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[SpunkyMonkey]

berelinde wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

berelinde wrote...

53-18=35 adult males
47-37=10 teenage females

Since, according to the article I linked, the average player age is 37 and the average purchaser age is 41. So let's take a look at the comparisons between adult males and adult females.

Adult males: 35%
Adult females: 37%

Which group is larger?

Sorry, but I can't quite understand your workings and what they relate to. Please explain a bit more clearly.

In fact, regardless it doesn't really matter. If the main cover character isn't a sexy female on DA:3's cover I'll return and hold my hands up that I was wrong. Conversely, if it is I hope to see you do the same.

It's simple mathematics.

We know that 53% of gamers are male and that 47% are female. We know that 18% of gamers are males 17 or younger and that 37% of gamers are females 18 or older.

Total male gamers (53%) = adult male gamers (35%) + teen male gamers (18%)
Total female gamers (47%) = adult female gamers (37%) + teen female gamers (10%)

Most people buying games are over 18 (average age 41). Dragon Age games are not intended for players under 17 in any event, so it makes sense to look at the numbers of adult players per gender.

Males: 35%
Females: 37%

Now, I will be the first to admit that 2% is not an overwhelming majority, but 37 is larger than 35. In the strictest sense.

I do appreciate how confusing this must be. It contradicts many beloved  assumptions about the preeminence of male gamers. In perfect honesty, I'm as shocked to learn that adult male gamers are actually in the minority as anyone else, but it does illustrate how times are changing.

Got you now!  Thanks for the more comprehensive explanation, much appriciatted.

Maybe BW should sit up and take note then!

[SpunkyMonkey]

hhh89 wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...



In fact, regardless it doesn't really matter. If the main cover character isn't a sexy female on DA:3's cover I'll return and hold my hands up that I was wrong. Conversely, if it is I hope to see you do the same.

You'll return it because you can't play a game where a female PC is in the cover?

Return to the thread, not return the game lol.

chances are I wo'tn't buy it anyway to be honest.

[Fiacre]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Daissran wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Fiacre wrote...

6% hardly "far bigger". And it doesn't say how many much of those 53% was straight, meaning that the actual percentage of straight male players is lower than 53%, which in turn makes the gap between straight male gamers and female gamers even smaller.

Besides, not appealing to female gamers when there are this many seems like a distinctly bad idea, anyway. And games that didn't have an oversexualized female character/buff "manly" man male character on the cover have sold well -- some mentioned Skyrim as an example.

6%, in a selection of things with only 2 outcomes, is MASSIVE mate. That's a huge chunk of available sales too.

It also doesn't state how many of the females were gay females, so again that balances the figures out.

I think what Fiacre was pointing out was between specifically straight male gamers and female gamers (regardless of sexual orientation.)

Well, that's kinda an irrelevant comparison wouldn't you say? Kind of like comparing fastest female runner, and fastest male one-legged runner.

Is it? Female sexualization isn't of interest to males not attracted to women, is it? And yeah, sure, those 47% will include non-straight women as well, but from my experience, even women attracted to women find oversexualization distasteful.

And as someone who is attracted to women... I find oversecualized characters unattractive. DA hasn't gone in that territory yet imho (not even Isabela -- I don't mind her lack of pants that much. I didn't even notice the first time I played through the game.), and I trust it to stay that way.

[berelinde]

It doesn't have to be an either/or scenario. An iconic female does not have to be unattractive, nor is there anything wrong with being sexy. Male and female gamers alike might enjoy promotional material featuring a beautiful, powerful female protagonist.

As a female gamer, I've never had a problem with female characters being portrayed as sexy or even seductive. The only time I've had a problem with it is where women are objectified or a particular character was portrayed as being sexier than the protagonist had the potential to be. I adore Isabela, for example, but the reason I love her is because she empowers the women around her while preserving their dignity. She challenges Aveline, allowing the latter to assert her femininity in ways that work with her personality and lifestyle, but she encourages Merrill more gently, simply being her friend and helping her understand that being different isn't so bad.

[Blue Gloves]

FreshIstay wrote...

WoW. I didnt even say anything offensive, but now the assumption will be that I did.
Im called "Old and Bitter" and somehow i get the short end of the stick. Lol. Society man.

It really is about equality when i boils down to it, Women want Women on the cover's of their games, good, why shouldnt they have them?

All Im saying is dont put down men in the process. What's wrong with that? :/

I think Allan doesn't want us to continue the conversation here, so I'd like to respect that, but if you want to PM me or start a new thread in off topic to discuss the matter, I'd be happy to oblige. 

[Gazardiel]

berelinde wrote...

It doesn't have to be an either/or scenario. An iconic female does not have to be unattractive, nor is there anything wrong with being sexy. Male and female gamers alike might enjoy promotional material featuring a beautiful, powerful female protagonist.

As a female gamer, I've never had a problem with female characters being portrayed as sexy or even seductive. The only time I've had a problem with it is where women are objectified or a particular character was portrayed as being sexier than the protagonist had the potential to be. I adore Isabela, for example, but the reason I love her is because she empowers the women around her while preserving their dignity. She challenges Aveline, allowing the latter to assert her femininity in ways that work with her personality and lifestyle, but she encourages Merrill more gently, simply being her friend and helping her understand that being different isn't so bad.

You make me want to try interacting more with Isabella in-game now!  I liked her confidence, but because my Hawke was a rogue, it was a bit redundant having her there, so I haven't gotten to see much of her character development yet.  I do want to do a "Charlie's Angels" run in the future with all the ladies (and female!Hawke) to challenge my playstyle; now I'm really looking forward to it because that sounds like a very positive model for female intrapersonal interaction.

And Isabella can keep on going without pants, as long as pants will be optional for some fit, attractive male characters in the future to give options to everyone (I suspect pantsless Cullen would get a lot of votes).

[ScotGaymer]

I just have one question.

Why has this thread gone on for 9 pages when it was clearly started by someone who was making some rather gross mysoginistic assumptions?

lol.

[Kidd]

berelinde wrote...

It doesn't have to be an either/or scenario. An iconic female does not have to be unattractive, nor is there anything wrong with being sexy. Male and female gamers alike might enjoy promotional material featuring a beautiful, powerful female protagonist.

As a female gamer, I've never had a problem with female characters being portrayed as sexy or even seductive. The only time I've had a problem with it is where women are objectified or a particular character was portrayed as being sexier than the protagonist had the potential to be. I adore Isabela, for example, but the reason I love her is because she empowers the women around her while preserving their dignity. She challenges Aveline, allowing the latter to assert her femininity in ways that work with her personality and lifestyle, but she encourages Merrill more gently, simply being her friend and helping her understand that being different isn't so bad.

Where's the darned like button!? This post is pure awesome!

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 17 décembre 2012 - 07:35 .

[JamieCOTC]

I like what ME3 did and what Bioshock Infinite is about to do, first they go w/ the safe white male on the cover, but offer an alternate cover to the fans. That said, the more gaming becomes integrated into our culture the more gender and race will have to factor into the advertising.

[upsettingshorts]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

I just have one question.

Why has this thread gone on for 9 pages when it was clearly started by someone who was making some rather gross mysoginistic assumptions?

lol.

Because the OP was called out for it early, and the thread was hijacked by everyone else into something salvagable?

[ScotGaymer]

I see.

Carry on then! lol.

[BubbleDncr]

My logic is this:

The "default" Warden who was in all the trailer and such for DA:O was a Male Warrior.
The "default" Hawke was a Male Mage.

Thus, it should be the Rogue's turn for DA3.

And while all the games have had male rogues that people love as characters, the only rogues that get featured in the trailers and such are the female ones. Because female rogues are sexy. The important traits of rogues are being quick, dexterous, and cunning - which, to me are more feminine traits when it comes to fighting. Just look at Captain America vs. the Black Widow. Or Hawkeye vs the Black Widow, if you want to compare two "rogues."

So, I think if us ladies ever have a chance of getting the "default" character of a DA game to be female, it will be with her styled as a rogue. Which should be the next default character, unless the devs are just shunning rogues.

[AlexanderCousland]

@Blue Gloves

You can pm me if you wish, or you can start the thread. Im sure you have the desire to converse, but Im not sure why you suggested that I should initiate the conversation.

[RUDAL]

It doesent really matter to me if the protagonist on the cover is male or female.
I always played a female character in games up until romance options were introduced and widely used in games.
Very often I would choose a girl instead of a bloke as my hero but knowing that I will have some one to fall in love with I choose male cause I want to follow that path and a girl - girl or man - man relationship doesnt really sit for me.

[Myrmedus]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

I just have one question.

Why has this thread gone on for 9 pages when it was clearly started by someone who was making some rather gross mysoginistic assumptions?

lol.

I have another question:

Why is it this forum seems to see the use of the word "mysogonist" and its various conjugative forms used all over the place as if it was as commonplace a word as "and" or "the"? Do you even know what the word means?

Have these forums become a nexus for uppity, over-sensitive individuals who to seem to WANT to take offence to anything and everything that they can?

I don't see any hate in the OP's post at all. There's a difference between disagreeing with someone and yelling that their attitude is one of hatred towards an entire sex. Pull the pole out of your arse, please.

As for the topic itself: I don't agree that DA is aimed towards females and I still think it's slightly leaning towards male gamers, however perhaps the impression comes across because it is a series that is somewhat more "balanced" in this regard compared to many other games which are just blatantly aimed at men.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 17 décembre 2012 - 10:13 .

[thats1evildude]

Myrmedus wrote...

Have these forums become a nexus for uppity, over-sensitive individuals who to seem to WANT to take offence to anything and everything that they can?

Mr. Pot, stop trying to deny Mr. Kettle from our country club because of his skin colour.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 17 décembre 2012 - 10:33 .

[Blue Gloves]

FreshIstay wrote...

@Blue Gloves

You can pm me if you wish, or you can start the thread. Im sure you have the desire to converse, but Im not sure why you suggested that I should initiate the conversation.

Oh sorry- you kept talking about your comment, so I assumed you wanted to speak about it or explain it further.  If you don't, then I can't really think of anything to say that I didn't say in my first post.

[d4eaming]

Myrmedus wrote...

Why is it this forum seems to see the use of the word "mysogonist" and its various conjugative forms used all over the place as if it was as commonplace a word as "and" or "the"? Do you even know what the word means?

Have these forums become a nexus for uppity, over-sensitive individuals who to seem to WANT to take offence to anything and everything that they can?

Because casual misogyny is a problem? If you're male, then you're already socially guided to not see it.

I love how pointing out gender inequality makes us "uppity". That there is a big fat clue that 1) you have no idea what you are even talking about, and 2) you're already towing the party line that women wanting equality means women want to gain power over men.

Good job.

[Fast Jimmy]

berelinde wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

By far and away the biggest percentage of gamers are straight males - expect Bioware to market them as a priority.
. 

Factually inaccurate. According to the Entertainment Software Association's 2011 report, females constitute 47% of the gaming population. Adult women outnumber teenage boys (30% compared to 18%).

What that study doesn't extrapolate is that it is taking mobile and social networking gaming and lumping it in with the same weight as more standard games

http://www.gamespot....e-study-6212734

A different study shows that only 28% of console gamers are female. Which, granted, excludes the PC platform, but consoles are one of the best yard sticks for more 'hardcore' gaming types. I doubt that the female PC DA players outnumber the male 10 to 1 to counter balance such a deficit. 

I'm glad female gaming is on the rise. And I don't really care if games are aimed at selling to platypuses, let alone women. But I do get riled up when this statistic is thrown around completely out of context. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 17 décembre 2012 - 11:00 .

[Sylvianus]

More females in dev's teams and in the gaming industry is a quicker way to improve things in this area, than the figures of the rise of female gamers that nobody is certain about. Different point of views from different people could do a lot more.

For example, most of devs in the gaming industry are white guys, and they naturally think that the pc would be a white guy, or that the fantasy world would contain almost only white guys. This is the same with this issue. Most of devs are mens and think as such.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 17 décembre 2012 - 11:22 .

[Darth Death]

I guess the resources poured into being a woman protagonist isn't enough to satisfy the feminist gamer, I see.

[Sylvianus]

I think it's fair to ask for an alternate cover with a female pc, an alternate trailer, and equality (basically the same content ) in the game. I don't think it's too much to ask in a rpg.

Anyways I don't even know what is a game aimed at men or women.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 17 décembre 2012 - 11:20 .

[Firky]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

And I don't really care if games are aimed at selling to platypuses, let alone women.

Might I recommend? http://freebirdgames.com/to_the_moon/ The platypus is a pivotal character, and this is an amazing game, anyway, male or female gamer.

[Blue Gloves]

Myrmedus wrote...


I don't see any hate in the OP's post at all. There's a difference between disagreeing with someone and yelling that their attitude is one of hatred towards an entire sex. Pull the pole out of your arse, please.

I think the problem (well, my problem, at any rate) is not that the OP offered up a hateful attitude towards women, but rather that he oh so magnanimously offered all us poor wimmin folk the dubious honor of being 'okay' with the fact that "DAO seems to be slanted more towards females."  I understand that OP was simply trying to state an opinion, and I'm not spewing any feminist nerd rage at him, but it does feel pretty awful to be condescended to, and whether that was OP's intention or not, that was exactly what he did.

The idea that the game is marketed for, or designed with women in mind is pretty silly. The game was designed with gamers in mind, but because there are a nearly equal number of options and features for female gamers as for males, many individuals who have been raised with a certain viewpoint automatically assumes that the game must be made for women.  Personally, that viewpoint doesn't make me angry- just sad.   Most of us live in a society that tells us that men and women are equal but presents us with endless examples of how this is not so.  The OP's (and many others') confusion as to why their comments were offensive is just further evidence of that.

All that being said: rage isn't the way to correct unconscious attitudes of superiority or entitlement, instruction is.  The OP's post was offensive to several devs and forumites, he was told so and (mostly) civil discourse has followed.  If we don't recognize and talk about issues like this, even on such small platforms as a thread in a gaming forum, we'll never be able to change them.

[Blue Gloves]

Darth Death wrote...

I guess the resources poured into being a woman protagonist isn't enough to satisfy the feminist gamer, I see.

Nope.  Unfortunately, it's equality or nothing with us dastardly feminists.