292 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

It's not the Reapers; it's merely the way the Crucible works. Someone has to activate it. Shepard does. In one ending he survives against impossible odds. In the other two, he freely chooses death for the sake of all life. It's sad, but it lacks the despairing quality of say being mauled by a banshee fifteen minutes prior. There's a place for heroic, noble death even in choice-driven games.

[Iakus]

jtav wrote...

It's not the Reapers; it's merely the way the Crucible works. Someone has to activate it. Shepard does. In one ending he survives against impossible odds. In the other two, he freely chooses death for the sake of all life. It's sad, but it lacks the despairing quality of say being mauled by a banshee fifteen minutes prior. There's a place for heroic, noble death even in choice-driven games.

It's the way Bioware made the Crucible work.  There is no reason why Shepard couldn't live in any/all of the choices, save Bioware makes it thus.

And no, Shepard does not "freely choose" any of the options, it's either choose and die, or refuse to choose and die.

[Xellith]

jtav wrote...

 In one ending he survives against impossible odds.

If thats what you choose to interpret.

[fiendishchicken]

There is. But BW loves to imply that that's the only choice. I'd rather have the ultimate survivor, the one who was so stubborn that he even managed to beat the Reapers. I choose for Shepard to live every time.

[Dr_Extrem]

jtav wrote...

It's not the Reapers; it's merely the way the Crucible works. Someone has to activate it. Shepard does. In one ending he survives against impossible odds. In the other two, he freely chooses death for the sake of all life. It's sad, but it lacks the despairing quality of say being mauled by a banshee fifteen minutes prior. There's a place for heroic, noble death even in choice-driven games.

the catalyst is the representation of the reapers. the crucible is only a powersource. the catalyst could do something else - it just does not want to .. it dictates, that shepard has to die, to execute one of the catalysts options.

the fact that shepard can survive in one ending, is an "accident".

there is no heroic or noble death .. only death.

[o Ventus]

jtav wrote...

I don't see Shepard's death as tragic in the EC. He dies but he dies *for* something. Humanity will live on at or beyond pre-war levels. Characters he cares for have good lives. He defeated gods. The cycle is ended once and for all. If his death is tragic, so is the death of every martyr, every firefighter who ran into a burning building. It's heroic, not tragic.

To the general public, a death might be heroic, because they weren't well acquainted with person who died. But to their friends and family and loved ones, that death will be the most painful thing on could experience.

The terms of his death are irrelevant. If Shepard is dead, somebody is going to be devastated.

[fiendishchicken]

As we say in the military, 'the medal of honor is nice, but we'd all rather get home safe and in one piece.'

Yes there is going to be death. But we structure our military training so that it is as comprehensive as possible. While accomplishing the mission is the ultimate goal, everyone comes home. We make sure everyone comes home, to the absolute best of our ability. And Shepard is going to come home to Miranda after accomplishing his mission of destroying the Reapers.

[N7Gold]

OP, BioWare always underestimates our feelings. They didn't even know we wanted a romance with Tali and Garrus.

[Dr_Extrem]

fiendishchicken wrote...

As we say in the military, 'the medal of honor is nice, but we'd all rather get home safe and in one piece.'

Yes there is going to be death. But we structure our military training so that it is as comprehensive as possible. While accomplishing the mission is the ultimate goal, everyone comes home. We make sure everyone comes home, to the absolute best of our ability. And Shepard is going to come home to Miranda after accomplishing his mission of destroying the Reapers.

we firefighters (even if only on a voluntary base), say basicly the same (though "hanseaten" dont wear medals). we dont leave our comrades to die.

the crew is more important than material.

[jtav]

Oh, I'd rather he live than die. But he's put in a situation where the chance for survival is very low to nil. And that's perfectly valid storytelling, especially when you consider what the death accomplished.

[Reorte]

jtav wrote...

Oh, I'd rather he live than die. But he's put in a situation where the chance for survival is very low to nil. And that's perfectly valid storytelling, especially when you consider what the death accomplished.

No it isn't because as a means of defeating the Reapers it's ridiculously contrived. Even if it wasn't ridiculously contrived it would make just as much sense for the Crucible to do its thing without killing Shepard (probably more). Finally, if you end up in a situation where someone's life unarguably has to be thrown away you've probably screwed up somewhere else on the way there.

[Dr_Extrem]

jtav wrote...

Oh, I'd rather he live than die. But he's put in a situation where the chance for survival is very low to nil. And that's perfectly valid storytelling, especially when you consider what the death accomplished.

what the death might accomplish. shepard cant be sure.

its maybe valid story telling .. but not good one. especially, if the whole series, is build up upon not giving up.


the catalyst could just shut down the reapers or let them fly off .. its solution does not work anymore .. its own words. it just does not want to end the war on our terms .. it dictates shepard how to end it.

[Iakus]

jtav wrote...

Oh, I'd rather he live than die. But he's put in a situation where the chance for survival is very low to nil. And that's perfectly valid storytelling, especially when you consider what the death accomplished.

But it's not perfectly valid gameplay.  And ths is supposed to be both.

Telling the player "Your character must die" to complete the game essentually defeats the very point of having a choice-based game.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Bioware, Casey Hudson repeatedly said "you are Shepard." Then he kills me in the end. There is no way in hell for anyone to survive that explosion which is about the force of a tactical nuclear device at ground zero, unless Shepard wasn't there in the first place, and that my friends has never been answered, nor do they ever intend to answer that question. This is called a bullfeces open ending. So they killed me.

It took a community member to mod the game and come up with something that gives closure to the epic adventure, and it gets rid of the most offensive part of the game. So what if it is "non-canon." I don't care. Bioware said there is no canon to the ending, so it doesn't matter anyway. This is MY canon ending. It's the only way I can play the story.

"You are Shepard." -- Casey Hudson

I want to live.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 17 décembre 2012 - 09:23 .

[Dr_Extrem]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Bioware, Casey Hudson repeatedly said "you are Shepard." Then he kills me in the end. There is no way in hell for anyone to survive that explosion which is about the force of a tactical nuclear device at ground zero, unless Shepard wasn't there in the first place, and that my friends has never been answered, nor do they ever intend to answer that question. This is called a bullfeces open ending. So they killed me.

It took a community member to mod the game and come up with something that gives closure to the epic adventure, and it gets rid of the most offensive part of the game. So what if it is "non-canon." I don't care. Bioware said there is no canon to the ending, so it doesn't matter anyway. This is MY canon ending. It's the only way I can play the story.

"You are Shepard." -- Casey Hudson

I want to live.

well .. killing your customers is a bad attitude.

i was killed as well .. hopefully, i am only mostly dead.

[Ieldra]

iakus wrote...

jtav wrote...

It's not the Reapers; it's merely the way the Crucible works. Someone has to activate it. Shepard does. In one ending he survives against impossible odds. In the other two, he freely chooses death for the sake of all life. It's sad, but it lacks the despairing quality of say being mauled by a banshee fifteen minutes prior. There's a place for heroic, noble death even in choice-driven games.

It's the way Bioware made the Crucible work.  There is no reason why Shepard couldn't live in any/all of the choices, save Bioware makes it thus.

So you didn't want a story with a sacrifice theme. Bioware wrote a story with one. You didn't like it. End of story. You can rightly complain about the way Bioware made the sacrifice work (or not), but not about that it's a part of the story. The latter is a matter of taste, and anyway you can't say you didn't see it coming. You could see it coming from a far way back - from the start of ME2, actually.

And no, Shepard does not "freely choose" any of the options, it's either choose and die, or refuse to choose and die.

Choose Destroy and live, choose Control and be transformed, choose Synthesis and die. Nobody forces you to take any specific one. Freedom doesn't mean you have infinite options. Reality constrains what you can do, in RL as well as in interactive stories. Also, situations where none of the options are to your liking are rather common in RL as well. I don't see any problem, except that, unfortunately, you like none of the options. That's too bad for you, and I sympathize, but it isn't a flaw in the story that you like none of them.

[Ieldra]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
No, it's not left intentionally ambiguous. There is NOTHING ambiguous about that scene. Shepard survives.  Period. That it's open to "Shepard dies in the next minute" may be true, but that's akin to saying "Yes, we see a living civlization in the epilogue, but the galaxy can explode in the next minute." It's a fanfic headcanon scenario not ruled out by the scene. Do you now expect Bioware to make endings that eplicitly contradicts any headcanon anyone else dislikes? You can be sure we'd end up with a scenario almost on one likes.

So, you're comparing a beaten and bloody body exposed to previous explosions and possibly vacuum in outer space buried in heavy debris - with a galaxy rotating along all by itself in the universe? Really?

Look, Bioware did it with ME2, I'm not sure why you suddenly think they can't make an ending that makes most fans happy.

As I said before. Shepard has beaten the odds several times. Reasonably, he shouldn't even be alive any more. Yet, he is, and no one complains that "given the situation, it's extremely unlikely he's alive". Why is it so hard to accept that the breath scene means that Shepard has beated the odds yet again? If you see it that way, isn't it awesome in a way?

Of course Bioware could show things differently. But it's a silly complaint. If they made sure that Shepard unequivocally died in every ending, THEN you'd have a cause for complaining. As it is, I find it incomprehensible.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 décembre 2012 - 09:50 .

[Peranor]

Getting attached to the characters in a character driven game is kind of unexpected and not very logical. I understand why Bioware thought the way they did. As usual their reasoning was sound and infallible.

[Iakus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

So you didn't want a story with a sacrifice theme. Bioware wrote a story with one. You didn't like it. End of story. You can rightly complain about the way Bioware made the sacrifice work (or not), but not about that it's a part of the story. The latter is a matter of taste, and anyway you can't say you didn't see it coming. You could see it coming from a far way back - from the start of ME2, actually.

Ieldra, that's not what I said at all.  You can have a game with sacrifice as a theme and not force the player character to die.  Dragon Age:  Origins did it very well.

That's what the problem is:  forcing it.  And no, it's not something I saw coming from a mile a way.  Certainly not in ME2, as for Shepard death proved to be a rather temporary condition and I got through a "Suicide Mission" with zero casualties.

Choose Destroy and live, choose Control and be transformed, choose Synthesis and die. Nobody forces you to take any specific one. Freedom doesn't mean you have infinite options. Reality constrains what you can do, in RL as well as in interactive stories. Also, situations where none of the options are to your liking are rather common in RL as well. I don't see any problem, except that, unfortunately, you like none of the options. That's too bad for you, and I sympathize, but it isn't a flaw in the story that you like none of them.

Saying "Choose Destroy and live" iis like giving someone a single bean and calling it a feast.

Shepard showed more signs of life spinning off into space in a leaking suit in ME2 than what we saw in the breath scene.

Look, I know you like Synthesis and thus have an ending you can work towards and enjoy.  But Bioware screwed up royally with a lot of other fans in a way it was rather a no-brainer to see and avoid (at least, imo)

Bioware thought a single breath from a faceless, frakked up torso lying in rubble was "good enough" No.  It isn't.

Modifié par iakus, 17 décembre 2012 - 10:05 .

[Iakus]

Ieldra2 wrote...
As I said before. Shepard has beaten the odds several times. Reasonably, he shouldn't even be alive any more. Yet, he is, and no one complains that "given the situation, it's extremely unlikely he's alive". Why is it so hard to accept that the breath scene means that Shepard has beated the odds yet again? If you see it that way, isn't it awesome in a way?

Of course Bioware could show things differently. But it's a silly complaint. If they made sure that Shepard unequivocally died in every ending, THEN you'd have a cause for complaining. As it is, I find it incomprehensible.

Why is it so difficult to understand that showing a single breath isn't enough?  This is a visual medium.  Images, and the context they have, hold meaning beyond simple intent.  What the image conveys is not necessarilly what it means.  In the face of the horrific choices, the destruction wreaked by the endings. Something more than one breath is needed to inspire hope.

Compare the breath scene with the SCene fro Shepard in ME1.  Both feature a wrecked Citadel, sad companions who believe Shepard to be dead.

 But in ME1, we see Shepard climb out of the rubble.  Wounded but alive, with triumphant music in the background.  Anderson, the squadmates, and an Alliance resscue team are there to greet him/her

In ME3, there's only the sound of wind.  There's nobody there to help.  No Shepard climbing to his/her feet.  Jut mournful music which gets slightly more upbeat at the very last moment, followed by a single breath.  That's not a conclusion, that's a tease.

[DeinonSlayer]

@iakus

It's enough for some, but evidently not all. Polls I've done consistently show 2/3rds of respondents, at least, accept that Shepard lives.

[jtav]

But in any other context, we know what that means. If this were a film, our immediate reaction would be, "Sequel bait" and not because there's any doubt as to him surviving otherwise. If you're determined to say he died, so be it. But if you're this unhappy, move on. There are other games and other fandoms that will give you what you want.

[Iakus]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

@iakus

It's enough for some, but evidently not all. Polls I've done consistently show 2/3rds of respondents, at least, accept that Shepard lives.

But is that saying the accept the intention of the scene, or that they're content with the presentation?

One can intellectually understand the meaning of a scene, yet still have a negative emotional reaction to how it was portrayed.

[DeinonSlayer]

iakus wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

@iakus

It's enough for some, but evidently not all. Polls I've done consistently show 2/3rds of respondents, at least, accept that Shepard lives.

But is that saying the accept the intention of the scene, or that they're content with the presentation?

One can intellectually understand the meaning of a scene, yet still have a negative emotional reaction to how it was portrayed.

I'd say the former. Post-EC, I'm "content" with where things end up, but it's still pretty off the rails narrative-wise, and there's a limit to how deep I'll wade into Starbrat's bull**** while the fleet's fighting and dying outside.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 17 décembre 2012 - 10:29 .

[tanisha__unknown]

OP: I was asking myself the exact same question after I finished the game? Why do I care for the main character, after all it's just a video game, not real life. I didn't find an answer yet.