680 réponses à ce sujet

[Pedrak]

Xewaka wrote...

I have a third option. No character in cover, just an stylized something relevant to the game (like, say, the symbol emblazoned on Cassandra's chest piece).

[Daissran]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Sorry, but I cannot believe that most gamers aren't predominantly men who desire women. I'm sure that it's grown in other areas to a large extent, but I'd still say that was the main target fanbase. Especially considering that BW is targetting the more casual, COD, type gamer.

My GF is bi-sexual and she was first drawn to DA:O DA:O because she found Morrigan sexy. Sex sells and i expext to see plenty of it in DA:3.

Gamers constitute a wide variety of individuals, be they hardcore players or casual players. Including men and women of different race, creeds and orientations. Bioware appealing to a wider audience does not affect anyone in a remotely negative way... instead, it paves the way for a more mature, inclusive and profitable gaming world. And sex sells? There are a million other sales techniques, all equally effective. The status quo needs to be challenged and things need to change for the better.

[berelinde]

BioWare shows its attitude toward female gamers in every game they make. We are given strong female characters that we can identify with. The party pool contains female characters who are likable on their own merits, not because they're eye candy for the boys. For the most part, the people of the world neither objectify nor patronize women. Regardless of protagonist gender, the player is given the option to experiment with a wide variety of playing styles and protagonist personalities. In other words, it's role playing. This kind of game-building might not be the industry standard, but maybe it should be.

Sure, I would love to see marketing featuring a female protagonist, but I don't need to see it to know that the game will provide just as much enjoyment playing either gender.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Daissran wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Sorry, but I cannot believe that most gamers aren't predominantly men who desire women. I'm sure that it's grown in other areas to a large extent, but I'd still say that was the main target fanbase. Especially considering that BW is targetting the more casual, COD, type gamer.

My GF is bi-sexual and she was first drawn to DA:O DA:O because she found Morrigan sexy. Sex sells and i expext to see plenty of it in DA:3.

Gamers constitute a wide variety of individuals, be they hardcore players or casual players. Including men and women of different race, creeds and orientations. Bioware appealing to a wider audience does not affect anyone in a remotely negative way... instead, it paves the way for a more mature, inclusive and profitable gaming world. And sex sells? There are a million other sales techniques, all equally effective. The status quo needs to be challenged and things need to change for the better.

By far and away the biggest percentage of gamers are straight males - expect Bioware to market them as a priority.

And I agree with your principles, but you only have to look at the rest of the entertainment industry (movies, music etc.) to see how much stock companies put in a sexy image.

As much as you may want the world to work your way, unfortunately it does not. that is just out and out fact - Morrigan was not a fat munter, Leliana wasn't a flat-chested dweeb, every woman in Kirkwall had implants for a reason, Edward from Twighlight isn't a beer-bellied man with hairy shoulders and Rihanna doesn't have a moustache.

As much as people would like to believe the Susan Boyle types can be as big a success based on their art alone, it's only true in very rare cases, and if the business end of the art has the opportunity to make something more sexually appealing then it will.

Fenris, was a blatent emo-trend cash in - why would you expect anything else from DA:3?

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 17 décembre 2012 - 03:18 .

[The Elder King]

Xewaka wrote...

I have a third option. No character in cover, just an stylized something relevant to the game (like, say, the symbol emblazoned on Cassandra's chest piece).

I'd like to see the Inquisition symbol (which is basically a combination of the Templar's and Seeker's symbols).
Skyrim has a symbol in its cover, and it's sold 10 million copies. People weren't confused by the lack of the PC in the cover.

[SpunkyMonkey]

RainbowPuppy wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...


By far and away the biggest percentage of gamers are straight males - expect Bioware to market them as a priority.

And I agree with your principles, but you only have to look at the rest of the entertainment industry (movies, music etc.) to see how much stock companies put in a sexy image.

As much as you may want the world to work your way, unfortunately it does not. that is just out and out fact - Morrigan was not a fat munter, Leliana wasn't a flat-chested dweeb, Edward from Twighlight isn't a beer-bellied man with hairy shoulders, Rihanna doesn't have a moustache.

As much as people would like to believe the Susan Boyle types can be as big a success based on their art alone, it's only true in very rare cases, and if the business end of the art has the opportunity to make something more sexually appealing then it will.

Fenris, was a blatent emo-trend cash ins - why would you expect anything else from DA:3?

I'm sorry, but I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here? Everyone likes looking at pretty people, not just straight men. I'm fairly sure that handsome love interests like Alistair, Fenris, Anders and Zevran were not there for the straight male player's viewing pleasure.

It is in fact entirely possible to appeal to straight male gamers without alienating female gamers. I think Bioware usually does a good job at this, for the reasons berelinde mentioned.

Totally agree. What I'm trying to say is expect the main characters, and cover character, to be laced with sex appeal. The fact that straight males will be the main fanbase make it more likely that they will be prioritized when it comes to appeal than other sections of fans. Not guarenteed, but likely.

Someone you want to be or want to sleep with - it's a basic entertainment industry standard.

They don't even have to be good-looking - i watched Conan the Barbarian (2011 film) last night and my GF thought the main witch woman was sexy.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 17 décembre 2012 - 03:34 .

[berelinde]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

By far and away the biggest percentage of gamers are straight males - expect Bioware to market them as a priority.

Factually inaccurate. According to the Entertainment Software Association's 2011 report, females constitute 47% of the gaming population. Adult women outnumber teenage boys (30% compared to 18%).

[SpunkyMonkey]

berelinde wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

By far and away the biggest percentage of gamers are straight males - expect Bioware to market them as a priority.

Factually inaccurate. According to the Entertainment Software Association's 2011 report, females constitute 47% of the gaming population. Adult women outnumber teenage boys (30% compared to 18%).

So doesn't that mean males constitute as 53% of the market? Thus the bigger share? So factual what I'm saying is exactly correct? (100-47=53?)

And how does the adult male figure compare to adult female figure, and teenage females to teenage males? Comparing adult females to teenage lads is a cross-over in comparison.

I think you have mis-read the stats there.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 17 décembre 2012 - 03:47 .

[berelinde]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

berelinde wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

By far and away the biggest percentage of gamers are straight males - expect Bioware to market them as a priority.

Factually inaccurate. According to the Entertainment Software Association's 2011 report, females constitute 47% of the gaming population. Adult women outnumber teenage boys (30% compared to 18%).

So doesn't that mean males constitute as 53% of the market? Thus the bigger share? So factual what I'm saying is exactly correct?

And how does the adult male figure compare to adult female figure, and teenage females to teenage males? Comparing adult females to teenage lads is a cross-over in comparison.

I think you have mis-read the stats there.

My point was not to argue that 47 is bigger than 53. My point is that 6% is not an overwhelming majority. Depending on the sample size, it may not even be statistically significant. Claiming that straight male gamers "far and away" outnumber female gamers is inaccurate.

[smallwhippet]

@SpunkyMonkey: I think the adult female/ teenage boy comparison is simply an interesting statistic which challenges a common preconception about video game consumption.
As far as the other figures go: I would say that, while male gamers still outnumber their female counterparts, the difference is fairly narrow, and your assertion that ' by far and away the biggest percentage of gamers are straight males' seems questionable. I'm actually surprised that there's only a 6% difference between the two groups!

Edit: ninjad by @berelinde!

Modifié par smallwhippet, 17 décembre 2012 - 03:53 .

[Fiacre]

6% hardly "far bigger". And it doesn't say how many much of those 53% was straight, meaning that the actual percentage of straight male players is lower than 53%, which in turn makes the gap between straight male gamers and female gamers even smaller.

Besides, not appealing to female gamers when there are this many seems like a distinctly bad idea, anyway. And games that didn't have an oversexualized female character/buff "manly" man male character on the cover have sold well -- some mentioned Skyrim as an example.

[SpunkyMonkey]

smallwhippet wrote...

@SpunkyMonkey: I think the adult female/ teenage boy comparison is simply an interesting statistic which challenges a common preconception about video game consumption.
As far as the other figures go: I would say that, while male gamers still outnumber their female counterparts, the difference is fairly narrow, and your assertion that ' by far and away the biggest percentage of gamers are straight males' seems questionable. I'm actually surprised that there's only a 6% difference between the two groups!

It's only relevant if we can see the opposing stat though - Adult male gamers compared to teenage female gamers.

I'd expect more adult females to play more games than teenage lads as, when you are a teen, you have more free time and are more interested in other social things such as sex, friends, partying, etc. Whereas adult women will more likely have their time restrianed by work,children, and money - making gaming a sensible and easily accessable form of enjoyment.

[berelinde]

smallwhippet wrote...

@SpunkyMonkey: I think the adult female/ teenage boy comparison is simply an interesting statistic which challenges a common preconception about video game consumption.

Thanks, smallwhippet, I forgot to address that point, and now you've done it for me. 

[Daissran]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

As much as you may want the world to work your way, unfortunately it does not. that is just out and out fact - Morrigan was not a fat munter, Leliana wasn't a flat-chested dweeb, every woman in Kirkwall had implants for a reason, Edward from Twighlight isn't a beer-bellied man with hairy shoulders and Rihanna doesn't have a moustache.

As much as people would like to believe the Susan Boyle types can be as big a success based on their art alone, it's only true in very rare cases, and if the business end of the art has the opportunity to make something more sexually appealing then it will.

Fenris, was a blatent emo-trend cash in - why would you expect anything else from DA:3?

As much as you enjoy the world as it is, that doesn't mean things shouldn't change. I'm not saying Bioware won't use sex appeal to sell their products, I'm simply saying appealing to a wider audience means toning down the sex appeal pandering to the straight male.

I'm getting a vibe this bothers you?

Also, the examples you listed just make it clear you want all women in games to look perfect, busty and appeal to you sexually. Yes, I'm sure Edward is very handsome... but there are a range and variation of different male characters to compensate. The entire book isn't filled with beautiful men, there are the beer-bellied men, the gross, the kind, the old and the ugly. Whereas, in games you very RARELY get a variation for women.

Though, I'm hopeful. I think Bioware is changing that slowly and are becoming more inclusive of different women, but we shouldn't have to suffer anther pantsless, wet dream character again. I like Isabela, but I mean c'mon, why no PANTS?

[SpunkyMonkey]

Fiacre wrote...

6% hardly "far bigger". And it doesn't say how many much of those 53% was straight, meaning that the actual percentage of straight male players is lower than 53%, which in turn makes the gap between straight male gamers and female gamers even smaller.

Besides, not appealing to female gamers when there are this many seems like a distinctly bad idea, anyway. And games that didn't have an oversexualized female character/buff "manly" man male character on the cover have sold well -- some mentioned Skyrim as an example.

6%, in a selection of things with only 2 outcomes, is MASSIVE mate. That's a huge chunk of available sales too.

It also doesn't state how many of the females were gay females, so again that balances the figures out.

Just look at the evidence for yourselves - Christ ME:3 was worse than a bloody teen drama ala Orange County lol. These characters will get sexed up.

But here's to those making their voices heard who are against it - it's one of the things that ruined DA:2 for me.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 17 décembre 2012 - 04:06 .

[SpunkyMonkey]

Daissran wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

As much as you may want the world to work your way, unfortunately it does not. that is just out and out fact - Morrigan was not a fat munter, Leliana wasn't a flat-chested dweeb, every woman in Kirkwall had implants for a reason, Edward from Twighlight isn't a beer-bellied man with hairy shoulders and Rihanna doesn't have a moustache.

As much as people would like to believe the Susan Boyle types can be as big a success based on their art alone, it's only true in very rare cases, and if the business end of the art has the opportunity to make something more sexually appealing then it will.

Fenris, was a blatent emo-trend cash in - why would you expect anything else from DA:3?

As much as you enjoy the world as it is, that doesn't mean things shouldn't change. I'm not saying Bioware won't use sex appeal to sell their products, I'm simply saying appealing to a wider audience means toning down the sex appeal pandering to the straight male.

I'm getting a vibe this bothers you?

Also, the examples you listed just make it clear you want all women in games to look perfect, busty and appeal to you sexually. Yes, I'm sure Edward is very handsome... but there are a range and variation of different male characters to compensate. The entire book isn't filled with beautiful men, there are the beer-bellied men, the gross, the kind, the old and the ugly. Whereas, in games you very RARELY get a variation for women.

Though, I'm hopeful. I think Bioware is changing that slowly and are becoming more inclusive of different women, but we shouldn't have to suffer anther pantsless, wet dream character again. I like Isabela, but I mean c'mon, why no PANTS?

I'm not saying it shouldn't be challanged or be changed and it doesn't bother me in the slightest, if anything I think that DA:2's world full of implanted breasts was very offputting.

But I'm just being realistic, and I don't see any problem with female sexualiztation. I like looking at fit women, it's nice. Even though graphical representations are just that, they are still nice to look at.

[berelinde]

53-18=35 adult males
47-37=10 teenage females

Since, according to the article I linked, the average player age is 37 and the average purchaser age is 41. So let's take a look at the comparisons between adult males and adult females.

Adult males: 35%
Adult females: 37%

Which group is larger?

[Daissran]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Fiacre wrote...

6% hardly "far bigger". And it doesn't say how many much of those 53% was straight, meaning that the actual percentage of straight male players is lower than 53%, which in turn makes the gap between straight male gamers and female gamers even smaller.

Besides, not appealing to female gamers when there are this many seems like a distinctly bad idea, anyway. And games that didn't have an oversexualized female character/buff "manly" man male character on the cover have sold well -- some mentioned Skyrim as an example.

6%, in a selection of things with only 2 outcomes, is MASSIVE mate. That's a huge chunk of available sales too.

It also doesn't state how many of the females were gay females, so again that balances the figures out.

I think what Fiacre was pointing out was between specifically straight male gamers and female gamers (regardless of sexual orientation.)

[SpunkyMonkey]

Daissran wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Fiacre wrote...

6% hardly "far bigger". And it doesn't say how many much of those 53% was straight, meaning that the actual percentage of straight male players is lower than 53%, which in turn makes the gap between straight male gamers and female gamers even smaller.

Besides, not appealing to female gamers when there are this many seems like a distinctly bad idea, anyway. And games that didn't have an oversexualized female character/buff "manly" man male character on the cover have sold well -- some mentioned Skyrim as an example.

6%, in a selection of things with only 2 outcomes, is MASSIVE mate. That's a huge chunk of available sales too.

It also doesn't state how many of the females were gay females, so again that balances the figures out.

I think what Fiacre was pointing out was between specifically straight male gamers and female gamers (regardless of sexual orientation.)

Well, that's kinda an irrelevant comparison wouldn't you say? Kind of like comparing fastest female runner, and fastest male one-legged runner.

[SpunkyMonkey]

berelinde wrote...

53-18=35 adult males
47-37=10 teenage females

Since, according to the article I linked, the average player age is 37 and the average purchaser age is 41. So let's take a look at the comparisons between adult males and adult females.

Adult males: 35%
Adult females: 37%

Which group is larger?

Sorry, but I can't quite understand your workings and what they relate to. Please explain a bit more clearly.

In fact, regardless it doesn't really matter. If the main cover character isn't a sexy female on DA:3's cover I'll return and hold my hands up that I was wrong. Conversely, if it is I hope to see you do the same.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

And yes I would love to see a woman on the cover this time..

I second AND third that motion!! I'm tired of dudes being the marketing mascots (Sheploo, RikerHawke).

Someone with a face like hers!



Her name is Erika Tschirhart (Miss-Tschirhart on DeviantART where she also models by the name Piper). One of the loveliest women I've ever seen! :wub:

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 17 décembre 2012 - 04:34 .

[berelinde]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

berelinde wrote...

53-18=35 adult males
47-37=10 teenage females

Since, according to the article I linked, the average player age is 37 and the average purchaser age is 41. So let's take a look at the comparisons between adult males and adult females.

Adult males: 35%
Adult females: 37%

Which group is larger?

Sorry, but I can't quite understand your workings and what they relate to. Please explain a bit more clearly.

In fact, regardless it doesn't really matter. If the main cover character isn't a sexy female on DA:3's cover I'll return and hold my hands up that I was wrong. Conversely, if it is I hope to see you do the same.

It's simple mathematics.

We know that 53% of gamers are male and that 47% are female. We know that 18% of gamers are males 17 or younger and that 37% of gamers are females 18 or older.

Total male gamers (53%) = adult male gamers (35%) + teen male gamers (18%)
Total female gamers (47%) = adult female gamers (37%) + teen female gamers (10%)

Most people buying games are over 18 (average age 41). Dragon Age games are not intended for players under 17 in any event, so it makes sense to look at the numbers of adult players per gender.

Males: 35%
Females: 37%

Now, I will be the first to admit that 2% is not an overwhelming majority, but 37 is larger than 35. In the strictest sense. Earlier, you asserted that since the vast majority of gamers are male, it makes sense to market to the male demographic. Unfortunately, statistics do not support your argument. 

I do appreciate how confusing this must be. It contradicts many beloved  assumptions about the preeminence of male gamers. In perfect honesty, I'm as shocked to learn that adult male gamers are actually in the minority as anyone else, but it does illustrate how times are changing.

Modifié par berelinde, 17 décembre 2012 - 04:42 .

[Atalanta]

FreshIstay wrote...
Actually what I said is that Men shouldn't be belittled in the name of Women's equality. 

No, that's not what was in your deleted post. I'll send you a PM to help you remember what you said.

[The Elder King]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...



In fact, regardless it doesn't really matter. If the main cover character isn't a sexy female on DA:3's cover I'll return and hold my hands up that I was wrong. Conversely, if it is I hope to see you do the same.

You'll return it because you can't play a game where a female PC is in the cover?