680 réponses à ce sujet

[Swagger7]

BasilKarlo wrote...

Blank-Slate-Blues wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...

Somehow when I look at Isabela and Morrigan my first thought isn't "this seems like it was made for girls." Gratuitously sexualized women aren't staples of feminine sensibilities. Now if DA3 features dong-cleavage and dudes that never wear shirts you might have a case.

Off topic: I don't know, gratuitous fanservice aside, I always got the impression that Morrigan and Isabela dressed that way because, as characters (people?), they chose to. If a male character is going to walk around in a man-thong, it should be because he chooses to (within the context of his character).

Isabela was a sexual being in Origins but she still wore pants. And it's very easy to say "that's who they are" or "that's what the character chooses to wear" but it's Bioware making these choices. I think cleavage, non-stop come-ons and sexual innuendo would have been enough to illustrate that Isabela is comfortable with sexuality/sex. Bioware decided to beat us over the head with it.

I still don't get how that can be considered sexist when Isabella was written by a woman.

[Steppenwolf]

Where did I call it sexist? I simply suggested that feminine sensibilities are not the driving creative force of Dragon Age by pointing to characters with fanservicey designs for male gamers.

[Swagger7]

BasilKarlo wrote...

Where did I call it sexist? I simply suggested that feminine sensibilities are not the driving creative force of Dragon Age by pointing to characters with fanservicey designs for male gamers.

Oops, sorry.  Gratuitously sexualized women are often viewed as sexist, so I thought that was the argument you were making.  I haven't had enough sleep today, so I'm not running on all cylinders here.

Sorry for misinterpreting you.

[Steppenwolf]

No problem. I can understand why you read it that way. If I weren't such a fan of boobies I might even see it that way.

Modifié par BasilKarlo, 17 décembre 2012 - 08:34 .

[Saibh]

Swagger7 wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...

Isabela was a sexual being in Origins but she still wore pants. And it's very easy to say "that's who they are" or "that's what the character chooses to wear" but it's Bioware making these choices. I think cleavage, non-stop come-ons and sexual innuendo would have been enough to illustrate that Isabela is comfortable with sexuality/sex. Bioware decided to beat us over the head with it.

I still don't get how that can be considered sexist when Isabella was written by a woman.

I think first, it's important to say that Isabela from DAO is pretty inconsequential to Isabela in DAII. She was not designed as a unique companion NPC. So whether or not she wore pants or not isn't important. Besides, people change outfits.

Second, the person who designs the characters and the person who writes them are different. They are expected to collaborate (and they should, obviously), but it's entirely possible for the art design people to think Isabela should be pantsless and Mary Kirby to disagree (although I don't think she disapproves).

With having that said, I feel like the pantlessness is over the top and clearly something to cater to the male gaze. Of all the people you've ever seen or met, of all the so-called promiscuous women, how many of them just don't wear pants with a shirt that's slitted up the side and not fitted? Of all the ways a woman might want to show off her body or express something with her choice in clothing, I can't think of an example of a woman doing it in this way.

And I think it's fair to say that Thedas standards of dress are more conservative than now, unless string bikinis are something women in Rivain like to outfit themselves with.

Isabela is not a person, she's a fictional character. Everything about her is designed. You are supposed to look at her and get an idea of her personality just from that look. DAII was fantastic about giving you a great idea of what a character was like at a glance (I remember how great the Varric fans got his personality down from just the concept art--that's some fantastic design). And Isabela's design was obviously meant to suggest to us a sexually available pirate. But the emphasis was far more on the "sexually available" part than the "pirate" part, and I don't think that actually reflects well on Isabela's character. It overwhelms and undermines it, rather than emphasizes or contributes.

As a last point, you'll notice that Isabela was chosen as the marketing companion, rather than Aveline, Anders, or Varric, all of whom are more relevant and more more sense than her.

I don't care that much (and I modded those pants in, and her outfit looks nicer like that), but I'd be curious to know if BioWare actually makes money off of the showing the ladies' skin off in their marketing. I wouldn't think so, but I don't have the numbers.

Modifié par Saibh, 17 décembre 2012 - 08:48 .

[Xewaka]

I have a third option. No character in cover, just an stylized something relevant to the game (like, say, the symbol emblazoned on Cassandra's chest piece).

[AlexanderCousland]

d4eaming wrote...

Wild guess, without knowing the context of the deleted post, is that the point is that when you are in a discussion about equality and women, saying "but what about the men", pretty much just like you said, is derailing and ends up in flames. It's never necessary to say "but what about the men/don't forget the men" when in discussion of women's lack of equal treatment. We won't forget about the men, we promise, because society won't let us forget about the men.

Discuss how BW or any other company should make equal covers (or sole covers) to women's tastes, and don't even bring up the men at all.

I feel I am dangerously close to the forbidden zone here, considering the previous demand to stay away, so I will just leave it at that and hope you will take the time to consider why your statement is problematic in itself.

Actually what I said is that Men shouldn't be belittled in the name of Women's equality. Let me translate, dont put down one gender in a effort to promote another, there is nothing equal about that. Dragon Age 3 should promote males and females equally, I was in concordance with previous poster's actually. I was just offended when men were being disrespected and objectified. So yes, I will discuss how companies should make things tailored to women, most of them do,  I will defend women when I see inequality, I treat ALL people with the same amount of respect I feel I deserve. perhap's you should take time to consider why you feel  that me defending my gender is "problematic"  an why  i shouldn't bring up "the men". i certainly haven't said the opposite, lord help me If i had. 

Female's on the cover is a good thing, it wouldn't be fair to exclude female's, Im against excluding minorities as well, Why not have a black protaginst on the Cover? or a black female protaginist? Diversify this thing. Im all for it.

   

[FaWa]

omg yes please make the cover character a black girl. That would be A-MA-ZING

[Steppenwolf]

RainbowPuppy wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...


Isabela was a sexual being in Origins but she still wore pants.

Isabela didn't wear pants in Origins either. She wore leather armor, which is basically a skirt from the waist down.

Maybe it's just a side effect of the mods I'm using but in my game she's wearing the style of leather armor with pants. 

[AlexanderCousland]

Saibh wrote...

I think first, it's important to say that Isabela from DAO is pretty inconsequential to Isabela in DAII. She was not designed as a unique companion NPC. So whether or not she wore pants or not isn't important. Besides, people change outfits.

Second, the person who designs the characters and the person who writes them are different. They are expected to collaborate (and they should, obviously), but it's entirely possible for the art design people to think Isabela should be pantsless and Mary Kirby to disagree (although I don't think she disapproves).

With having that said, I feel like the pantlessness is over the top and clearly something to cater to the male gaze. Of all the people you've ever seen or met, of all the so-called promiscuous women, how many of them just don't wear pants with a shirt that's slitted up the side and not fitted? Of all the ways a woman might want to show off her body or express something with her choice in clothing, I can't think of an example of a woman doing it in this way.

And I think it's fair to say that Thedas standards of dress are more conservative than now, unless string bikinis are something women in Rivain like to outfit themselves with.

Isabela is not a person, she's a fictional character. Everything about her is designed. You are supposed to look at her and get an idea of her personality just from that look. DAII was fantastic about giving you a great idea of what a character was like at a glance (I remember how great the Varric fans got his personality down from just the concept art--that's some fantastic design). And Isabela's design was obviously meant to suggest to us a sexually available pirate. But the emphasis was far more on the "sexually available" part than the "pirate" part, and I don't think that actually reflects well on Isabela's character. It overwhelms and undermines it, rather than emphasizes or contributes.

As a last point, you'll notice that Isabela was chosen as the marketing companion, rather than Aveline, Anders, or Varric, all of whom are more relevant and more more sense than her.

I don't care that much (and I modded those pants in, and her outfit looks nicer like that), but I'd be curious to know if BioWare actually makes money off of the showing the ladies' skin off in their marketing. I wouldn't think so, but I don't have the numbers.

Isabela had a Large Gold pendant around her neck that covered most of the clevage, front view, She had on thigh high black greave's and you could only see her awsomley well desinged rear if she turned to the side, I've seen women dressed in far less at a nightclub, a regular one. Isabela's plot was well-designed and more important to the scheme of the game then any companion you named except Anders, one could argue she's the biggest "choice" besides mage's or templar's.

Most heterosexual women that have figure's similar to Isabela's design usually dont do much to hide those feature's, even less so with the promiscuous type of woman, depending on the event/ocassion/setting, go to LA or Miami in the summer and you'll notice exactly what Im talking about without even coming near a beach. I'd contend that Men and Women dress themselve's with an Idea of our own sex appeal and attracting a certain type of social group/community/trend, and yes single or taken I think we would all like to be considered attractive by one another and we dress ourselve's accordingly. No one like's being called ugly < point.   

[Dhiro]

Saibh wrote...

Swagger7 wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...

Isabela was a sexual being in Origins but she still wore pants. And it's very easy to say "that's who they are" or "that's what the character chooses to wear" but it's Bioware making these choices. I think cleavage, non-stop come-ons and sexual innuendo would have been enough to illustrate that Isabela is comfortable with sexuality/sex. Bioware decided to beat us over the head with it.

I still don't get how that can be considered sexist when Isabella was written by a woman.

I think first, it's important to say that Isabela from DAO is pretty inconsequential to Isabela in DAII. She was not designed as a unique companion NPC. So whether or not she wore pants or not isn't important. Besides, people change outfits.

Second, the person who designs the characters and the person who writes them are different. They are expected to collaborate (and they should, obviously), but it's entirely possible for the art design people to think Isabela should be pantsless and Mary Kirby to disagree (although I don't think she disapproves).

With having that said, I feel like the pantlessness is over the top and clearly something to cater to the male gaze. Of all the people you've ever seen or met, of all the so-called promiscuous women, how many of them just don't wear pants with a shirt that's slitted up the side and not fitted? Of all the ways a woman might want to show off her body or express something with her choice in clothing, I can't think of an example of a woman doing it in this way.

And I think it's fair to say that Thedas standards of dress are more conservative than now, unless string bikinis are something women in Rivain like to outfit themselves with.

Isabela is not a person, she's a fictional character. Everything about her is designed. You are supposed to look at her and get an idea of her personality just from that look. DAII was fantastic about giving you a great idea of what a character was like at a glance (I remember how great the Varric fans got his personality down from just the concept art--that's some fantastic design). And Isabela's design was obviously meant to suggest to us a sexually available pirate. But the emphasis was far more on the "sexually available" part than the "pirate" part, and I don't think that actually reflects well on Isabela's character. It overwhelms and undermines it, rather than emphasizes or contributes.

As a last point, you'll notice that Isabela was chosen as the marketing companion, rather than Aveline, Anders, or Varric, all of whom are more relevant and more more sense than her.

I don't care that much (and I modded those pants in, and her outfit looks nicer like that), but I'd be curious to know if BioWare actually makes money off of the showing the ladies' skin off in their marketing. I wouldn't think so, but I don't have the numbers.

I disagree with pretty much everything that was said, but, because that's the part that bothers me the most: Isabela was written by Sheryl Chee, not Mary Kirby.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Swagger7 wrote...


I still don't get how that can be considered sexist when Isabella was written by a woman.

Twilight is considered sexist and it's written by a woman..........

[SpunkyMonkey]

I always play as Tyris, the red-headed female lesbian (elf when available   ) in games of such ilk, so I would love to see a female on the front cover.

I think the UK's Golden Axe & Golden Axe 2 artwork for the Megadrive had the best of all worlds.

[Newschmoo]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Considering the fanbase perhaps it is time to put a female lead on the cover? I mean the canon Warden and Hawke were both depicted as male so perhaps it is time for a female to take the lead? 

Couldn't you have two covers - give buyers the choice? The only downside I guess would be the cost. I have to admit it would be nice to have a female PC on the cover just for a change.

I would want to see both PCs in the video marketing though and some of the companions (rather than just one) to give more of a flavour.  

[Daissran]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Swagger7 wrote...


I still don't get how that can be considered sexist when Isabella was written by a woman.

Twilight is considered sexist and it's written by a woman..........

Just because something is written by a woman, that doesn't make it incapable of being sexist.

Also, sexism is something that is ingrained into society and can go on almost unnoticed unless you are aware. The weak/helpless princess, the scantily clad women, the dead wife that needs to be avenged...   common tropes that are hurtful and offensive when the representation of women is at stake (women are heavily underrepresented). Would I want my daughter to play videogames and be the brave male hero that rescues the princess ...or do I want her to be a female hero that fights alongside an empowered princess that doesn't need to be rescued? Also, as someone previously mentioned – making a game less blatantly sexist doesn't mean it's suddenly written for women. Logically, games that are gender neutral would benefit everybody and be more profitable.

Food for thought:
Anyone heard of the Bechdel Test?:
Geena Davis' Institute on Gender in Media: www.thegeenadavisinstitute.org/index.php

[Gazardiel]

Unfortunately, the term "sexist" gets tricky because it carries a negative connotation but also can simply mean "making distinctions based on sex."  So rather than get into that discussion, I'd like to give some examples of how there is a lack of parity in both the portrayals of males/females in cover art and how the way they are viewed by onlookers is different.  (long post, but I wanted to include illustrative examples to contribute to this discussion)

1) The way that women are commonly posed and dressed in fantasy/scifi/horror would look ridiculous for men. 

Exhibit A: Fantasy author Jim Hines tries to pose like heroines on book covers.

Exhibit B: Male Avengers pose like female superheroes

Exhibit C: What if male superheroes were dressed like females?

Those images probably will evoke some strong responses, and I'm pretty sure the word "gay" will cross people's minds (funny how that happens).  But the point is that there is a difference in how female characters tend to be portrayed, and it is not in some universally reasonable light... unless you believe that females are inherently supposed to look more sexual and vulnerable (many poses would put them off-balance, as opposed to squared-off to the viewer).  There are images of revealed boob-cleavage all around us on a regular basis, but have one bulging crotch shot of a dude and a lot of guys get cases of the vapors as they express their deep offense to the mere existence of such material. (This is privilege)

Just seeing how people gripe about Fenris and Anders indicates that there is a double-standard at work - women are supposed to be pretty, but men who are pretty or sensitive have their masculinity called into question and are often considered offensive to a large portion of male gamers.  (Fortunately, I've seen a great shift with many male gamers supporting equal opportunity romancing and character diversity! And kudos to David Gaider and others for taking a stand on this.)

2) The category of "male" is often invisible.  It is easier for the general populace to associate with a male in cover art than with a female.  How many dudes want to say, "I want to be Lara Croft!" in general company?  Yet on the other hand, a female gamer who enjoys a game with a male protagonist who does very male things (see: The Witcher) would have some trouble being able to identify with him in the same way as a male gamer could -  a female gamer who said, "I want to be like Geralt!" will immediately get raised eyebrows (though it's a bit more permissible for females to crossdress as males) since would that mean she wants to boink all those sexy women too? 

And as we can see with the complaints about the complaints about Fem!Shep on the cover of ME3, a woman's appearance gets judged on many more levels (by everyone) than does a man.  A man isn't usually primarily judged on his prettiness or his availability as a passive sex partner - he is esteemed for being powerful, strong, and admirable first (which then leads to the expectation that women will want to have sex with him).  Unfortunately, this big difference tends to derail attempts to make characters-who-happen-to-be-female into universal icons the way male characters have always been, and people throw up their hands and give up and go with the "neutral" male option.




3) The DA games are great because they provide disruptive situations that reveal privilege and double standards: 

(taken from a forum with a spoiler tag, so not linked)  A player complains about inadvertently romancing Anders when he was "just trying to be friends." 

I'm really just wondering if my only real choice is to pretend to be gay or ****** him off.I
kind of sucks that you can't simply be nice to him and up his
friendship without him also assuming you want to be his boyfriend.  Its
also kind of unrealistic in the sense that in REAL life its not like
everytime you're nice to someone they assume its time to have sex and
everytime you don't brown-nose them they hate you.Kind of drastic interpretation of Friendship and Rivalry, IMO.

When I read this, I immediately knew he was a dude because most gals have had that exact experience IRL where they were just trying to be nice to a guy and he thought she was sexually interested.  I think that this is potentially an educational experience for this poster because he is forced to see another perspective on the world he had previously been shielded from.

----
TL:DR - it is tricky to achieve "equality" or "parity" in portrayals of male and female characters in gaming and fantasy, and we should pause to consider what is going on in the background when we approach this issue.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Gazardiel wrote...

Unfortunately, the term "sexist" gets tricky because it carries a negative connotation but also can simply mean "making distinctions based on sex."  So rather than get into that discussion, I'd like to give some examples of how there is a lack of parity in both the portrayals of males/females in cover art and how the way they are viewed by onlookers is different.  (long post, but I wanted to include illustrative examples to contribute to this discussion)

1) The way that women are commonly posed and dressed in fantasy/scifi/horror would look ridiculous for men. 

Exhibit A: Fantasy author Jim Hines tries to pose like heroines on book covers.

Exhibit B: Male Avengers pose like female superheroes

Exhibit C: What if male superheroes were dressed like females?

Those images probably will evoke some strong responses, and I'm pretty sure the word "gay" will cross people's minds (funny how that happens).  But the point is that there is a difference in how female characters tend to be portrayed, and it is not in some universally reasonable light... unless you believe that females are inherently supposed to look more sexual and vulnerable (many poses would put them off-balance, as opposed to squared-off to the viewer).  There are images of revealed boob-cleavage all around us on a regular basis, but have one bulging crotch shot of a dude and a lot of guys get cases of the vapors as they express their deep offense to the mere existence of such material. (This is privilege)

Just seeing how people gripe about Fenris and Anders indicates that there is a double-standard at work - women are supposed to be pretty, but men who are pretty or sensitive have their masculinity called into question and are often considered offensive to a large portion of male gamers.  (Fortunately, I've seen a great shift with many male gamers supporting equal opportunity romancing and character diversity! And kudos to David Gaider and others for taking a stand on this.)

You see, I don't get how some people can't see that there is a big difference between males and females, and why an industry which has a predominantly male fanbase would be expected to do anything other than sexualize it's female characters?

[Daissran]

I don't think it has to be that difficult, honestly, to portray women and men in gaming fairly. A way to achieve equality for all would be to create a wide, varying cast of characters that include a number of representations. Obviously, being weary of not churning out the same harmful tropes over and over again...

It would also be awesome to include the female protagonist on the front cover for once.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Daissran wrote...

I don't think it has to be that difficult, honestly, to portray women and men in gaming fairly. .

Maybe not, but would it be as profitable?

[Wulfram]

Swagger7 wrote...

I still don't get how that can be considered sexist when Isabella was written by a woman.

I don't know if her art design was done by a woman, though.

Of course, I haven't seen any indication at all that her writer has any problems with how she turned out.  Not like the occasional mutterings we hear about the lack of shoes for the elves.

Modifié par Wulfram, 17 décembre 2012 - 12:40 .

[Daissran]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

You see, I don't get how some people can't see that there is a big difference between males and females, and why an industry which has a predominantly male fanbase would be expected to do anything other than sexualize it's female characters?

Maybe because the fanbase is expanding to include women.

... or perhaps men are capable of also thinking with their upstairs brain, and constantly sexualising women is assuming all men are carnal and sex hungry. Or change needs to take place because sexualising women is hurtful.

Modifié par Daissran, 17 décembre 2012 - 12:44 .

[Gazardiel]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

You see, I don't get how some people can't see that there is a big difference between males and females, and why an industry which has a predominantly male fanbase would be expected to do anything other than sexualize it's female characters?

The point is that, when offered material that wasn't overtly hostile, female gamers flocked to gaming in even greater numbers than before (just as the primordial slashfic writers started with Spock/Kirk, so too were there female gamers at the dawn of electronic gaming), so the reasons for the lower numbers was not a lack of interest, but a lack of relevance and appeal (in the form of lack of complete alienation).  Also, the gaming industry no longer has a predominantly (straight - remember the straight part) male fanbase, and companies that recognize this are seeing their innovations rewarded.  In addition to Bioware, I point to ArenaNet as an example of a company that recognizes the diversity of their userbase ("males" are not a homogenous group either!) and did little things like offer full-covering and scanty armour options for male and female characters.  Previous discussions in other game forums would always lead to hemming and hawing about the inherent "natures" of males and females, which are largely unfounded and instead based in social and cultural norms.

 

[SilentK]

I would be happy to see both the male and female protagonist on the DAIII box.

When my husband bought DA:O  a couple of years ago we had no idea you could play a female character, I had no interest in the game when he got it. I played Tomb Raider which was the one female character that I could find at the time. Then he showed me that you could indeed play a DA:O with a female character and Tomb Raider has been gathering dust ever since. And I never got a new game in that series either. Simply because I like these games so so much more and there is limited amount of freetime I have for gaming.

Perhaps there are other female gamers out there who missed that BioWare really let's you play a female character. My husband and I have continued to buy Collector's Editions of all the BioWare games ever since, it is our shared hobby 

ME3 did it well with boxes with male and female characters on the front, would be happy to see something like that again.

Modifié par SilentK, 17 décembre 2012 - 12:57 .

[SpunkyMonkey]

Daissran wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

You see, I don't get how some people can't see that there is a big difference between males and females, and why an industry which has a predominantly male fanbase would be expected to do anything other than sexualize it's female characters?

Maybe because the fanbase is expanding to include women.

... or perhaps men are capable of also thinking with their upstairs brain, and constantly sexualising women is assuming all men are carnal and sex hungry. Or change needs to take place because sexualising women is hurtful.

Yes it's fanbase is expanding to include plenty of women.

Yes men are capable of also thinking with their upstairs brain, and constantly sexualising women is assuming all men are carnal and sex hungry.

But the truth of the matter is that most men are carnal and sex hungry, and that the majority of both BW's current fanbase and the more casual gamers it's targetting, would far sooner see a sexier woman, who panders to those carnal thoughts. You make think that sad, and there may be plenty of exceptions on here, but it's true.

Gazardiel wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

You see, I don't get how some people can't see that there is a big difference between males and females, and why an industry which has a predominantly male fanbase would be expected to do anything other than sexualize it's female characters?

The point is that, when offered material that wasn't overtly hostile, female gamers flocked to gaming in even greater numbers than before (just as the primordial slashfic writers started with Spock/Kirk, so too were there female gamers at the dawn of electronic gaming), so the reasons for the lower numbers was not a lack of interest, but a lack of relevance and appeal (in the form of lack of complete alienation).  Also, the gaming industry no longer has a predominantly (straight - remember the straight part) male fanbase, and companies that recognize this are seeing their innovations rewarded.  In addition to Bioware, I point to ArenaNet as an example of a company that recognizes the diversity of their userbase ("males" are not a homogenous group either!) and did little things like offer full-covering and scanty armour options for male and female characters.  Previous discussions in other game forums would always lead to hemming and hawing about the inherent "natures" of males and females, which are largely unfounded and instead based in social and cultural norms.

 

Sorry, but I cannot believe that most gamers aren't predominantly men who desire women. I'm sure that it's grown in other areas to a large extent, but I'd still say that was the main target fanbase. Especially considering that BW is targetting the more casual, COD, type gamer.

My GF is bi-sexual and she was first drawn to DA:O DA:O because she found Morrigan sexy. Sex sells and i expext to see plenty of it in DA:3.