51 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

It's not evil because it's the only really sure way to spare other innocent lives. Leaving Redcliffe with Connor still possessed is irresponsible, and trusting an inept mage to do a dodgy blood magic ritual is asking for trouble.

I did this on a couple characters, and though it's wrenching, I look at the village child you see laid out for burning with his parents and that reinforces the rationale.

Modifié par Addai67, 02 janvier 2013 - 06:24 .

[Gamer Ftw]

Evil is in the eye of the beholder.
It is the quickest way to solve the problem without dark magic,so I consider it justified IF you distrust blood magic.

[ejoslin]

A little boy, by allowing a demon inside himself, caused dozens of deaths. His intentions were selfish, though not bad. He is susceptible to demon possession no matter what -- in essence, he failed his harrowing and if he had been a commoner, his death would not have been questioned.

All that said, if you leave, you are leaving an abomination alone for days, one who has repeatedly killed, in order to maybe save just one person. Why is Connor's life more valuable than the people of the village? It's not like he will be allowed to be heir of the Arling.

Actually, I can't imagine the templars even allowing the mages to leave to try to kill a demon inside an abomination. Wouldn't there be a very real concern that the demon would take over more mages? So basically, you are leaving on a fools errand -- one that can have deadly consequences, and which logically should not have a happy ending.

I find the tower solution the most evil of the options, even though it does have the best ending. I really wish there had been realistic consequences. Either the demon doing further damage or the templars taking over, or the most likely, both.  Templars hear of the abomination, go to kill him, and arrive at a burning Redcliff.

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 janvier 2013 - 05:07 .

[GeneralUsana]

The way I see it from an RP point of view. First I have cleared the mage tower before hand so I know it is clear. And second it isn't like my whole party adventures with me at once. As Alistair, Leliana, Dog, and I venture to the Circle I can leave behind Shale, Morrigan, Wynne, and Sten to keep things in line. Or in a pinch Dog and I alone could probably manage a run to the circle and back safely and I could leave Alistair and Leliana behind as backup as well. If only Dog and I went I could have Morrigan and Wynne magically lock the demon in place(force field it repeatedly perhaps? or some other kind of magical prison) and Shale, Sten, Alistair, and Leliana with instructions to take care of any miscreants it conjures. In a worst case scenario I could leave instructions to Sten to do what is needed. Probably best to do that out of earshot of Alistair though.

The real question is how long it would take Dog and I to run to the Circle. Clearly I am not talking a march here, but a marathon run. Given how smart the Mabaris are I could probably tie a message to Dog and send him alone. I don't doubt that Dog could run faster and farther than I could. The only problem would be getting someone to actually listen to Dog. However, this is Fereldon we are talking about. If a Mabari came running up with a message tied to its collar I have a feeling they would be far more likely to take it seriously than your average fantasy person. Particularly since this very hound was there defending the Circle not too long ago. Still would be safer if I myself went. But depending on how important time was(Wynne could give me an estimate of how long she and Morrigan could contain it) I could put faith in the hound to deliver the message.


Of course a Warden who is focused on the darkspawn likely wouldn't take this risk. It would burn the power of the two mages you have gathered and it would take precious time away from your campaign while also risking your few members. All for what, 1 child's life? A child who dabled in demon summoning and is already responsible for countless deaths? Yeah, my current warden won't be showing sympathy! Too much risk for too little gain and with the darkspawn looming around the corner . . .

[Addai]

The risk is lower than it had been prior to your arrival, granted. You've already killed most of the abominations and even the demon recognizes you have the upper hand at that point ("you've spoiled my fun"). Also "just kill him to be safe" is a templar way of thinking and not necessarily the best mindset. Not to bring in a sensitive topic, but people in Thedas need to live with the danger of magic in the way we live with the presence of guns. There is value in navigating a middle way.

I think it all depends on the RP perspective of the character. My Dalish Warden killed Connor because that's how I imagine the Dalish handle abominations- not like they can get buckets of lyrium. My Andrastian PCs abhor blood magic and look for any way not to use it. My elven blood mage trusted herself to handle the risk of going into the Fade and took Isolde's offer to be a sacrifice. None of them are "evil" choices. It's a very well written quest.

Modifié par Addai67, 03 janvier 2013 - 04:47 .

[Reaverwind]

Firstly, "saving" Connor requires operating on the premise that there actually is anything to save. Demons are regarded as masters of deception - it doesn't take much of a stretch to view Connor's "re-emergence" as nothing more than a cruel ploy to keep his mother and others dancing to the demon's tune.

Secondly, "saving" Connor requires accepting the assistance of someone who has a proven track record of being untrustworthy and incompetent, OR traipsing off and ignoring the other lives hanging in the balance while hoping the demon will sit in a corner awaiting your return. Both of those strike me as highly irresponsible, and quite frankly, nuts.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I don't understand the use of quotation marks. Just because Connor's reemergence might be faked (I do not believe that to be the case, but it may well be) doesn't mean there's nothing left, and there's a party dialogue indicating that the tactic used against the demon in this case has worked in the past. The demon "changes" people, but does not destroy them.

[Addai]

The only real way to assure yourself that the demon is gone is to destroy it yourself as a mage PC, but the fact that this is possible shows that it can in fact be done. I mean, the demon's dead and Connor's not, and he's no longer acting crazy- what does that tell you? If you're going to start killing mage children because of the potential they can be possessed, then...

[GeneralUsana]

Reaverwind wrote...

OR traipsing off and ignoring the other lives hanging in the balance while hoping the demon will sit in a corner awaiting your return. Both of those strike me as highly irresponsible, and quite frankly, nuts.

You don't have to hope. It doesn't take 8+ party members to run to the Circle and back. Send a message with a token force and keep the rest behind to contain the demon, with orders to finish things if needed.

Inefficient if your goal is simply to stop the blight, but a 'hero' character often does inefficent things just to save one life.

[Reaverwind]

GeneralUsana wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

OR traipsing off and ignoring the other lives hanging in the balance while hoping the demon will sit in a corner awaiting your return. Both of those strike me as highly irresponsible, and quite frankly, nuts.

You don't have to hope. It doesn't take 8+ party members to run to the Circle and back. Send a message with a token force and keep the rest behind to contain the demon, with orders to finish things if needed.

Inefficient if your goal is simply to stop the blight, but a 'hero' character often does inefficent things just to save one life.

This isn't about doing things inefficiently - this about weighing ONE life against many.

[GeneralUsana]

Reaverwind wrote...

This isn't about doing things inefficiently - this about weighing ONE life against many.

The risk isn't that great if you leave behind a number of your party to keep things contained. You already gained the upper hand. And obviously if containment fails then you simply end things(or leave orders behind to that effect). The risk you are taking on is rather low(and since you end things the moment you lose containment it isn't really likely that there will be further life lost) and the gain is potentially the life of one child. . .

Traditional Heroic type individuals just wouldn't be able to resist such odds. More realistic individuals likely would consider the chance of gain and the value of the gain to be far too marginal compared to taking on additional unneccesary risk(no mater how slight) when you have the darkspawn to deal with(every second you take enlisting the circle is a second you give the darkspawn to advance, the demon at that point may be a marginal risk, but the darkspawn are an ever growing threat).

[andy6915]

Okay, first off, I don't see killing a child as inherently evil. No more so then killing someone of any age. Example, in the Afghan war the USA has had for the last decade, child soldiers are often used against US soldiers. Is it evil to kill the child who is currently shooting a rifle at you with the express mission of killing you and your side? No, not any more then killing any other soldier. Murder and killing is murder and killing, the age is just an irrelevant detail. On the point, killing Connor isn't really worse or better then killing Isolde.

Secondly, about the trip to the circle tower. Don't know about the rest of you, but I killed every single creature in the castle. Every last one. Even if it makes more, it will have only about 6 people to make undead out of. What are 6 undead going to do against all of Redcliffe? Not much at all. The desire demon was pretty much just stuck waiting and hoping, because it had no courses left. Even if it attacked, a single desire demon won't beat the entire castle. So she was stuck, absolutely stuck and without help. A two week trip wasn't going to effect anything.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

1: You're probably right, even if I have to hold my nose saying so.

2: The desire demon by itself was ridiculously powerful. It probably wouldn't need the undead to take out Isolde, maybe Teagan too. And it, with the six guardsmen you have to kill and those suits of armor? Ser Perth and his men are reanimated, even if the victory is phyrric for it, and then set loose on the unsuspecting village that may or may not have any more militiamen left. And this is without the fact that, iirc, there are more undead in the wing of the castle Connor takes refuge in.

[andy6915]

I go into the siderooms and upstairs to kill every single enemy that is there. I even go up to Connor and talk to him, making sure to avoid Eamon's room. It's true that there are a few corpses around Connor that can be reanimated, but those are only there for emergency. It won't use them, it wouldn't make sense to. And even if it did, they would be easily killed.

Besides, as that other guy says, you can easily imagine leaving half your party behind to handle things. A few zombies and one desire demon versus 6 knights and half my party full of badasses? Unfair fight... For the demon.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

andy69156915 wrote...

I go into the siderooms and upstairs to kill every single enemy that is there. I even go up to Connor and talk to him, making sure to avoid Eamon's room. It's true that there are a few corpses around Connor that can be reanimated, but those are only there for emergency. It won't use them, it wouldn't make sense to. And even if it did, they would be easily killed.

It makes perfect sense to let those loose on Ser Perth, Jowan, maybe even Teagan and Isolde, if the threat that just destroyed it's entire army is now gone. And it then makes perfect sense to go out recruiting among the village. Why would the demon assume you're not coming back with more like you?

Besides, as that other guy says, you can easily imagine leaving half your party behind to handle things. A few zombies and one desire demon versus 6 knights and half my party full of badasses? Unfair fight... For the demon.

You can imagine that, yeah, but I don't think that's what happens. And those six knights? However strong they are in gameplay, lorewise Connor is in a perfect position to tear right through them. There's a reason nothing you can do to prepare the militia helps keep it alive if you ditch Redcliffe.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 12 janvier 2013 - 04:12 .

[andy6915]

The threat isn't gone. You don't think that's what happens? So it makes more sense to leave the rest of the party at the campsite then in the nice and warm castle, able to defend it if needed as well? I think sending everyone to a campsite makes less sense then simple leaving them in the castle.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

andy69156915 wrote...

The threat isn't gone. You don't think that's what happens? So it makes more sense to leave the rest of the party at the campsite then in the nice and warm castle, able to defend it if needed as well? I think sending everyone to a campsite makes less sense then simple leaving them in the castle.

I think it makes a good deal less sense to move the party to the camp. But I'm still pretty sure that's what happens according to the gameplay.

[andy6915]

So... You agree? I just said you think sending people to camp when you're already in the castle doesn't make sense, which is exactly what I said.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

andy69156915 wrote...

So... You agree? I just said you think sending people to camp when you're already in the castle doesn't make sense, which is exactly what I said.

Yeah, but with the additional note that whatever the player's headcanon, it seems the Warden does that thing which doesn't make a lick of sense.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 12 janvier 2013 - 05:54 .

[katattax]

Well, Bann Teagan seemed to be doing an adequate job of "entertaining" Connor whilst I sorted out the undead so I ran to the Circle and got them to do the ritual. Like GeneralUsana said, you can RP that you left your other companions there to keep an eye on him when you get help too. From a personal perspective, I can't bear killing children, even if they are just pixels, so that obviously influenced my decision.

[Andronic0s]

I normally go to the tower if my character is a mage since I imagine he knows that he can help by doing the Lyrium ritual, plus he won't risk antagonizing Eamon who is a complete unknown to him, couple that with the fact that going to the tower is easy given that the castle and the tower are on opposite shores of a lake, both have docks and boats are available in redcliffe.

If my characters are not mages I always let Isolde kill herself since my human noble PCs think that placing the entire town (and the hundreds! of kids within it) at risk while going off to save a single life seems awfully negligent for a ruler.

[Bionuts]

Doing anything else than killing Connor makes me feel like an idiot. Not judging anyone else.

Not sure what the big deal is about killing a child. Life is life.

He's an abomination, and would be killed on sight by any Templar.

[frostajulie]

Surprisingly I recently played a cousland who simply could not kill Connor after what happened to Oren. She abhorred Blood Magic but could not bear to leave the village unprotected. I guess 7 months later the answer is "it depends on how you rp your warden"

[kalasaurus]

It was rather "justified" for my Warden who annulled the Circle and released Jowan. She had no other options. Though, really, I just wanted to screw Eamon over as much as possible (she also abandoned Redcliffe, and I was sad I couldn't defile the Ashes before taking a pinch for him :'( ).

[Urdnot Amenark]

I had a problem afterward but I got over it. I think I'll try the Fade route next playthrough.