks, yet there are some male gamers who think that simply by being online, a female is asking for this.

I understand the Frustration, really, you'll have to forgive us for being naturally inclined to spread our seed and the various form's of ignorance that Instinct may carry.

This also emphasizes the "normal" issue: actually, "male" is often considered "normal" or "default."  How was PacMan animated vs. Ms. PacMan?  Ms. PacMan was PacMan with a bow (and sometimes eyelashes and lipstick).  Prior to the revelation of my offline plumbing, the other gamer treated me as a normal gamer, but afterwards, he acted abnormally for the gaming environment.  Look at language: "mankind" and "men" can be used to address women, but if a woman says, "I'm a man", everyone gets weird.  Same with "God" - God is supposed to be gender-neutral, but why does everyone get upset when you say "Goddess"?  There are visual and linguistics ways that define male as normal/neutral and female as abnormal.  What a genderbending female player may want (not speaking for all here, just me and those I know) is to take a break from being treated as abnormal and to get to just be instead.

 
I understand the Point of what your saying.. I really do. Perhap's Im confused because, I, myself dont not see female's as abnormal and dont know any men that say stupid stuff on the basis of gender, at least with harmful intent. I also beleive while Female's are not considered physically stronger, they poses a host of qualities that trump Male's in general.

2) Much of female social norms contradict the norms of gaming.  In addition to threats of sexual assault that are seen on FatUglyor****ty.com, a lot of remarks are about "go to the kitchen and make me a sammich" or "you should have my babies" - those are inherently gendered judgments about the players that most of those female players probably have to deal with IRL.  Even for gamers who enjoy feminine social roles IRL, it is nice to take a break and not have to re-enact them in what is supposed to be a neutral environment.  You can also see cases where the female player beat the male player fair and square, but then was accused of cheating, because there is no way a female could be better than a male.

Psychologically, there are a lot of dynamics at play. In studies of genderbending avatars, there are guys who intentionally play female avatars to further humiliate other male players when they beat them - "You were beaten by a girl."

What on earth are you doing on FatUglyor****ty.com. ? you must be trying to make yourself angry. The name of the site itself screams immature.  I understand what your getting at though, I will admitt that there is some shame involved in losing to a female, I think that has something to do with the natural difference in physicality between male's and female's in our species,  female's are weaker so I cannot lose to them In any shape form or fashion. It is true.

3) Roles.  This is more in MMOs that have standardized Tank-Healer-DPS roles.  In WoW, there is a running joke that you recruit your girlfriend into WoW to be your "pocket healer" - women are naturally better healers because they're nurturing and give birth to babies, see?  Oh, and you can entice her in by letting her roll a pretty elf girl who can buy dresses and cute pets!   There are guys on the forums who say that they have trouble seeing a female character Tank, or in knowing that a female player is Tanking, because "Women shouldn't be getting hit and I feel like I need to protect her!

I understand why you feel that In the confines of the game itself our natural role's should not come into play. They do It make's you uncomfrotable, I understand now.

4) The Siren's Song.  There are many many cases where a female player speaks up on Vent for the first time and is blamed for wiping the raid because she "distracted" everyone.  Female players are accused of being drama queens and attention ****s simply for trying to be friendly on voice chat because their seductive voices are apparently too traumatic for the male players to hear while concentrating on playing.  Guilds have banned female players because they think they cause trouble (again, it takes two to tango).  Also, once word gets out that you're female, you become the default "Guild Counselor" to whom everyone comes with your problems, meaning that when you log on, you're bogged down by people talking to you (and of course, if you turn them down, you're called ****y).  I had a harder time in raids because I was a "silent partner", but I paid attention and didn't take on any large roles that needed me to talk.

All of these are examples where the only factor that led to a change in how the player was treated was because other players now had irrelevant information about her plumbing in meatspace and chose to impose expectations and interactions upon her that kept her from being able to play the game like other people.

I don't intend to indict the entire gamer community in this - I just wanted to give examples of how things drastically have changed for a lot of female gamers when others decided that gender/sex was more important than gaming, to the point that female gamers would have to take measures to allow themselves a normal gaming experience.  And I have been very pleased to see a lot of progress towards less hostility overall and more vocal pushback by many gamers against this.  This is something that takes a lot of "stepping into someone else's shoes" if you've never experienced the types of situations I list here, and I understand and am happy that many gamers never have to deal with this. But I hope that discussions like the one on this thread can help inform about experiences different from those one may have.

TL:DR - XKCD says it well.

(Edit: ah, I'm new to the censorship standards here.  No offense intended; I was intending to quote/reference what people say and not use those words against anyone.  I hope this didn't anger any mods)

Thank You, I understand what your saying as it applie's to Game's themselve's, other area's of society we might have issues, but as far as Game's go, consider me enlightened.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 19 décembre 2012 - 12:24 .