680 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Dude, I know you think women, especially the pretty ones, have it easy, but if roles were reversed, and you found yourself being treated that way by women, you'd see that it's not pleasant. The grass is always greener on the other side.

If this is true, then most complaints everyone makes are bogus.

No, it means the opposite. Everyone's complaints about their own personal problems are completely valid. There are pros and cons to every situation.

To use a Bioware example, take Miranda's loyalty mission in ME2. Even though Niket is her oldest and closest friend, he doesn't truly understand her motivations. He doesn't understand that her life was unpleasant, and came with certain pressures that he never experienced. All he knows is that he grew up poor, and he "didn't much care for it".

> Niket knows what it's like to struggle to survive, and thinks that putting up with someone like Miranda's father is an acceptable compromise. He thinks returning Oriana to her father is doing her a favour, even though it means taking her from the people who raised her, the only family she's ever known.

> Miranda knows what it's like to have to put up with her father, and thinks that sacrificing the wealth and privilege that comes with being his daughter is an acceptable compromise for her freedom. She believes that taking Oriana as an infant was the right thing to do, even though it meant denying her a life of wealth and privilege.

Both persepctives are equally valid. Just like, in the gender "debate", the problems that affect men and women, while different, are also equally valid.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 19 décembre 2012 - 02:36 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Dhiro wrote...

I'd like to clarify that I'm not a woman, and as such I have no right to speak to them. I feel uncomfortable in a personal level. I think it's important to clarify that.

And instinct is the excuse people use not to take up their responsabilities as thinking beings that can make decisions for themselves.

Umm...I think your lying about not being a Woman. really.

If you were Male you would understand that we want to have sex, in-fact our sexual function is to inseminate things  So we go out into the world and look for people to inseminate and you would also understand stand that alot of males carry with us DIFFERENT PERSONALITIES,  and the personality most men and women in this Forum seem to have an Issue with is the "sleeze-ball" personality, which unfortunately  give's the rest of us Inseminator's a bad rap.
 

So if your uncomfrotable with the idea that Women are romantic interests that you have to pursue if you want Romance..then It's kind of hard for me to beleive youre a guy....just sayin.

[Plaintiff]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
See... I just don't buy it. It would be nice if it happened... but I just don't buy it.

If you raised a teenage boy with heterosexual tendencies up on a desserted island, giving him no outside media or visual stimulation, and then walked a super model right up to him, he'd be staring at her boobs and thinking about having sex with her. It doesn't matter if she is wrapped up like an Amish woman... the instincts and hormones involved wire his brain chemistry to do so. 

Actually, if the boy has truly not been given any outside information, then he won't even have any concept of a woman, or of gender or sex at all. There's absolutely no way of telling how he would react. If he does stare, it'll probably be more so out of genuine and innocent curiosity than hormone-driven lust. He might even view her as competition for food and territory, and attack her.

Yes, men have instincts, men have hormones. Those are what marketers are appealing to when they present female characters in that way. That is the problem.

Men are so much more than their base instincts, and trying to appeal to the heterosexual male's supposedly uncontrollable need to stare at boobs is exactly as insulting and degrading to men as it is to women.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 19 décembre 2012 - 02:40 .

[SpunkyMonkey]

FreshIstay wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

I'd like to clarify that I'm not a woman, and as such I have no right to speak to them. I feel uncomfortable in a personal level. I think it's important to clarify that.

And instinct is the excuse people use not to take up their responsabilities as thinking beings that can make decisions for themselves.

Umm...I think your lying about not being a Woman. really.

If you were Male you would understand that we want to have sex, in-fact our sexual function is to inseminate things  So we go out into the world and look for people to inseminate and you would also understand stand that alot of males carry with us DIFFERENT PERSONALITIES,  and the personality most men and women in this Forum seem to have an Issue with is the "sleeze-ball" personality, which unfortunately  give's the rest of us Inseminator's a bad rap.
 

So if your uncomfrotable with the idea that Women are romantic interests that you have to pursue if you want Romance..then It's kind of hard for me to beleive youre a guy....just sayin.

It has to be said, I find it a bit worrying how many people out there expect blokes not to go chasing women. How it's done is another matter entirely, and respecting other peoples space/views/tastes etc. is something we should all be civil enough to do.

However, that instinct to chase is always there, and the only reason many men refine themselves so much is because it assists in that chase by putting out the perception that they are not sleezy. Deep down we're still chasing, just some are doing it better by pretending not to lol.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 19 décembre 2012 - 02:35 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't think anybody said it would. These images and behaviours are symptomatic, not causal.

While western society and a society under Sharia law, to use your example, may exhibit different symptoms of varying severity, the disease is the same; a disrespect for the rights of women.

Yes, gender equality has made remarkable advancements, but there are still a lot of issues present that are more subtle, and difficult to tackle because their subtlety makes them tricky to articulate, and the truth is that they affect equally, in an opposite direction. Like a seesaw.

While it may not be the cure, working on the way women are presented in media generally goes a long way towards solving the issue. The media reflects and, in a way, regulates what it means to be "normal". If a more realistic image of women becomes the norm, then attitudes will change.

Dude....Men aren't diseased for finding picture's of women in popular mediums attractive in any shape, form, or fashion. That's equalivent to me saying your diseased for liking guys....seriously...take that thought and dump it in the trash can.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Here is a website of women gamers posting the type of things many women have to endure simply because it becomes known that they are a female in an online game.


Here's an inbox of one after an evening of gaming:
http://fatuglyorslut...T_XX_S1L3NT.jpg

Doesn't surprise me.
The internets is full of stupid and immature poeple. The annonimity means they act like d*** - to men and women both. Altough in case of women, they usually get bothered in a different way (when bothered by men). Men usually get insults by other men, while women get "UR a gurl? Pics or it didn't happen!"

I still fail to see how changing box covers on products would affect this in any way.

At the end of the day men and women ARE different and you'll never get people to threat them 100% completely the same - especially not with anionimity.

[Plaintiff]

FreshIstay wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't think anybody said it would. These images and behaviours are symptomatic, not causal.

While western society and a society under Sharia law, to use your example, may exhibit different symptoms of varying severity, the disease is the same; a disrespect for the rights of women.

Yes, gender equality has made remarkable advancements, but there are still a lot of issues present that are more subtle, and difficult to tackle because their subtlety makes them tricky to articulate, and the truth is that they affect equally, in an opposite direction. Like a seesaw.

While it may not be the cure, working on the way women are presented in media generally goes a long way towards solving the issue. The media reflects and, in a way, regulates what it means to be "normal". If a more realistic image of women becomes the norm, then attitudes will change.

Dude....Men aren't diseased for finding picture's of women in popular mediums attractive in any shape, form, or fashion. That's equalivent to me saying your diseased for liking guys....seriously...take that thought and dump it in the trash can.

Sigh.

I was not saying that men are diseased. I was using disease as a metaphor.

And the metaphorical disease in question is not "finding women attractive". Whether you find women attractive is an entirely separate issue from whether or not you respect them. The two things are not related.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Plaintiff wrote...



Men are so much more than their base instincts, and trying to appeal to the heterosexual male's supposedly uncontrollable need to stare at boobs is exactly as insulting and degrading to men as it is to women.

Is it? Really?

How many hetrosexual men on here are ashamed that they like looking at nice boobies?

One vote for "not me" here. Women are fine things.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 19 décembre 2012 - 02:41 .

[AlexJK]

FreshIstay wrote...

If you were Male you would understand that we want to have sex, in-fact our sexual function is to inseminate things  So we go out into the world and look for people to inseminate and you would also understand stand that alot of males carry with us DIFFERENT PERSONALITIES,  and the personality most men and women in this Forum seem to have an Issue with is the "sleeze-ball" personality, which unfortunately  give's the rest of us Inseminator's a bad rap.

Are you actually reading what you're writing? Are you a child? I mean, referring to yourself (and presumably all other members of the male sex) as "inseminators" - really?

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

It has to be said, I find it a bit worrying how many people out there expect blokes not to go chasing women. How it's done is another matter entirely, and respecting other peoples space/views/tastes etc. is something we should all be civil enough to do.

Possibly - and I'm guessing - the issue is the word chasing and its connotations? You can argue about "instincts" all you want but the fact is that modern human society really doesn't have any room for the kind of primal behaviour "chasing" implies.

Modifié par AlexJK, 19 décembre 2012 - 02:47 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Dude, I know you think women, especially the pretty ones, have it easy, but if roles were reversed, and you found yourself being treated that way by women, you'd see that it's not pleasant. The grass is always greener on the other side.

If this is true, then most complaints everyone makes are bogus.

No, it means the opposite. Everyone's complaints about their own personal problems are completely valid. There are pros and cons to every situation.

That everyone *thinks* the neighbors grass is greener doesn't automaticly give validity to anything.

[Plaintiff]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
Is it? Really?

Yes.

How many hetrosexual men on here are ashamed that they like looking at nice boobies?

One vote for "not me" here. Women are fine things.

Congratulations, you missed the point completely. It has nothing to do with shame. At all.

I really don't know how I can make this any clearer, but I'm going to give it one more shot.

That style of marketing is offensive to women, because it presents them as objects that exist only to please men.

The same style of marketing is also offensive to men, because it is based on the assumption that men are only interested in ****** and ass, that seeing said ****** and ass will render them incapable of higher brain function, and that they won't care or even notice if the story and characters are bad or offensive because "booooooobiiiiiiiieeeeeeees".

[SpunkyMonkey]

AlexJK wrote...

Possibly - and I'm guessing - the issue is the word chasing? You can argue about "instincts" all you want but the fact is that modern human society really doesn't have any room for the kind of primal behaviour "chasing" implies.

But it's an instinct as natural as eating and drinking is to us. Horny is just a hunger pain from different body parts, and without that urge we would die out as a race. I know science can do a lot but all it takes is another world war and we could all be back in caves.

So whilst I'm all for men toning their actions down, and certainly growing up enough to be respectful online (just read Allan's link above and it's fricking sad just what some "blokes" do come out with), I certainly think we ought to pay a bit more respect to a primal instinct which has served us well for millions of years.

I don't think women realize just how good they can make men feel, just by being women! lol

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Dude, I know you think women, especially the pretty ones, have it easy, but if roles were reversed, and you found yourself being treated that way by women, you'd see that it's not pleasant. The grass is always greener on the other side.

If this is true, then most complaints everyone makes are bogus.

No, it means the opposite. Everyone's complaints about their own personal problems are completely valid. There are pros and cons to every situation.

That everyone *thinks* the neighbors grass is greener doesn't automaticly give validity to anything.

Jesus ****ing Christ.

[Gazardiel]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

But just because women have attained those ranks due to ambition and talent does not mean that the "natural" hierarchy in our most primitve sense allows for any equality at all. And not just between the sexes - small group human systems naturally evolve hierarchies where some have more benefits than others. And, FAR more often than not, this naturally evolving system has females in the "less" column as far as benefits go.

Can we break out of these molds? Absolutely. But to say there isn't a preter-natural instinct in how they play out? That's just naive and ignores millenia of evidence to the contrary.

[snipped]

This is a great lead-in to a much larger anthropological and philosphical discussion about the human condition that would be awesome to have at some point, but I'm pretty sure it would go way beyond the scope of this forum (and the patience of the mods?).  I just wanted to acknowledge your points here as very important and relevant - in fact, that is still a central question, even among gender and social theorists.  There is definitely a biological component to this too (my area of expertise - embodiment) because we are not only mammals with internal gestation, but also because we walk upright (which fudged up a lot of reproductive piping) and have long pregnancies and childrearing.

There is a constant tension between the "what is" and the "what should?" - how things are and how they ought to be (or how we could make them).  This is part of why I think that gaming and online environments are awesome - they help us to realize assumptions that were invisible and take some factors out of play.  For example, many people argue that the internet is a neutral space where anyone can be.  I totally support this in theory, but we tend to drag in our ways of doing things in meatspace and skew things. 

Likewise, in fantasy, you can literally create a world that does anything you want it to do.  For some, that involves swords and sorcery, for others, aliens and laser blasters.  But even with that extreme freedom, some environments are kept with certain things in place, like gender roles and restrictions (see: Game of Thrones).  The brilliance of fantasy settings is that you can make some pervasive problems in reality disappear (or be explained away); maybe Thedas has some type of perfect birth control so women can be as sexually active as men without risks of pregnancy (a big deal in evolutionary biology).  Maybe there is a less homophobic culture so people aren't as bothered by same-sex relationships, or maybe (as in some RL cultures), there is a lot more fluidity about orientation and attraction in general.  As David Gaider said back when DA2 came out, the inclusion of this diversity isn't taking anything away from straight male gamers, except the exclusivity of appeal, which is not a valid claim.

This gives us a great way to explore the (nearly) impossible and to even try inverting expectations about the world.  I saw some concerned that the Chantry was sexist against males - it provokes really good thinking and discussion to talk about that since most religious instiutions IRL are male-dominated.  What differences are there? How would it feel to be someone now disempowered in a certain way that wasn't even recognized before?  How would romance and courtship be handled if women were as strong as men? (I loved Aveline's romance line - I felt a lot of sympathy for her)

People play games for escape, and for fun, and to feed their imaginations.  To have such a great and awesome tool at our disposal but only use it to rehash existing social norms seems like a waste of creative potential.  And in this, Bioware has done a great job at challenging the "what is" (again, debateable) and offered one example of an "it could be like this."  But it is important for us to also recognize the "what is" that affects the ability of some people to enjoy the fantasy game alongside other people - and that's what I see as the point of this whole 25+ page discussion.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Plaintiff wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
Is it? Really?

Yes.

How many hetrosexual men on here are ashamed that they like looking at nice boobies?

One vote for "not me" here. Women are fine things.

Congratulations, you missed the point completely. It has nothing to do with shame. At all.

I really don't know how I can make this any clearer, but I'm going to give it one more shot.

That style of marketing is offensive to women, because it presents them as objects that exist only to please men.

The same style of marketing is also offensive to men, because it is based on the assumption that men are only interested in ****** and ass, that seeing said ****** and ass will render them incapable of higher brain function, and that they won't care or even notice if the story and characters are bad or offensive because "booooooobiiiiiiiieeeeeeees".

Fair enough, I take your point but I personally think that it's a weak man who gets offended by such a thing.

But you are right, and it would be nice to have game companies step away from the god-awful perfect, implanted, bodies we saw in DA:2 & ME:3

[AlexJK]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

But it's an instinct as natural as eating and drinking is to us. Horny is just a hunger pain from different body parts, and without that urge we would die out as a race.

Yes, but in the exact same way as feeling hungry no longer requires a brace of sharp implements and an expedition away to hunt the nearest edible animal, feeling horny no longer requires chasing the nearest female. Modern (western, industrial) society does not support this behaviour.

Modifié par AlexJK, 19 décembre 2012 - 02:54 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Fiacre wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Im not suggesting that you feel sorry for Men who throw Hissy Fits when rejected.  All men dont do this.
I agree,  You Move on. and Yes, Women can be rejected to, but are you honestly going to say that Women pursue Men more then Men pursue Women? even If they did I'd have a hard time beilieving they wouldnt be succsessful in most of their endeavors.

Well, while I don't identify as such, I have a female body and I've never lucked out yet. (Incidentally -- men often do a lot more than throw hissy fits, and even those can be quite hurtful. there are also far too many people that think that being nice tro someone means that the other should be grateful and be receptive to their sexual advances -- that's not everyone, of course not, but a lot of women have had experiences with these kinds trying to pursue them. It's not fun, believe me.)

And anyway, one would think that of a man is not interested, he won't suddenly be interested just because the woman pursues him. Especially when her goal is an actual relationship, not casual sex.

Welp, Every Male that I've ever conquered a social event with never threw a hissy fir or called a woman out of her name because he was rejected, "Oh well, NEXT!"....someone's bound to say yes, that's the theory.

How would you know if a Man is interested or not without talking to him.?

Modifié par FreshIstay, 19 décembre 2012 - 02:53 .

[SpunkyMonkey]

AlexJK wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

But it's an instinct as natural as eating and drinking is to us. Horny is just a hunger pain from different body parts, and without that urge we would die out as a race.

Yes, but in the exact same way as feeling hungry no longer requires sharp tools and hunting the nearest animal, feeling horny no longer requires chasing the nearest female. Modern (western, industrial) society does not support this behaviour.

Only because food is far more easily available than women, and we can't buy and be served females in the same way which we can now food (well, not legally anyway - and certainly not to the same level of satisfaction).

[Gazardiel]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Men are so much more than their base instincts, and trying to appeal to the heterosexual male's supposedly uncontrollable need to stare at boobs is exactly as insulting and degrading to men as it is to women.

Is it? Really?

How many hetrosexual men on here are ashamed that they like looking at nice boobies?

One vote for "not me" here. Women are fine things.

As long as there are nice man-parts available to look at too, without guys whining about "teh ghey", then it's all good.  It just seems that there is a subset of dudes who get deeply offended at the mere existence of pretty boys or attractive guys who don't fit their idea of what masculinity is (yet are attractive to straight women and gay guys).  And if players would have an option to cover up their own PC's boobies and ass with actual clothes/armor, that would be a bonus.  Let's have a smorgasbord of fine things!

P.S. Reading recommendation for those interested in masculinity culture - Michael Kimmel is an awesome masculinity studies writer who does great work discussing how males are disserviced by gender norms and forced into negative behaviors.  It's a really great balance to the piles and piles of female-oriented theory out there.  One personal beef I have with gender theory is that a lot of it focuses on how feminity is enforced, but doesn't look at the relationship between genders without focusing on a one-dimensional "oppression" or "patriarchy".  It's a lot more complicated and worth examining from more perspectives.   Misframing men : the politics of contemporary masculinities is a good book to start with - he even looks at recent mass shootings in the context of social pressures on men.

[AlexanderCousland]

FreshIstay wrote...

If you were Male you would understand that we want to have sex, in-fact our sexual function is to inseminate things  So we go out into the world and look for people to inseminate and you would also understand stand that alot of males carry with us DIFFERENT PERSONALITIES,  and the personality most men and women in this Forum seem to have an Issue with is the "sleeze-ball" personality, which unfortunately  give's the rest of us Inseminator's a bad rap.

AlexJK wrote...
Are you actually reading what you're writing? Are you a child? I mean, referring to yourself (and presumably all other members of the male sex) as "inseminators" - really?

Good Gosh....take a chill pill. seriously. It was ment to be funny, hence, all the Laughing faces....dont be such a negative nancy.  

Modifié par FreshIstay, 19 décembre 2012 - 03:00 .

[AlexJK]

FreshIstay wrote...

Good Gosh....take a chill pill. seriously. It was ment to be funny, hence, all the Laughing faces....dont be such a negative nancy.  

Sorry, must have misinterpreted the emoticon vomit. ^_^:blink:

[SpunkyMonkey]

Gazardiel wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Men are so much more than their base instincts, and trying to appeal to the heterosexual male's supposedly uncontrollable need to stare at boobs is exactly as insulting and degrading to men as it is to women.

Is it? Really?

How many hetrosexual men on here are ashamed that they like looking at nice boobies?

One vote for "not me" here. Women are fine things.

As long as there are nice man-parts available to look at too, without guys whining about "teh ghey", then it's all good.  It just seems that there is a subset of dudes who get deeply offended at the mere existence of pretty boys or attractive guys who don't fit their idea of what masculinity is (yet are attractive to straight women and gay guys).  And if players would have an option to cover up their own PC's boobies and ass with actual clothes/armor, that would be a bonus.  Let's have a smorgasbord of fine things!

P.S. Reading recommendation for those interested in masculinity culture - Michael Kimmel is an awesome masculinity studies writer who does great work discussing how males are disserviced by gender norms and forced into negative behaviors.  It's a really great balance to the piles and piles of female-oriented theory out there.  One personal beef I have with gender theory is that a lot of it focuses on how feminity is enforced, but doesn't look at the relationship between genders without focusing on a one-dimensional "oppression" or "patriarchy".  It's a lot more complicated and worth examining from more perspectives.   Misframing men : the politics of contemporary masculinities is a good book to start with - he even looks at recent mass shootings in the context of social pressures on men.

Totally. If anything I'd like to see more realism on both parts, so if they want to make the characters sexy make them so, but not in a 00's implanted way.

[AlexanderCousland]

  This smiley face is dedicated to Today.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 19 décembre 2012 - 03:15 .

[Gazardiel]

FreshIstay wrote...
Good Gosh....take a chill pill. seriously. It was ment to be funny, hence, all the Laughing faces....dont be such a negative nancy.  

Hey, just wanted to say I think it's great that you're keeping chill about all this.  I know I threw a lot of stuff at you, but it's because you truly seem to want to get along and understand. 

Also, here's a protip on winning with the ladies - my most successful guyfriends all had good friendships (platonic - no sex, lots of respect and trust) with gals, especially other female gamers.  We're not monolithic (just as guys aren't), so of course there are some who try to use their gender to get ahead and manipulate people, just as there are guys who are sleazebags.  But the serious gamers are people whose respect you can earn by playing well in-game with them and by being a good comrade-in-arms.

Think of Guardsman Donnic - he was focused on doing his job and didn't want any special treatment, and was a brave, honest guy who respected Aveline for how hard she worked.  That is a super-turnon for a lot of powerful women. 

If you focus on cultivating those types of positive relationships, you'll likely end up with some great wingwomen who will give you great tips on how to get in with a gal (as opposed to Maxim tips).  Not to mention, a lot of smart women (a large proportion of those who game) appreciate good conversation (as opposed to "wnt 2 c my p3n0r?") and thoughtful discussions.  It's a bit trickier than choosing "Diplomacy" all the time, but the payoff is much higher in terms of having more fun in games and in getting the hookup on how to really be a cool guy.